Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Does anyone have or know of any pics of damage from mealworms to beardies or any other reptiles?

uh i dont know of many pictures that will shows any damage. most of the damage that is done to any reptile by a feeder is internally. meals worms sometimes cause compaction in a dragon which is all internal so pictures wouldnt show anything.
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Beach Beardies

2.2. bearded dragons
1.1. Sugar Gliders
0.2. Felines *queen athena and missy*

I know, I am looking for post-mortem photos of the damage done.

Hi
mealworms dont eat from inside to outside.
it can from outside to inside if beardie is dead r weak .
this myth is busted
when beardie eat much mealworms then they get impacted and can die.
so then people think last i gave him whas mealworms so i think the mealworms killed mine beardie.
but it whas the impaction that cause the beardies dead.
sceleton of a mealworms is very ahrd to digest and then youre beardie get impacted.
specialy if the baskingtemp is to low.
byeeeeeee
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www.dragoncave.nl

How many mealworms are safe for a beardie to eat? Mine usually eats about a dozen and I notice that sometimes there are undigested mealworms in his feces.

honestly, id say NONE. if they cant digest them then dont feed em. id find an alternative like pheonix worms, butterworms, hornworms, and silkworms. these are much better in every aspect anyways
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Beach Beardies

2.2. bearded dragons
1.1. Sugar Gliders
0.2. Felines *queen athena and missy*

Hi
i never give them even mine adult not get those.
i give grashoppers,cricks,morioworms,waxmoth last one 1 time a month.
mine hatchlings get buffaloworms but those you cant get in U.S.A.
they r 1/3 size of a mealworm but they r better to digest.
i put them with lot of calsium in a cup and the babies wil eat those from the first day.
but i never give 1 mealworm.
byeeee
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www.dragoncave.nl

I agree with beachbeardie the best number is 0. Mealworms are a low quality high risk food so why feed it when there are so many better options available today.

Mealworms aren't that bad for your pet. They're not the healthiest feeder insect, but they are easy on the wallet if you're strapped for cash. Only give your dragon about 6 at a time and balance out the diet by feeding both the dragon and the worms a high-quality, nutrient-rich vegetable and fruit diet. Also, try to feed your dragon worms that have just shed (these are the pale ones) as they will be easier to digest.

If you want to help out your pet even more, try cutting the heads off the worms. This will allow the dragon to digest the worm right away without having to digest the shell first.

Just keep in mind that a mealworm-only diet is detrimental to your pet. It's like you eating only one kind of cereal for all your meals and snacks; you'd get tired of it and would miss out on a lot of essential vitamins and minerals, no matter how healthy the cereal is. Add some variety to your dragon's menu, and he'll be much less likely to lose interest in his food (I have one leopard gecko who won't take mealworms anymore because they were a staple for too long.)

Good luck with your dragon!

Cutting the heads off is exactly what I tell customers to do IF they are going to feed mealworms.

There are high quality pellets available that can provide a complete diet.

mealworms don't cause 'damage' to bearded dragons, but because of their hard exoskeletons, feeding too many mealworms, especially to baby dragons (under 10" long head to tail tip) it can cause impactions.

Basically the hard to digest skins of mealworms coupled with one or more other factors such as dehydration, improper basking temps or just fed way too many or a very young dragon, can bunch up in the intestines, blocking passage of waste material..eventually, if not treated, will cause the death of the dragon. At worse, it can cause the intestine to rupture.

To my knowledge I haven't seen any photos or heard of anybody having photos showing bearded dragons with impacted 'gut' due to excessive feeding of mealworms. I have, however, seen photos of a bearded dragon who died due to impaction caused by crushed walnut shells.

