Reptile & Amphibian Forums

In an attempt to conjure up some type of philosophical discussion on this forum (perish the thought!), I am interested in hearing others' thoughts on why we see such a profound fascination or obsession with holding one's captive, whether it be a monitor, snake, gecko, turtle, etc.? After all, we see posts which address handling captives on almost a daily basis.

What is the psychological basis for this inherent "need" to handle one's captives, since I think we can all admit to going through this "phase" at some point in our reptile keeping years. Is this desire based around mankind's need to be superior to all other living organisms, where handling a submissive animal gives them a feeling of dominance?

As I have long-moved past the "pet reptile" stage in my life, and now appreciate my captives for what they are, and gain much enjoyment from observing natural behaviors, I cannot recall what appealed to me in the first place when I was younger, and I find it difficult now to see the enjoyment in handling or restraining a captive. What aspect of handling an animal brings about enjoyment or satisfaction? Is it the feel/touch of the animal crawling on oneself? Is it the dominance issue mentioned above?

I am not referring to keepers wanting to 'tame' animals so that they are more manageable for maintenence, feeding, etc., I am referring to the allure of reptile handling in its most basic form- handling reptiles because people 'like to'.

Why do they like it?

Any thoughts?

hey Bob. good luck on your pursuit for discussion here, but I'll take a stab at it. I think this question would be good for the septiczone forum based on the fact that many young teens frequent their and often post threads about handling and taming.

I personally believe that only youngsters and/or newbies are interested in handling to satisfy some sort of ego and to boost their confidence. I think it offers a sense of superiority and bravery over an animal that is feared by the majority of the human population...especially females. To be able to display this dominance of a potentially dangerous and notoriously misunderstood animal in front of friends, aquointances and or who ever will provide gratification to the handler, and will appear to have some weird kind of power over these exotic animals, like Steve Irwin or something like that.

As you said I'm sure all of us have gone through that phase early on and thankfully it usually passes quickly as the keeper gains some experience and knowledge.
cheers

>>
>>I personally believe that only youngsters and/or newbies are interested in handling to satisfy some sort of ego and to boost their confidence. I think it offers a sense of superiority and bravery over an animal that is feared by the majority of the human population...especially females. To be able to display this dominance of a potentially dangerous and notoriously misunderstood animal in front of friends, aquointances and or who ever will provide gratification to the handler, and will appear to have some weird kind of power over these exotic animals, like Steve Irwin or something like that.
>>
>>As you said I'm sure all of us have gone through that phase early on and thankfully it usually passes quickly as the keeper gains some experience and knowledge

Youngsters or newbies or....you missed this group....people who simply need to constantly possess things they are intimidated by or they think will intimidate others. I think of it as 'Big Dog Syndrome'. There is a whole lot of the populace that never outgrows the need to have a 'Big Dog'...of whatever animal group. Some people never outgrow it and generally make a pain of themselves always looking for badder and bigger. They don't care about the animal, just how it makes them look.

I don't think that the touching and handling is always some dominance thing or superiority thing, though many folks do ask to hold a reptile for just that initially. (I work in a pet store and people genuinely want to learn to overcome their ignorance and fear)
But it is simply a learning process. Many people learn by touching and holding. My old Gran used to say people that are 'Doers' not just 'Thinkers'.
I personally learn by holding an animal. Sometimes something looks one way and is another. (Ball Pythons that look robust but feel hollow) It isn't just for general keeper analysis, it is to simply add another dimension to the learning that is started with seeing and hearing.

Nor do I think it has to do with sexism, but rather level of experience. As many of our customers are convincing their husband as their wife that a reptile really is as good or better a pet than a tank of fish.
I personally can not remember a time when I didn't know what a snake or turtle felt like. My cognitive conceit does not stop me from hefting a animal to judge it's weight or from simply enjoying interacting by letting one climb on me or tread through my hands. It is one way of communicating with the animal.
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Sonya

I'm not mean. You're just a sissy.
Happy Bunny

"Septiczone". That is funny. Those kids are ignorant but I am glad that they are trying to learn. But they are learning from other ignorant kids and it is scarey. I tell them to come here but I am sure they get scared and go cuddle with their herps
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Shannon in Reno
1 savannah monitor (Pombe-means "beer" in Swahili)
6 dogs
1 cat
36 rats
40 mice
54 chickens
3 beardies
1 black rat snake
~1000 hissers
1 giant milipede

I think people find holding reptiles to be the equilivant of having a dog sit on their lap or petting a cat.

Personally, I got into keeping reptiles and field herping in order to 'observe' and 'care for'....handling was never been a factor. I do not handle my snakes and lizards very often, but I watch them all the time. Maybe I am the odd ball.

I'm an ol' man (57) who's been chasing and catching reptiles of many sorts for most of 50 years. Wild caughts mostly here in Michigan, but elsewhere when I come across them. It started as a simple fascination with the appearance and the feel of the different kinds. I simply like to get a close look at them I guess. Guess I'm still that kid. I don't do it near as much now, but I'll still wrap a snake around my neck and wander round the house now and then.

Quig
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Don't interupt me when I'm talkin' to myself

I think much of the need to handle reptiles comes from people seeing them as a companion such as a cat or dog, where affection would be reciprocated to an extent. Of course the more involved you become in the keeping of reptiles, the more you realize that this is not the case. But I think most keepers eventually grow out of that phase and learn to enjoy their reptiles for what they are.

To an extent, I think most of us probably wanted to handle our reptiles when we first entered the hobby. I know I did when I was 10 or 11 years old and bought my first iguana (a very surly one at that). Of course, as I owned more and more different types of reptiles I gradually learned to appreciate them for their interesting behaviors and completely lost the need to handle them.

Of course, there's always some people who just want the macho element of it, especially when it comes to large monitors, constrictors, or venomous animals. There are always some idiots who want to show their domination or lack of fear over a potentially dangerous animal.

