Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I got this one in a large shipment. Its back is unusual as it is almost a solid black stripe. Is there a black back morph? Your ideas much appreciated.

Mark ledbetter

n/p

I seen a lot of balls advertized as this and that. I know looking at 100 balls, this one was unusual. If only 1% is like this, then it is genetically unique, right? I don't know too much about all these fancy terms for slight pattern variations used in ball pythons. That is why I am consulting the "experts".

Mark

Don't believe everything you read. Those are just marketing gimmicks to lure the un-savvy. Yes, there are "black backs" but 999 out of 1000 times, it's just a pattern variation. That one is without a doubt, completely normal.

There's nothing about that animal or the other two, that should lead you to believe it's anything but one of the many, many, thousands of completely normal Ball Pythons that are imported from Africa each year. You should be pleased you have a few beautiful normal ball pythons. If you want a morph, I suggest purchasing a Pastel male. The orange coloration on that snake will fade in adulthood. The blackbacked appearance of the other one could prove to be heritable...but you are way ahead of yourself as many of them do not. And I don't see anything about the "spotted" one that says anything but normal. I went through 2000 Balls straight out of the crates this year and I found ONE animal that I think MAY be something.....but until proven otherwise by a sucessful F2 breeding IT IS A NORMAL. While there are some animals brought in each year that will prove to be heritable, almost all of them are picked out by people who are specifically looking for animals with "markers" or traits that have proven in the past to be an indicator of some potential for incomplete dominant traits. I also suggest buying Dave and Tracy Barkers, or Kevin McCurley's book. And doing alot more research using tools other than the internet to learn what you are doing before you "market" anything. And believe me, I am very surprised that someone hasn't treated you more harshly, you came here and posted animals that are well within the normal bounderies for a variable species, and are talking about "marketing" them. What's wrong with just keeping them, perhaps breeding them, learning about the species? If you are sucessful....you won't have to "market" anything. Your animals will sell themselves....And as to what you've seen advertised....they are in many cases just as normal as these animals are.

There are hundreds of striped and partially striped animals that are bred each year that do not produce striped animals....so far Pro Exotics has found one lineage that is heritable....those are NOT good odds.

I asked a simple question for some feedback, and people are calling for my head. Did I market it? I think not. Am I researching to make sure I don't mislead anyone, Yes I am. I someone asks, is this ... I can say, no, I believe its just normal. If I have this question, I am sure many other also have this question. Maybe, they are afraid of the castration they will receive for asking.

I'm not a ball person. Truthfully, I don't understand all the hype. To me, it is one of the most common of all the small python species. The least interesting out of Africa. A childs pet. A beginners snake. A snake for those afraid of being bitten (I know a few bite). I do understand the retic craze, blood python craze, schrub python craze, but give me a break on the balls.

A real test for those who dare is taming a coachwhip. This is a snake that will climb a bush just to face you eye-to-eye. It will not just cowardly crawl into a ball. Coachwhips go full-out, biting, pooping, whipping, etc. That is a man's snake. No-one give a coachwhip to a child, not even a psycho-path.

I am not going to sell a snake that may be $600 for $30 without doing some research. Now, I know its just $30, but wouldn't you want to confirm that first? A simple question does not deserve a beheading.

I agree, a simple question doesn't deserve a beheading, but I also believe you should have done a little more research on Ball Pythons in general before you started posting individual pics of snakes you know very little about. There is much literature and many, many pictures of all the different morphs there are online. And many pictures of many variations of normals also. Simply looking at the pictures will give you a good idea of the unreal amount of variability there is in these snakes. To probably anyone who deals with balls, even normals are beautiful, but they simply are just normals. I'm sure no one wants to deliberately be rude to you, but it gets a bit frustrating to see people constantly posting pics of normals and "hoping or expecting" that they are something different. It's a very repetitive thing in here and it just gets old, try not to be offended. Just my humble opinion.

Quig
-----
Don't interupt me when I'm talkin' to myself

I've seen pictures of black backed and halloween balls and I did not see too much difference between these and those. For black back, maybe it is a degree difference, but in this one the black is only interrupted only twice verse none on a black back. A normal it may be interupted 5-10 times. So I saw these as intermediates. You can't fault me with that. With the spotted, almost all its side blotches were terminated prematurely and did not reach the belly. Many normals do not have it. It may not be a known trait, but is there such a thing as a purely spotted ball python? I don't know. If not, why would someone not be interested in designing one?