The link showing photos of impaction is rather graphic and not suitable for all viewers. View at your own risk.

mrskingsbioweb.com/beardeddragngrossanatomy.htm
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PHLdyPayne

I am not here to debate whether it happens or not, I already know it does, and I already know that many people think ti is an urban legend, just like I used to. It is not the most common thing, but it will happen. When I have talked to people who have watched their anole or leo squirming in pain, then a mealworm emerges from the stomach, I know it happens. When people have vet verified cases of mealworms causing chewing damage to the inside of the beardy that caused its death, I know it happened. I am not expecting people who have had beardies and fed them mealworms for 10 or 40 years without problems to change their minds.

I am not here to debate whether it happens, I am simply looking for photos, so if you do not have those, please move on to a thread with someone with a problem that you can help. I do not want to take time from them to debate this.

uh from reading previous posts, i dont see too much of a debate on this, most agree with it. i dont know all about the eating from inside out situation, but i do know they have caused compaction before. anyways, your pics have been posted above in a link by another poster
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Beach Beardies

2.2. bearded dragons
1.1. Sugar Gliders
0.2. Felines *queen athena and missy*

That was from walnut. I am looking for pics of damage to reptiles from mealworms chewing on the reptile from the inside before they die. I agree that the exoskelaton could cause impaction.

after being here for over 6 years, never once have I heard of anybody saying their bearded dragon (or any other lizard for that matter, as I read more than this forum) having meal worms or even superworms, eating their way out of stomachs, or causing chewing damage. Hence why you haven't had any responses openly yet with pictures.

Maybe it happens with leopard geckos, I don't keep those so I don't know their eating habits. But, if you do find pictures and documents relating to it elsewhere, please post them here, or just email them to me. I am always interested in learning new facts
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PHLdyPayne

I don't think I have heard of them eating their way out of beardies, but I know they have caused the death of them by chewing up their insides, they just didn't make their way out the way they have with leos and anoles. Since they generally don't make their way out of beardies, there is nothing obvious that points to this being the cause. In that case all you notice is that a beardy stops eating and then dies. And unless a necropsy is done, you have no idea what caused the death. And I beleieve that a lot of the cases where a perfectly healthy beardy is being fed mealworms or superworms and all of a sudden stops eating and then dies is caused by this, but since almost none have a necropsy performed, the cause is left unknown and people continue to feed this food. And I think we have all heard of at least one case where a beardy stopped eating and then died. Obviously this is not the only thing that would cause that, but I believe it is the cause of death in a lot of those situations.

compaction is the case most of the time. ive never heard of a story of a superworm or mealworm eating the insides of a beardie. id like someone who has experienced this to share their story tho
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Beach Beardies

2.2. bearded dragons
1.1. Sugar Gliders
0.2. Felines *queen athena and missy*

Impaction not compaction.

Hi
beardie eat mealworms cant digest it well then he get impacted .
then later he died and people think mealworm dith it in tummy .
thats the case belief me
i never give them for that reason they r hard to digest and causing impaction and dead with end result .
byeeeeee
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www.dragoncave.nl

Hi
on a dutch forum a guy swear the mealies eat trough the tummie of a bearded dragon .
i wil post this link but i think the beardie whas already dead and then eat trough the tummie.

WARNING THIS CONTAINS A SAD PICTURE .
www.12forum.nl/forum/bericht.php?ID=1316&tID=586&fID=4&lined1=meelworm&lined2=dood#5588
so i never heard it happend when they where alive but when they lay dead in cage then they wil eat at the softer part of body as you can see on the pics.
byeeeee
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www.dragoncave.nl

thanks for the correctiong, impaction not compaction

i highly doubt that pic is of mealworms eating a dragon while it was alive. probably a dead dragon left with mealworms in a cage or something.
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Beach Beardies

2.2. bearded dragons
1.1. Sugar Gliders
0.2. Felines *queen athena and missy*

What throws me off about mealworms eating themselves out of the stomachs of bearded dragons or other lizards, are two things.

One: Bearded dragons do chew. I can see adults not chewing mealworms well because they are rather small and may miss a few.

Two: Stomach acids. Bearded dragons do have stomach acids more than capable of killing mealworms.