While i can only speak for myself and not others,my interest in handleing is neither based in dominance or being "macho" and seeing as i'm not a kid (i'm 45)thats not it either.The way i see it is i like to interact with them while im able. That is while their still small and can be handeled with out worring about a disfiguring bite. My croc. is about 8 inches snout to vent i figure i got about another month or so tops, before she turns into what i call a display monitor. You know "look but dont touch and sure as hell dont let her crawl around on your arm". This is'nt the first croc i've owned but lucky for me it the smallest i've had the pleasure of dealing with and being able to reach into her enclosure and have her crawl on to my hand is something thats not going to be possibe in the VERY NEAR FUTURE!! so i enjoy it while i can.I've done this with most of the reptiles i've had the pleasure of working with from my anacondas to my nile's.
Thats why i say enjoy them while their little because it aint gonna last very long.I found out the hard way at the age of ten with a pair of mexican boas, that being bitten by a baby aint nothing compared to being bitten by a pissed of adult. So there you have it, my thoughts on handleing
Best to you, Chris

Absolutely, and I see your point on all issues. Of course it's a good idea to keep your monitor used to some sort of handling for the purpose of maintenance.

I wasn't implying that everyone who handles their large monitor is doing for the reasons I mentioned. I was actually refering to specific people who, for example, put leashes on their monitor/tegu and walk them down the street where everyone can see, parade large snakes around their shoulders in public, etc. Essentially, people who seem to do it for attention. I wasn't referring to everyong who handles their animals.

There is a long list of reasons why folks handle monitors.

From management, to just for the fun of it and everything inbetween.

Humans seem to be a tactile lot, We are always touching things, many times we are rewarded with pain. Put up a sign, DO NOT TOUCH and see what people do. It really does not matter what it is.

Of course with captive animals like reptiles, touching/holding needs to be moderated for the well being of the animal.

But it should not be forbidden or discouraged, it should be a learned technique, as to not harm the captives and to provide the keeper with joy(if thats what it does)

If someone wants to hold a monitor, learn to hold a monitor. Part of learning to hold a monitor is also learning when not to hold a monitor(or any reptile for that matter).

I also think that people would do far better with their monitors if they included more Joy or fun. If you make it fun, your bound to do far better and for a longer period. If holding them is part of that, then so be it.

I will not include what others have already mentioned, like dominance and such. That is the other side of the coin. You know, the bad side. What I hope to bring out is, there is a good side too. Cheers

Very well said Frank, thanks for your thoughts on this subject.
Best to you, Chris

Sometimes one’s ideology gets in the way of a philosophical discussion. I perceive this to be the case here. - Philosophy 101

The only thing you came here to conjure up is trouble, and you’ve come to the right place at the right time.

> > > "In an attempt to conjure up some type of philosophical discussion on this forum (perish the thought!)"

You are so darn clever, you lil' devil, you.

I must say, though, that your coming here to this forum in your quest for intelligent discussion speaks volumes about us.

Your post reeks of the “Holier than thou!” image that you have conjured up for yourself. This is driven by ideology, not philosophy. As evidence I present your statement: "As I have long-moved past the "pet reptile" stage... / ...I cannot recall what appealed to me in the first place..."

I just love people that forget where they came from. Perhaps it's the "I'm important" aura that radiates from said individuals that attracts the likes of the common man. I'm quite confident that I would know if we were ever in the same building at the same time.

> > > "What is the psychological basis for this inherent 'need'..."

Perhaps we should stick with philosophy and not get into the ideological psychosis that could drive someone to create such a thread as this.

You should apply your "dominance" and "need to be superior" theories to yourself, the reason you came here to create this thread.

Why the ire? I'll tell ya.
You come here starting a thread in which the opening sentence is a slap in the face for every member here. Not only did you degrade me, but in the process you degraded a lot of people that I have come to know & respect. I won't take it, I'm not about to let you get away with it without calling you out on it.

You come here P-ing on my campfire and you're gonna get burned.

> > > "I find it difficult now to see the enjoyment in handling or restraining a captive."

With the few exceptions in which restraining may be necessary, restraining - NO; handling - Yes, as long as it does not obviously affect the reptile.

There's nothing wrong with a "lap-tame" T-rex. (If there were to be such a thing as "tame."

If you don't want to handle reptiles, which some people are just flat out afraid to even try, then perhaps you should save yourself some money and just visit zoos instead of owning reptiles.

"But I want them in my house, to view them at my time & leisure. I want to OWN them." Are you starting to get the picture yet? I doubt it. Read on.

You want to OWN them. You want to CONTROL them. Etc... Now we've come full-circle. It's the same philosophy as that of the handlers. Is it a need or is it a desire? To each his own.

***In the context of this post, when I mentioned handling, I am not referring to forcible handling or handling that causes stress.

The one & only,
HappyHillbilly

-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

I think this post is fairly accurate.
I think handling is definitely a part of keeping. First of all, you speak like taking an animal out of it's natural habitat is somehow beneficial to it, it's just the handling that's bad. I think once we take an animal from nature, I'm not talking dogs at the beginning of time, I'm talking animals that want nothing to do with us then it is adversely affected, it's just the reality of it. We say we provide what's best for them, but we don't know that. We provide the best we can in a given situation, either way, they're sitting in boxes.
Captive animals I do believe come to acknowledge, and dare I say recognize their keepers, so in some cases interaction is in no way bad, it is part of learning to live with each other. I think the only time forcible handling(restraining) is ever ok is if it will in the long term help the animal, or protect one of the parties involved, it should not be a normal occurrence.
i do enjoy interaction with my animals, whether by watching them, or when I have to handle them. I think part of learning to be a responsible keeper is to learn when you can or should handle, and when it is absolutely not ok to handle depending on how it will affect the creature.
I don't agree with the dominance thing, I know people do it, but I think it's terrible. If you have to make yourself feel better through dominating something, then that's just really unfortunate.
sorry for the rant, hope I made some sense

Personally, I think the whole idea of a man 'handling' a monitor is like the idea of a man 'taming' a tiger- it just isnt realistic.