Also, one writer makes a point I did not consider: that the color can change when it grows. I think this is a good point to make for anyone buying a ball python. Many sellers don't say this or advise the clients that what you see may not be what you get in 3 years.

What you have ate fairly typical looking balls. Normal balls are very variant (see postem if ya gotem thread above - all of mine are normals - some are aberrant normals some are normal normals) all of yours fall under normal normals. Specifically:

Blackbacks are a phenotype not a morph - meaning the trait can be passed down but it's not something that people really are willing to pay for - your "blackback" also appears to have two full saddles that go over the dorsal - which would disqualify it as a blackback.

Your "halloween" ball - is no where near close to being a Halloween - a true H-ball is bright Orange (which stays orange into adulthood) with Jet black. As someone mentioned - many young balls are born with that peachy under coloring - it browns out as they grow.

Your spotted morph - at best (and it would still be pushing it) could be a "reduced alien head" which is not a morph but a phenotype and like the blackback - fairly common and really not anything special.

Where they may be normal - if you find their traits special you can breed them into morphs for something nice - but to the average buyer they aren't worth more than $15-$20 bucks.

Good luck.
-----
Tosha
JET Pythons

Thanks for explaining this. I just wanted to be sure.

Mark

I have been keeping reptiles for thirty plus years. Growing up in Florida I have caught and keep more coachwhips then you can shake a stick at. I never had any act like you desribe, not one. Not even the six footers. In fact I found most very enjoyable and easy to work with. Active and a little nervous at first, but no where as challenging or frustrating as a wild caught adult BP. So please don't pump up your ego by calling them "a real mans snake" or what ever. And don't criticize someone else's preference/ hobby just because you don't like the answers your getting. It shows a total lack of class.

Jeff

Some should not dish it if they can't take it. Hey, I may not know alot about all the ball python morphs, and truthfully never cared, but some have over zealously critized me for asking a simple question. Is it fair for a newbie to ball to get their head laid on a block? This newbie may understand other types or species of reptiles better than the "ball" experts. Should I beable to attack them if they choose to ask a question of the Coachwhip forum? Its a matter of civility. I did over exagerate when I mocked balls, they are pretty cool. I did have a ball python once that could never be tamed. Meanest animal alive. And, I have had coachwhips and tree boas that became puppy dogs.

One last thing, I did not exagerate on coachwhips. In Georgia, I have been rushed by them, I have had them climb into bushes and then hold their ground. And when you take that flying leap to catch one, you better go face down because that snake will be swinging around with a mouth wide open. No exageration. One last thing, it is close to impossible to grab one behind the head when encountered in the field. Most often your belly flat on the ground with a grasp of its tail.

You are absolutely right about the manner in which some threads are replied to. I myself have read more into a post and responded either harshly or sarcastically when it may not have been warranted. And I have not been to proud to apologize if necessary. But as Quig stated it is something that happens repeatedly. A newbie or overzealous hobbyist posting pics of what they think is a new morph. And worse as also previously stated dubious people represent normals as a new morph which someone buys just to be disappointed in the end. That gives us all a bad name.

As for the Coachwhips. I loved them as a kid. And your right most have to be chased down and grabbed on the fly. And for every one I caught many more disappeared into the palmettos. But I have never had one stand its ground, though I have seen them stand up above tall grass to take a look around. But this just goes to show that all reptiles have their merits and everyone has their own personal preferences. Happy herping.

Jeff

Truthfully, I don't understand all the hype. To me, it is one of the most common of all the small python species. The least interesting out of Africa. A childs pet. A beginners snake. A snake for those afraid of being bitten (I know a few bite). I do understand the retic craze, blood python craze, schrub python craze, but give me a break on the balls.

A real test for those who dare is taming a coachwhip. This is a snake that will climb a bush just to face you eye-to-eye. It will not just cowardly crawl into a ball. Coachwhips go full-out, biting, pooping, whipping, etc. That is a man's snake. No-one give a coachwhip to a child, not even a psycho-path.