I don't know how resistant meal worms are to acids, as I have never dropped any into a vat of acid before, to see if it lives or dies.

Anybody out there work with acids in school? Drop a few mealworms into it, then fish them out after a few minutes to see if they are alive. How strong does the acid need to be to kill a meal worm? Strongest acid I ever used was to etch zinc plates in Print (fine art) class. Though I don't think these acids were so strong to kill mealworms...most weren't strong enough to even burn human flesh (been splashed once or twice, but some I didn't even feel any heat...but these were pretty weak concentrations. I was much more careful with the stronger acids to do deeper burns into zink plates).

Sometimes I wish I had access to a lab...there are a few experiments I would love to do.
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PHLdyPayne

Hi
yes i think beardie whas already dead .
you know what happend when you lift up a water bowl r saladdish ??
then you see worms .
so when something else lay there like a dead body then the worms also wil go underneath that and eat then above them into the dead beardie .
byeeeeee
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www.dragoncave.nl

Beardies have been eating insects for millions of years, but that doesn't mean that none have died from it. Have they been eating mealworms and superworms for millions of years?

They also do not live on tile or repti-carptet, yet that seems to be a necessity in captivity. Even in the wild some probably die from impaction. The difference between the wild and captivity is that we want all to live in captivity, so we take the precautions of repticarpet and not feeding dangerous food items, while in the wild these contribute to keeping the gene pool strong.

Even when cases arise, everyone says the worm ate into the beardy after it was dead. Did they just happen to eat from the outside straight to the stomach?

Not all beardies chew them up enough. The stomach acid is not going to kill outright. They have tough exoskelatons (so tough that the exoskelaton can not only make its way through the stomach, but even all the way through the digestive system and come out in the poop) so I do think they have enough time to do damage, even if they don't eat their way out.

Hi
mine reptile vet marja kik from the netherlands dith 5.000 autopsie and she never find a case .
she told that to me 6 years ago .
she is at the universitie of utrecht and i belief her.
she is one of the best veterians of the netherlands .
byeeeeeeee
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www.dragoncave.nl

Hi
read this link its a dutch men who know much about reptile read what he say about this mealworm thing .
copiepaste from what he say .
If the worms eat their way out of a lizard, then you must watch out not to swallow a seedpit of a grape, as maybe grapes will grow out of your ear

read the whole think on this adres
www.agamainternational.com/pages/faq.htm

i belief him for 100%
byeeeeee
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www.dragoncave.nl

That is one of the worst analogies I have ever heard. One man's experience does not set the fact, even if they have been a breeder and vet for 50 years.

It happens. Just because it does not happen to everyone or all the experts does not mean it does not happen.

Hi
mealworms can cause impaction thats a good reason not sell them for beardies .
so i must belief you and not bert langewerf and mine vet marja kik ?
i know this storie for 7 years and i know its a myth belief me .
if you have a pic of a life beardie and a worm comming out his tummy then i wil belief you (and those pics arend there because it never happend).

byeeeeeee
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www.dragoncave.nl

That's a pretty harsh post from someone making a claim and then asking us to substantiate it.

I am not trying to be harsh, I am looking for assistance. All I meant is I KNOW it happens, so if someone doesn't agree I will let them know now I already know it happens, so rather than waste their time, I would rather them help others that they can make a difference with. I don't need proof for me, I am looking for pictures to help people understand the harm that can be done.

I suspect the reason there are no pictures is because it doesn't happen. All the photos I've ever seen are of an animal that has been dead for quite a while.

I don't believe it happens. Lizards have been feeding on various mandible-equipped insects for millions of years. I feel like they've probably perfected it by now.