You can either restrain an animal, or you can allow it roam on its own.

If you attempt to restrain it, eventually you are going to feel the claws/teeth/venom of that animal.

If you let it roam free, its still an amazing animal, but many people cant enjoy something unless its under their terms- by which i mean, they treat the animal like an object to be manipulated at their leisure to fulfill their own personal goals or desires. These are the people who show off their monitors to every friend they see, if only for the satisfaction they themselves gain from it.

Handling falls into the first category. Your animal probably dosnt really want contact with you- its not that kind of animal. It dosnt have any desire to climb into your lap and curl up.

However, it MAY have a desire to interact with you. It sees you on a daily basis, youre in its environment and, being the intelligent animals that they are, they are curious as to what you are and what your intentions are in their territory (ie, are you a threat, a food source, etc).

How you go about doing this is tricky, because on a very basic level, this animal is your captive and by that fact alone, you are restraining it.

Personally, I try not to handle my animal, as I know it causes him stress. Now, that dosnt mean that I dont interact with him- I do, on an almost daily basis. During the motions of water changes, feedings, removal of the mice he likes to burry and what not, we have and do come into contact. Sometimes its nothing more than an investigatory tongue flick. Sometimes its as much as him climbing up my arm to have a look.

The key bit is, I let him decide his own level of involvement.

If he wants to hide away in a hole and be a grumpy lil lizard, well, he can do that. And if he wants to come out and have a looksee at me, he can do that too.

The absolute ONLY time that I force him to interact with me is in the rare instance where I need to move him or he manages to escape his cage (which hasnt happened in quite some time, since hes put on all this size).

Theres so many reasons people handle their animals- dominance over a 'dangerous' animal; dominance over other humans (scare tactic); gain confidence and/or experience; the "Big Dog" factor.

One Ive noticed some people havent mentioned is something Ive seen in quite a few keepers. It almost seems to me like some kind of obsessive 'need' to know where their animals are. Ive seen quite a few people (and hell, ive done it myself) who when they come back to the cage after leaving for awhile, will tear it apart looking for the animal if it is not readily visible.

Ive seen this alot in people who dont have secure enclosures, or are just very OCDish folks.

I enjoy the interaction my animal allows me for what it is- his desire to interact with me. I dont coax him with food or do anything special, I am simply present. If you are present enough, in such a way as that you dont disturb the animal (or at least dont disturb it too much), you (both keeper and captive) begin to gain a certain level of trust. And, by not forcing yourself on your animal, you both retain a certain level of respect for one another.

Trust without respect can be dangerous- you must always realize that you are working with an predatory animal, an intelligent one; while at the same time having trust in the 'relationship' you and your animal have established.

I would say that sitting in the cage and allowing a monitor to crawl on you and do it's thing is still a form of handling. You're still interacting with the monitor and coming in direct contact with it. I don't think handling has to be the pick it up wave it about nonsense that many people seem to do.

Hi NK!
I know where you're coming from and pretty much agree with you. I just wanted to point out that you're talking specifically about monitors where we were keeping with the original post's referrence of reptiles, in general.

Given the context of monitors, I'm inclined to say you're right, except jobi's two new niles throws a wrench in things. But there's alway exceptions to the rules, I guess.

I just wanted to make sure you realized that the original post said "...holding one's captive, whether it be a monitor, snake, gecko, turtle, etc.?"

Catch ya later!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

Dude, your way to smart for me. I think I will go dig up some eggs(too late, just did). And will have to tomorrow too.

I meant that stuff you said about the one starting the post, hmmmmmmmmmmm. Pretty good.

I already posted in this thread, but I will add somemore. Gouldi, have satiny feeling scales compared to Flavi and panoptes. I know this because I handled them.

I can also tell that tree monitors do not carry fat, both by sight and feel. Again that old handling thing.

But doing this type of management handling, sometimes fairly rough. I have learned, that a healthy well balanced monitor could careless. In fact, it does not bother them at all. When they have stuff to do, forced handling is shed off them like so much rainwater.

I guess my point is and nearly always has been, if you keep your monitor healthy, the monitors do stuff. They are always doing stuff. Ours seem to do stuff with eachother, but often include me. But if they were healthy, I would think they would still want to do stuff.

I would think some stuff(handling) is better then no stuff WHAT SO EVER.

I mean, a common varanid setup is, a glass tank, indoor/outdoor carpet(boy am I changing that) and a half round piece of wood or plastic. Oh and a water bowl. There is nothing there for them to do, Nothing. I know handling is the bottom of the barrel, but it is something. Which last time I checked was better then nothing.

Lastly, I think there is a confusion here, some are confusing taming with handling, this is very common. An example is, I got my knew who-who, and when can I handle it to tame it.

Its not the handling thats bad, its the person not understanding that handling is not how you tame a monitor. To tame any animal takes experience and practice(expertise). In our case, its learning to allow trust between the keeper and the kept, which is not all that easy of a thing or a concept. To learn to tame a monitor also means learning the difference between a tame monitor and a conquered monitor(totally dominated)

I find it odd that no one talks about how to tame a monitor. This is where the handling thing gets all messed up. IF folks understood what a tame monitor is, and understood how to tame a monitor, then handling would lose its "handle" and we could discuss the actual meat of taming a monitor. Yes, yes, you can tame a monitor with meat, hahahahahahahaha.

I would talk about it, but I do not practice taming monitors, somehow the monitors sort of tame themselves. Cheers

ps, Oh by the way, my entry line of digging up eggs is in no way to show how superior I am, but instead, to show how superior my monitors are. Ok, not superior, just normal healthy working monitors.

Very well said.
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Shannon in Reno
1 savannah monitor (Pombe-means "beer" in Swahili)
6 dogs
1 cat
36 rats
40 mice
54 chickens
3 beardies
1 black rat snake
~1000 hissers
1 giant milipede

Ha! I'd much rather be diggin' up eggs than posting replies like I did.

If it wasn't for your "guard rattlers" that you've got protecting your place I'd come dig up your eggs. Ha! Ha!