Well this certainly puts your opinion into perspective doesn't it? Seems you know quite a bit about Masticophis...ever breed them? My apologies to Sighthunter, but I couldn't resist using your photo. It really is worth a thousand words here....Below that is an Eastern Coachwhip hatching....Have a GREAT day!

Cool picture. I did not say it was impossible to tame one. But first, it takes some guts to get over the bad sterotype of them. Than, wild ones are likely to take a while to lose their nervousness. They do calm down and become tame (like your picture shows). Sometimes it takes getting bitten a few times before they begin to get real trusting. It really depends on the snake. They do tend to retain an alert deminior, and can be spooked by sudden movements. I would, personally, be little nervous with my coachwhip around my daughter like that. But, in a calm environment, I don't see the harm.

Coachwhips come in reds, browns, yellows, albinos, black, half-and-half, barred, stripped, and I bet if you designed them you would get tons of different morphs.

I would have to agree that you probably did get a somewhat unexpected response. But that said, please do not come in and bash our hobby. If you don't like it please keep your opinions to yourself. I happen to love ball pythons and I prefer to not have somebody that doesn't care for ball pythons come in and criticize them. If you don't care for them, that's fine, I don't like coachwips, please don't criticize what we enjoy.

What do you mean by the least interesting species in Africa? They are the most variable species of snake in the world, and we still only know very little about them. Maybe you would find them more interesting if you knew more about them, or had a few morphs in your rack. If they are such a beginner snake, the why do you have to ask questions about them. Don't come into our forum and trash our species when you probably don't have any of the other morphs you mentioned either. I will post a pic of my morphs so that you don't quiz me as to the fact that I am in possession of morphs myself.

1.0 fire
1.0 mojave
1.1 pastel
0.4 normal

coming soon...
1.0 albino
1.0 cinnamon

There is more variablity in a common garter snake than a ball python.

Ball pythons are the latest fad. I just hope those paying thousands if not tens of thousands for the latest fad don't get burned to bad. Over past 20 years, I've seen numerous fads, never last too long. Some, longer than others, but never forever.

OK, I mean no disrespect, but wild common garters are certainly no more variable than wild Balls. Been chasin' garter snakes for the better part of fifty years and they don't change THAT much . Have not seen albinos in the wild, but have seen melanistic ones. The other differences one might find in them would almost have to be seen ' in hand' to be noticed at all.

And as far as balls being just a fad, they've been in captivity and been bred for the different morphs for twenty years.That's a pretty long lasting fad. I DO agree that the pricing is out of hand for the most part, but then for a very long time only breeders would want these, and they could afford or work out some sort of trade for what they wanted. Again, just my opinion.

Quig
-----
Don't interupt me when I'm talkin' to myself

If Ball Pythons are fad, then how come they have ruled the Market for the past 10 years? If not longer. The past 5 years they have literally taken OVER. I started in Venomous, Leos, Beardeds, and other typical animals. But, it seems that no matter where you go, who you sell to, you are going to have *numerous, upon numerous* people come to you for Balls. And if you have been in the Business for more than 5 years, you know what I am talking about. I finally broke down and invested myself, they may not be *my personal favorites* BUT THEY SELL PERIOD. Compared to any animal in the Market place;

No reptile is imported more.
No reptile is breed more, by more people every year.
And no reptile has more sales.

It's plan and simple.

I understand you're wanting to find out the exact details of your animals so as not to be uniformed, but there is a good reason for some of the people to be frustrated (but not rude). So far of the animals I have seen you post, all are so normal you can find out the info. by simply looking at others posts, pics, and sites.

And the majority of people today who get into the BPs assume that anything slightly different *IS* some new morph, and that can be a cause of frustration among long time breeders. But I am not trying to say that them jumping you is right though. But anyone trying to rebutle by saying this is a fad, well I'm sorry, but on that *opinion*.......you are wrong.

An animal that RULES the market period is plan and simply not a fad......BUT A TREND.

Go luck with your animals, and I comend you on the health of you animals. Some people getting into the BPs only see the money, and as many say, you will *NOT* get rich by doing this, atleast not in the wallet. And people who are into it for the breeding and satisfaction of the experience, well you know who they are when they post their pics of their newborns, and while reading their post you can hear the smile on their face.

Beautiful pic.

Thanks for the reply, that's one of my favs as well.