It kind of reminds me of a guy I once knew. He told me about how 'possums were starting to "run with" armadillos. His proof was that they were always getting hit by cars while crossing the road together. It never occurred to him that the armadillo might have been hit first, then the 'possum got hit while making a meal of the dead armadillo.
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0.9.0 Ball Pythons
0.1.1 Leopard Geckos
0.0.1 Egyptian Tortoise
0.0.1 Bearded Dragons

It does happen, there is no doubt about that. I have talked to 10x the people with problems with mealworms eating up the insides or their way out of reptiles than with problems with calci-sand impacting, and I think we all know calci-sand impacts. I think there is little evidence because it is simply one of the reasons for those mystery deaths that people say they have no idea why their beardy or leo died. Not enough people get necropsies done to have enough evidence of this. People have watched it happen, vets have declared it the cause of death, so ti does happen. Just because few have had first hand experience with it (or at least knew they had first hand experience with it) doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Again, anyone with pics please share. Anyone skeptical of this, I hope your beardies do not suffer for it.

mealworm exeskeletons certainly don't break down as it passes through a bearded dragon's digestive track, but how long a mealworm would need to actually chew through the lining of the stomach or intestines...before the lack of air and acids kill it, I don't know. I can see them eating through the throat sack before even getting to the stomach (if you ever looked down a bearded dragons' throat after it gobbles up some food, you can see most of it sits in the throat/beard area before eventually being swollowed. Being being bit by still alive meal worms and superworms may be why they regurgitate them back up.

The more I read this thread the more I want to learn about how often this does happens. yes, very few people get necropsy's done as they don't want to spend money to do it. Many people don't want to spend money on a reptile, instead look for 'quick fixes' they can do for free. Unfortunately, many illnesses or situations cannot be solved by the 'quick free fix' because usually by the time the animal shows signs of illness, it has been sick for a long time and proper medical care is needed. Problems due to poor husbandry can be fixed easily for the most part, but secondary problems (no uvb light and lizard now has soft bones due to MBD) may still be present and need additional care to correct.

SO, I do feel it is possible some bearded dragons and other lizards may have died from meal worms or superworms that didn't die right away. Even if they just break the lining of the stomach before dying themselves, that would mean stomach acids can get to unprotected flesh and slowly burn a hole through the stomach...not to mention cause alot of pain (stomach ulcers basically).

What we keep our dragons in and feed them in captivity is nothing like what they have in the wild. For one thing all the insects we feed dragons, are not from Australia so bearded dragons may not ever encounter hard shelled larvae of beetles like mealworms and superworms. So comparing what happens in the wild to what happens in captivity is like apples and oranges.

another thing, I don't think mealworms are natural carrion eaters, being mostly grain/vegetation eaters (hence the name, mealworm). They may eat a dead animal for moisture..but superworms seem more likely to do so for the 'meat'. They will eat each other if not provided with sufficient food. As I have been bit a few times by super worms, they do have strong and painful bites and I can see them try and chew their way out of something, even if its out of hunger.

As for pictures....I don't think anybody who has thus far answered your post (at least openly, no clue if a bunch of people have emailed you privately) other than B22 has any pictures. I did do a google search but didn't turn up anything. SO I am thinking, the best place maybe for you to get pictures are from your local vets. Ask if they can take some pictures for you if they do necropsy of deaths of lizards which turn out to be due to mealworms or superworms eating or damaging the stomach or intestines. Posting them up here later certainly will be beneficial for us all to see. Telling them its for a research project may get them to be more inclined to take those few minutes to take good pictures. Loaning them your digital camera would help too. Or, even a disposable camera will be fine, if you have a way to scan the photos onto a computer (heck, even taking a picture of the photos with a digital camera will work, though may loose some quality that way).

I have to say, since you brought this thread up, it has caused me to stop and think more about the supposedly iron clad belief that 'mealworms can't chew their way through animal's stomach' as being an urban myth. I don't think it happens very often, but certainly can be as much as a risk to a bearded dragon's health as being impacted by play sand. (or maybe rarer, though that could simply be to it not being diagnosed). I personally thank you for sticking around and calmly defending what you learned on your own. One thing I always try to do is be open minded, even with some outrages statements I have read on these forums. There is still alot of information not known about reptile care.