Take care!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

"I mean, a common varanid setup is, a glass tank, indoor/outdoor carpet(boy am I changing that) and a half round piece of wood or plastic. Oh and a water bowl."

...you're joking.... right?

People actually keep their animals.... like THAT?

No, nile Keeper, I am not joking, that is what is sold with the imported Savs and Niles. Petshops make their money on hardgoods, not reptiles. They also make their money off commodities such as, rodents(high profit area) crickets(low or a loss) superworms etc. And of course UV bulbs and reptile carpet and such.

So they promote the areas they make the money in.

If I were to make a guess, far more monitors are kept like I discribed, then any other way. Hence, most die quickly. Cheers

...

I guess the first question that springs to mind is, why?

Like, how does that work out exactly?

Is it because the pet stores mis-inform people?

Cause people just dont care?

Even so, are people really stupid enough to believe that these things can live a healthy life like that?

And the ones that DO survive (if any) in that situation... hows that work? Do they just get progressively bigger until they outgrow their homes and just die or....

I mean, if this kind of things happened with puppies, people would crap their pants in rage and uproar. But since its the 'icky' lizards, it dosnt matter?

Thats just, wow.... This world sucks balls.

They mostly die.

Also I use this analogy quite often. If people kept horses, dogs, cats, and such, in conditions that they physically cannot reproduce. They would be arrested for cruelity to animals or animal negleck. Yet, 99% of monitor keepers, keep their monitors in such conditions that physically cannot reproduce. Even those considered good keepers. Think about that. Cheers

My nil’s are no exception to the rule, they just happen to be a less nervous locality morph, I keep-kept many other nil locality’s and all (no exception) have learned to trust me, the only difference is time.

My point exactly, its the keeper, not the kept. Cheers

Many people dont realize that its going to be a time issue, that the animals may take quite awhile to get used to you.

They think they will go in, pick up a lil baby whatever, and take it home. Then, from that moment on, this lil animal is forever going to see them(the keeper) as their owner and friend...

And we all know thats just not how it goes in 99% of the purchases.

For many people, I think they almost buy the animal for the sole purpose of the handling- they dont get any real kick out of watching this beautiful animal, they just want to be the person holding the crazylooking/bigass lizard. And if the animal begins to become aggressive, rather than changing their tactics, they will claim the animal is 'crazy' or 'evil' or 'hateful', just because it has no desire to interact with them.

And we all know that’s just not how it goes in 99% of the purchases.
This may be right in your line of thinking, and most will think the same way as you.
However in my perspective it goes like this; in 100% cases, from the moment you purchase a monitor (any monitor) you have the option to build a trust worthy relationship one day at a time. The first step is always preceded by the next and so on, our limitations are not that of the animals we keep, but our ability to make choices.

"They think they will go in, pick up a lil baby whatever, and take it home. Then, from that moment on, this lil animal is forever going to see them(the keeper) as their owner and friend...And we all know that’s just not how it goes in 99% of the purchases."
"And we all know that’s just not how it goes in 99% of the purchases.
This may be right in your line of thinking..."

I was exagerating slightly, but i think on a subconscious level, thats what many prospective monitor (and reptile in general) owners are thinking when they buy that baby Nile or Water monitor- 'oh man, how sweet would it be if this thing got massive and stayed as friendly as it is right now!'

They arent thinking of what that animal wants/needs; but rather what they WANT.

"However in my perspective it goes like this; in 100% cases, from the moment you purchase a monitor (any monitor) you have the option to build a trust worthy relationship one day at a time. The first step is always preceded by the next and so on, our limitations are not that of the animals we keep, but our ability to make choices. "

Sir, (or madam), that is very fine, very true statement.

Given the context of most any reptilian captive, much of what I said rings true.

I tried to keep it in the realm of monitors because, well, thats what I personally have the most experience with and... well, it IS a monitor forum, lol

Most reptiles are relatively small, and have very few (if any) means of self defense; short of escape.

This being the case, theres really no issue as to the handling of these animals, because well, people are GOING to handle them. Thats just the reality of things. Handling a 2' monitor is a much bigger endeavor than handling a 4" leopard gecko, or even a 2' python.

The only reason people even question the handling of their monitors is because of the fact that, if that animal dosnt want to be handled, it can probably inflict a painful wound in its attempt to not-be-handled.

Monitors are fast, powerful, and often aggressive. Most other species, with the possible exception of venomous snakes, have little to no defense against human handling- I mean, sure a python can bite, but any careful human can avoid this with ease. And the chances of a non-venomous snake thats big enough to do any kind of real damage trying to outrun you are pretty well nil.

Still, what it all comes down to is:

"You can either restrain an animal, or you can allow it roam on its own.

If you attempt to restrain it, eventually you are going to feel the claws/teeth/venom of that animal.

If you let it roam free, its still an amazing animal, but many people cant enjoy something unless its under their terms- by which i mean, they treat the animal like an object to be manipulated at their leisure to fulfill their own personal goals or desires."

Be it a 10' retic, a 3' Croc, a 7' Nile, a 2" leopard gecko or a 10' cobra- its the same situation.

You can leave them alone and watch; or you can try to get mixed up in it.

What many dont realize is, if you leave them alone and watch for long enough without any problems going on, most animals (and not just reptiles in general here), wild or domestic, will eventually become interested in what you are exactly and what you mean to them- are you a threat? a food source? a playmate? a babysitter? a healer? a bastion of security? competition? etc.

Ive seen this with many different kinds of animals- from wild deer all the way down to leopard geckos.

They WANT to interact with you, but they DONT WANT to be dominated by you.

If you can work with them on a level as equals, give them the respect they deserve, the oppurtunity to become confident in themselves, and offer yourself as a trusted companion rather than a fear-instilling captor/dominator; then you can have interaction with a creature most people fear, on a level that most people wouldnt believe could exist.

I truly believe that allowing an animal to choose its own level of involvement with you is an important factor- if it realizes it has the oppurtunity to get away from you, it will take it. But after so many times of taking that oppurtunity, one day it wont... and nothing bad happens. So it tries it again... again, nothing bad. As this continues, the animal gets more and more confidence in itself and more and more trust in you. Over time, your interaction increases.

Suddenly your Nile monitor, who had once been a bitey hissy lil bastard of a thing that retreated below ground everytime you enter the room, comes clambering up your arm to get a better look at you.

Or the deer youve seen darting away hundreds of times on walks in the woods suddenly appear 10' away and unmoving. Then next time, 5'. Then less than a foot away, and finally dont flee when you reach out to touch them.

Then it becomes YOUR turn to decide your own level of involvement.

...then again, what do i know?

Now THAT was well said

Quig

Except the "what do I know" part
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Don't interupt me when I'm talkin' to myself

All this talk about allowing said captive to choose when it wants to interact with you and allowing them time to get used to your presence is great, but lets get down to the reality of keeping and maintaining these animals. I've yet to see any one talk about cleaning and sterilizing of the enclosures of said animals.Surely during this time of animal/keeper self discovery someone has got to clean up the piles of crap and you can only spot clean an enclosure for so long before the thing smells like a bus stop rest-room.So what happens then? I've worked with many different reptiles from large Boids to monitors and i've yet to come across any that will sit by idlely while the enclosures doors are wide open or completely removed and watch you while you do a complete subtsrate change and clean out the enclosure(i hope most keepers are doing this at least a few times a month if not more).You have no choice but to remove the animal weather he's ready to interact or not and here's where the fun starts.An animal that has not been handled at all or on rare occasions is going to get defensive if not down right indignent and of course this is going to stress him out. So dont you think it's better for the animal to get used to moderate handleing sooner as opposed to waiting till later ?
Best to ya,Chris

Good point Chris. Better that than to have him launch at you when your back is turned.

Quig
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Don't interupt me when I'm talkin' to myself

"during this time of animal/keeper self discovery someone has got to clean up the piles of crap and you can only spot clean an enclosure for so long before the thing smells like a bus stop rest-room.So what happens then? I've worked with many different reptiles from large Boids to monitors and i've yet to come across any that will sit by idlely while the enclosures doors are wide open or completely removed and watch you while you do a complete subtsrate change and clean out the enclosure(i hope most keepers are doing this at least a few times a month if not more)"

My animal seems to prefer pooping in the water (i think because he knows it changes regularly), and I know its not a sign of dehydration. The only real mess he leaves in the substrate are dead mice and dead skin.

I do complete water changes DAILY, and they are more than what many do. I used to do em twice daily, but I just dont have the time for that anymore. By water change, I mean removing the tub (decent sized 'flat style' rubbermaid tub, gets replaced when its dirty to a point i cant clean it; every 2-3 months or so). To do this, I have to complete remove one side of the top of the animals cage.

This leaves a VERY large area for him to come scooting out, if he so chooses. Thing is, hes learned what happens when that occurs (he runs, i chase, he hisses, i laugh, he hisses more, i put my gloves on and let him bite it and get him back in his cage asap- usually happens so fast he dosnt even seem to realize what went down and dosnt make too much of a fuss- certainly, i COULD restrain him and would if it was truly, TRULY a must), and isnt so keen on the experience, which is, i guess, why he dosnt try to dip away. not to mention, its cold out there, compared to his cage- not to a terrible degree, but over time im sure its uncomfortable.

Whatever the case, he dosnt go for it. Hes got about 1.5' of dirt to dig into, and hes used it to make a large series of burrows and tunnels- he could slip away into them any time. But he just sits still, watching me.

I just ignore him.... Not literally mind you, but I 'act' like Im ignoring him.

So i go to work, siphoning the water out into a bucket, scooping the larger chunks of poo from the container and placing them into a garbage back, and finally removing the 2 rocks i have in the thing to keep him from tipping it.

These I set aside. All the while, he just sits there, and I dont even look at him.

I put the top back on (if im not there watching him, its a whole different story), and take the container downstairs. I flush the old water down the toilet, and take care of the garbage bag with the poo. I flush the container with hot water to remove any other feces or dirt, then scrub it with paper towels and a combo antibacterial soap/rubbing alcohol to get ALL the nastiness off. Then I flush it heavily with hot water. Lately ive been giving it a second rub down with rubbing alcohol and flushing it, just to be safe.

I take the clean container upstairs and set it on the floor.

Open the cage again (lizard is still sitting there watching, or has moved and is stopped watching, and lid is again wide open as it gets).

Then i give the rocks that sit in the water a heavy spray down with hot water (using a spray bottle). Finally, I place the clean container back in its place, put the rocks inside and close the cage.

About 3 bucket fulls later, the water is clean, clear and beautiful. About this time i take a moment to remove any dead skin or uneatten food and to make sure the water is sitting securely, so it dosnt collapse if he gets underneath it....which means, yet again, the cage is as wide open as it can get.

Its about this time he comes sauntering over, looks up at me and climbs up onto my arm to have a look around. Hes sat there on my upper arm for 20 minutes before while I stroked his back slowly, but usually im in a hurry, so I have to shoo him off. Whatever the case, he clambers down and goes to have a swim. I have food defrosting and its about ready at this time, so i give him the usual (alternating every day between 6 mice, 4mice/2chicks and 5mice/1chick) after giving his cage a good mist, and he then proceeds to either eat some of it, burry it, lay at his basking spot.... well, the stuff he tends to do.

As for a complete substrate change... well, he has a habit of moving dirt into his water during digging (making my life a living hell) and because of this the level slowly drops over time and I have to refill it. Its by no means a complete change, but I dont think many people do this, or believe that its really needed with larger scale cages.

"You have no choice but to remove the animal weather he's ready to interact or not and here's where the fun starts""So dont you think it's better for the animal to get used to moderate handleing sooner as opposed to waiting till later

I dont know you so I cant say, but Ill tell you this: No time in which my animal is stressing heavily do I consider it 'fun', for him or for me. Its not a toy.

And as for the sooner vs later thing....no, no i dont.

first off, let me just say that forcing an animal to get 'acclimated' to you within the first month, or even first few months, of having it is just plain wrong in my mind. Give it time to get used to WHERE it is, WHAT it is (if its young), and WHEN food is going to arrive.

after its got that down, then you can start making it deal with the whole 'WHO you are' and 'WHY do you keep bugging me?' side of captivity.

secondly, i practice what i would call 'light, infrequent handling'.

i never plan on pulling my animal out for disply purposes- i respect him more than that. hes alive, and has the choice to not be bothered... again, if HE so chooses. When my friends come over and whine 'aw man, come on, make him come out' i give em the cold shoulder and a 'sorry man, hes not in the mood today' and they get the hell over it.

This isnt a display case for something fancy that I bought to show to my friends- this is a living thing in the best environment i can personally provide it(and its nowhere near what i wish it was).

My version of moderate handling is exactly that- moderate.

I 'force handle' him very rarely- when he escapes (something that, again, hasnt happened in quite some time) or when I need to move him.

Hes been moved quite a few times- just recently infact, when I switched my room to the back bedroom to get away from that pesky sun in the early morning. I had to take him out, something he WAS quite indignant about. But I made it the least stressful as I could- I offered him a dark bag and in he went; which i highly doubt bothered him too much, as he went for it.

I did this just as we were about to move the cage (keep in mind, id been in and out of there digging stuff up and pulling up driftwood without the least bit of a tail curl)and as soon as he was bagged, the cage was moved, and bam, he was back in no worse for wear.

He took it well, came up my arm later that night to have a looka round the new room- was kinda scared I think too, as the computer humming made him alil uneasy at first.

Hes staring at me right now, as a matter of fact

(old pics, but i like em )
"An animal that has not been handled at all or on rare occasions is going to get defensive if not down right indignent and of course this is going to stress him out."

Handling is a very loose term, but even so, I dont 'handle' my monitor. And neither do you, no more than a man at a circus 'handles' an elephant or tiger.

The way I think it, you can either restrain something (dominate), or you can interact with it (cooperate).

I interact with my animal, and when I have to force him to interact with me, he seems to not stress as much as he used to. There was a time when I tried to dominate him, to make him a pet, to make him fit MY perameters.

But that didnt work for crap. He got mean, hissy, bitey, taily- all the 'bad' things a monitor can be.

So I left him alone. It took MONTHS for him to get to a point where he would interact with me of his own free will, but its happened and thats a step in the right direction. That step, in and of itself, makes any attempt at forcing him into something he is uncomfortable with much less stressful for him, as there is some sense of trust there- Ive never hurt him before, why would I now?... Im not really sure if a monitor is capable of that kind of thinking, but it sure seems like it to me.

Keep in mind, any animal can still put up a fight. Even often handled animals will sometimes bite or scratch or wiggle- so if I let mine decide how much time he wants to spend with me, rather than the other way around, what can it hurt?

Im a human, its a lizard- I can dominate it any time I so choose, what with the whole thumbs thing. Id prefer to work with the animal on its level, rather than trying to drag it up to mine.

Im tired... and probably stupid.

I hope more tired than stupid, cause im REALLY tired.

> > > "First of all, you speak like taking an animal out of it's natural habitat is somehow beneficial to it, it's just the handling that's bad."

Good point!
Your post had other good points but I particularly like this one.

Have a good one!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

OUCH!!!!! KINDA HARD TO GET HAPPY AFTER THAT ONE! HAHAHAHAHHA EXCELLENT RESPONSE.
Good on ya,Chris

Heh, it doesn't make me happy to make such a post, but I felt it was necessary in this case.

Catch ya later!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

Acting like a new recruit!
Moving in for the kill ahead of all of us who actually have a game plan. Dang you hillbilly’s.

Sorry about that, jobi!

LOL!

I had a game plan, too. Quick termination. I finally had all I could take of this fella's put downs about this forum & it's members.

Take care!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

I think it is about dominance and control. I hold my sav about 2-3 times a month. He acts like he doesn't mind. I hold my black rat once every 4 months. My beardies get held when I have to move them around. The pets that I have that I really like to hold and pet on a reagular basis are some of my chickens and my dogs.

-----
Shannon in Reno
1 savannah monitor (Pombe-means "beer" in Swahili)
6 dogs
1 cat
36 rats
40 mice
54 chickens
3 beardies
1 black rat snake
~1000 hissers
1 giant milipede

I wanna get a birdie!

OK, butcha can't hold it

Quig
-----
Don't interupt me when I'm talkin' to myself

Dont worry.

Im just gonna feed it sun flower seeds with a pair of tongs

lol

((((What is the psychological basis for this inherent "need" to handle one's captives, since I think we can all admit to going through this "phase" at some point in our reptile keeping years. Is this desire based around mankind's need to be superior to all other living organisms, where handling a submissive animal gives them a feeling of dominance?))))

Its not an inherited need; touch is the first bondage we experience in life, it starts even before birth, as we grow touch is the primer to who we are and how we relate to other beings, the desire to dominate others is the result of a deficient maternal relationship.

Theirs not much we can do to help dominators other then teach by example.

Are you really interested in our opinions?
Funny cause you sure have got me suspicious about your intentions thru the years.

Steeve,

My query is exactly what I stated. I am interested in hearing people's opinions on the matters described. Given the occurrence and abundance of simplistic posts which have been posted a thousand times before on this forum, I felt it would be interesting to start/offer something different.

As for your take on this topic, you mentioned touch. Do you think that there is an attraction to the stimulation which results from physical contact made with the animal which makes handling/touching animals appealing to humans?

Many people over the years have answered this fundamental question quite simplistically with, "because I like to". I am trying to understand WHY they like to, the deeper-rooted basis for this human behavior.

Thank you for your input Steeve, it is much appreciated. Cheers,

Bob

Jobi was right on the money. Humans first language is the sense of touch. It starts off as a baby, before we learn to speak.

Touch is a pure form of comunication, unlike language. I could expand on this, but there is no need to.

For instance, my ability to successfully keep monitors is based on touch, not language. Its based on feel, not words. That's so very obvious.

If I may be so bold, and I am, your "problems" are language. You get stuck in language and do not feel the animal. Which I think is sad.

Its not that words are useless, in many cases they are, its more like husbandry, words are only a tool to use if it works. Not something to hang your hat on. Particularly when so little is actually known about monitors. In this area, words are worse then weak. A very poor tool to choose.

This subject is EXACTLY why I do not get along with you. You think words define an animal. I think the animal defines the animal. I can feel the animal for what it is. Not what someone calls it(words).

Now this may sound a little 60's(high on a mountain top kingdom, naked to the world) to the seventies( I want to hold your hand) Its my feel for monitors, that allows you to have done as well as you have. If you look at your advice, its taken DIRECTLY from me. I say that, because I say those same things you have been saying lately, only I said them many years ahead of you. You know, dehydration and many more.

Your problem does appear to be lack of feel. You can read something and believe it, but sadly you cannot feel something a believe it. You are trusting the wrong tool.

So yes, this is very personal to you. And surely I understand why you do not understand the handling/feeling thing. As its a lauguage you do not speak.

Something missed by you, words are always an attempt to discribe the subject, or better yet, the feel of the subject. They are in most cases, very limiting. Words are dry, harsh and segmented, feel is like a river, its continious and flows.

Now before you go on about my assumptions, I indeed can say this as, its taken you so long to do so little with something so easy. And, its something done so often. So I give you credit, your smart, but you have NO feel and no understanding of the language of feel. Which leads to very little understanding of the subject, the monitors.

Again, what peawatered off the old varanaphiles was that I did not need their words to be successful. I didn't, I had the feel of the monitors and was successful from day one. Of course, I did not know anything and had to learm along the way. Yes of course I made many mistakes and errors, still do. But I learned along the way. I learned from the monitors, THRU FEEL(handling)

Another example of this. In my early discussions with you and other old varanaphiles. You judged me on spelling of words, and syntax of sentences, not results from monitors. You understand words(you can learn it in school) but have no to little understanding of the LANGUAGE of animals. The academics are baffled by this, as they too are expert in words, not monitors.

I do wish you luck, if for no reason, for the sake of the animals your cages. And please learn to hold monitors, hold in this case means more then handle. Learn to encompass them, to hold dear, to be one with them. And not with words. Cheers

I do not think my original post could have been written any more clearly; although perhaps some of the wording may be perceived as me 'talking down' to other hobbyists. I assure you that was not at all my intention. One can assign all different technical names to the though processes and mechanisms involved in human decision making and behavior (psychology has never been of interest to me), however simply asked, was whether or not the desire to handle and touch animals was part of our human nature, and if so, what part?.

Now, instead of just offering your thoughts on the questions raised (which you did, and I thank you for that), you could not leave it at that, and have thus gone beyond the scope of this thread, and have now begun discrediting the thought process behind my curiosity, based upon my own experiences with varanids in captivity. I suppose that in order to be able to ponder why there is such a strong mental attachment to touching or handling animals, you must have bred many of them first.

I specifically kept my original post as neutral as possible, since I was the one asking for feedback. How you can turn this around into yet another "You're way of thinking is wrong and mine is right" diatribe, is beyond me, yet it remains consistent with the majority of exchanges which take place on this forum.

You say, you had no intention of "talking down" but yet you did and do. So what, I could careless.

You say, I cannot stop at your "certain point". Which is true, I am not you.

As smart you want to appear or "ARE", why can't you understand to make a point you must use comparisions. In the case of keeping monitors, which is what this forum is about, One MUST, use comparisions. Or simply put, no point can be made.

You appear to come from a scientific background, yet, you ignore results, oh wait, you ignore certain results, that makes you prejudiced. Science is paying attention to all results, ALL results, not just your friends or results that agree with you.

So again your being prejudiced. You brought up a subject, but the responces did not meet your idea of what you asked, or thought you asked. May I add, that is very normal for all posts on the internet. The reason is simple and clear, we are all different people from different backgrounds, with different experiences.

I am always amazed and thankful at all the different ways folks approach(think about) one single subject. Its the beauty of the forum.

The subject was handling, and to handle is to feel, its hands on. Hands on, is to handle. As I mentioned in the first post, there are many many reasons folks handle monitors. To narrow it down to a few, is very silly. You could have asked the keepers to express why they feel handling is important. That would have helped bring out many of the different reasons.

Your example was "dominance", to dominate. As in the keeper dominating for reasons of superiority. I feel that is a very poor example. The reason is, that is not of benefit to either the keeper or the kept. So I said I would let others work on those "negative" reasons for handling.

I mentioned I agree with Jobi, the first thing we do as humans is learn to feel. At first with your mouth, babies stick everything in their mouths, the reason is, that is the first line of comunication. I have seen that many times and I am experiencing it now with my fifth grandchild(3 months old).

So I do not see that any of this is foriegn to your original post. Its just different from what you thought. In that, I expected that to happen. As your very narrow at what you think.

I often use myself as an example(why not, I know me) I have had incredible success with monitors. But my approach is different. I do not approach it from an academic angle. My approach is passion, feel, touch and effort. It appears you do not need science or academia to allow monitors a full life and included constant non stop reproduction(it appears, that is what they do)

In fact, it appears academia is a hinderance to the actual keeping of monitors. This makes you mad. I apologise for that. But it is what it is. And so is why people hold monitors. They just do. For good and for bad. Cheers

>>As for your take on this topic, you mentioned touch. Do you think that there is an attraction to the stimulation which results from physical contact made with the animal which makes handling/touching animals appealing to humans?
>>
>>Many people over the years have answered this fundamental question quite simplistically with, "because I like to". I am trying to understand WHY they like to, the deeper-rooted basis for this human behavior.

Well, if you ask my DH he will tell you that we have pets to "lower our bloodpressure" Remember that whole.....petting a dog will lower your bp? So, when the cats knock something down in the middle of the night, or they drag in a loudly screaming mouse to bat around in the bathroom for maximum acoustics at 2 a.m. and I say "WHY DO WE HAVE PETS?" that is his stat answer......it has saved some cat's lives. I am not good at being woken up too many times a night unless it is by a tiny infant that needs something.

So, you are trying to understand basic human behavior??? Take a number.
-----
Sonya

I'm not mean. You're just a sissy.
Happy Bunny

Hello,
In most cases, I am led to believe that the desire to handle our captive reptiles stems from our desire to tame and make them pets because they are given space in our homes. As many of us who have studied many different captives over time have found, some deal with our handling okay and others simply lash out or break never to be quite the same again.
Well, that's my two sentences... Best to you all- Mike

Humans are like our close relatives the apes, we feel, we touch, and explore things, its natural to us. Humans have that instinct to explore by touch, as another post mentioned, to learn by looking, listening, and feeling.
But as for reasons to handle them for me...
-If my flavi-argus needs to come out of the cage for some unforseen reason I put on welders gloves and get him out and into another container fast, then back into the cage ASAP.
-My ackies get scooped up once in a few months to check them out closely only to make sure all is well, but, only if something is out of the ordinary.
-Sobek usually always comes to me on her own terms and climbs all over me (ouch, shes huge so it gets a bit dangerous). Then again shes been this way about myself and a few other people since the beginning.
-Also my beardie gets scooped up once in a few months to check him over closer.
Personally I dont like forcing them to be handled, and I see no reason to handle them for my own satisfaction, or to be in control of them, or to be dominant. If someone asks to see Sobek I can simply let them see her in her cage or she will come to me on her own, but she is an exception to most monitors not the rule. She sometimes will just climb onto me and against my hands and arms to feel secure (I guess to prevent falling), not too many monitors I know of that act like this.
But then again when I was a little kid I could see that reptiles did not enjoy being handled, and did not see any reason to force them afterwards.
Personally to compare the difference (big difference) they should be compared to a species that evolved to accept humans, to live in our presence, to feel a part of our lives, to be a part of our families, that enjoys our attention, that seeks our touch, and approval, a dog.
A species (dogs)that evolved from a species (wolves)that was not much unlike ourselves.
I think humans should learn these differences and understand them before getting any reptile captive, it makes the captives life so much better.
I do believe that most teenagers do get into reptiles for one reason, to be a rebel, to be different, to rebel against their parents, to cause revulsion, all for one reason, for attention.

WHOA, WHOA, WHOA! Hold up! Lol, I'm a teenager, and I sure as heck am not keeping my reptiles to be a 'rebel' or get attention. Sure, it's nice when people compliment my animals in public. Aside from one trip to school to show the bio teachers (they personally asked), all times my reptiles are in public is for educational reasons. I do NOT take them out for attention.

I know I can't say the same for some teenagers, though. Maybe I just dont have the "I hate my parents" and "I must be unique" attitude. :/ That last little tidbit of yours I must disagree with.

I did however post my veiws on handling in an above post.

Ryan

See if your views change. Have a nice day.

Hmmm...
Interesting questions...
Lots of "touchy" responses
I'm trying to remember, as a kid, wanting to hold my animals - I think it was more of a bonding thing - I had cats (still do), had a dog (have several), was always fascinated with snakes (still am, but tend to have gotten jaded).
I never really thought that they resented the handling, or suffered from it. If they didn't adapt & thrive, they went back to the wild.
When my collection got too big, & breeding was more of an issue, the animals only got handled for maintenance. Something was lost there - I think.
Lately, I've tried to shrink the collection, refocus, & try to recapture some of the "magic" of enjoying the individual animals.
I tend to get glimpses of the past, try to find new ways to keep the interest & "thrill" alive. Sharing with friends is one way, field collecting & observation another, breeding new species & morphs, keeping harder to maintain animals, experimenting with habitats, etc.
On a side note, but pertinent to this thread: I've been playing with various herps for almost forty years. I'm not into anthropomorphizing. I wouldn't have believed, if I hadn't seen with my own eyes, on multiple occasions, my ex "handling" some young Gilas... They were in a tank, being raised together, growing well, & thriving. She would put her hand in the cage, call them, & they would scramble to her,& crawl into her hands.
She would then snuggle & talk to them, & they'd hang out together. It wasn't for food, it wasn't for warmth, they were showing affection & bonding with her.
I, personally, wouldn't recommend doing that, but it did happen & it was way cool.
I think other reptiles probably respond too - many of us have just gotten into different niches over the years & tend to shut out what other people are doing.
Right now I've got some small crocodilians that have developed a "good" feeding response & have become hazardous to remove from their tanks. I'm planning on changing their enclosures so that I can walk in, get them used to me as a non-threatening presence, & break the habit of them associating me with food.
I don't plan on making house-pets of them ,but do want to be able to pick them up without their fearing it.
Actually, they are currently very handleable, once they are in hand & have a chance to relax.
I don't have any monitors, at the moment, but have had quite a few interesting experiences with them over the years & have enjoyed various personalities.
Cheers,
Max
-----
"How the hell do you find a Heloderma in a snowstorm?"

The group you are talking about consider their animals as toys for the use of self-amusement. Whether they know it or not. They are clueless about their animal's reaction to over-handling, and on their own never think to consider this. Then, when the newness and fun wears off and they get used to their reptile or whatever, it gets put in a cage and neglected. They buy their animal for the wrong reason.

Roger

Good lord, I'm more tempted to spend time considering your eagerness to ascribe a negative or "immature" impulse to the desire to handle one's herps. Are you attempting to display your superiority and dominance by showing that you've "graduated" beyond the lowly desire to handle? See, that knife cuts both way.

Quite simply, humans are social animals, and we express affection through physical contact and desire same. Not only that, the tactile sense is a close second to vision in humans in experiencing and learning about our surroundings.
We like to touch stuff. It's not a big deal.