The September issue of Reptile Magazine has a really fascinating article about Gout in reptiles. This is an ailment that is not so easily to recognize and many animals could have it all their lives at one level or another without it being life threatening. But it can quickly turn life threatening and when it does, it is often too late. Even if not, steady medication is needed to prevent relapses, even if errors in diet and husbandry have been dealt with. If you don't have this issue of Reptiles, I highly recommend picking it up.

Well, I babbled on long enough.
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PHLdyPayne

I do have that issue. I skimmed through it but did not read much of it.

I think another poster put it nicely in that there are simply other options for food that are (as far as we know) safer than mealworms and since they are unnecessary, why risk it?

Someone on another forum said their anole died from a mealworm eating its way out. He said that quickly after ingestion the mealworm had eaten its way out of the anole, leaving a gaping hole.

One thing is that eating their way out seems to be much more likely in smaller animals like anoles and young leos, but it is much more likely in larger animals lik adult leos and beardies that they will chew up the insides, not making their way out. That means we don't see any damage and therefore have no reason to blame it on the mealworms.

My dragons did an experiment this am. They bit off 2 superworms just behind their head and front legs. Both superworms continued to move for at least 15 minutes before the dragons decided to eat the experiment.

Right behind the legs? That is significant information. Thank you for that.

Yup, funny that it happened this morning. I always have superworms they are a full time staple for my dragons along with silkworms and crickets. I have never had a problem. I think it's funny LdyPayne's comment about getting bit by them. I torture people by having them hang off my fingers by their teeth. They really have no ability to break skin or cause pain. lol.

Our tough exterior palm skin, softer internal tissue may be a whole different story.

hi
heheh
yes they have front feet where they climb with and people think they got bitten if front leggs crab them.
byeeeeee
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www.dragoncave.nl

oh it never broke my skin..but it did hurt a bit..but then again, the horn worm that bit me hurt more. Cool worms hornworms....get so big eat like there is no tomorrow but the bearded dragon and blue tongue skinks sure love them.

Both these bites are not what I would call painful, it hurt enough for me to know they bit me and it wasn't just the sharper first 3 pairs of feet scratching my skin. A bearded dragon bite hurts more (and those don't hurt hardly at all).
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PHLdyPayne

i have seen what a meal worm can do and it is not pretty.some may think that the acid would kill the mealworm before it can do anything but it doesn't if anyone has ever did there own fecal exam the would notice that 80% of it is undigested cricket leg's (considering that you feed your beardie crickets) now you can ask yourself if the acid in the stomach can't digest cricket legs then is it strong enough to kill a mealworm before it does damage.and as for the topic of them suffocating before damage occurs. it doesn't happen. the stomach contains a pocket of air that would allow him time to chew his way out. this mainly happens in hatchlings to subadult dragons which is why meal worms should only be offered only to adults and even then they should have there heads removed to assure that no damage occurs. i would like to recommend to everyone that you try the fecal exams they can help you decide the size of feeders you should use if alot of feeder matter is observed (cricket legs,etc.)then you should go with smaller food. hope i can help to shed some light on this topic

thanks, savoy

Hi
mine vet dith 5000 necropsie and never found evidence .
she told me its a myth .
when youre beardie is weak r almost dead r dead then it can happen .
byeeeeee
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www.dragoncave.nl

A lack or proof does not prove that something does not happen. A lack of proof from one vet does not prove that this does nto happen. That is in the Netherlands, correct? Do they feed mealworms as much over there as they do in the U.S.?

The point is that it happens. I have talked to many people who have first hand experience with this, including watching it happen to an anole and having a vet diagnose it as the cause of death for a beardy. There is your vet proof. I am not expecting to convince anyone, especially people who need to actually see it in person in one of their own beardies to believe it. I hope it is not proven to anyone by having it happen to their own beardies.

Hi
yes here they also feeding mealworms .
and many petshops give mealworms to beardies .
and then later in the weeki i see them dead .
low baskingtemp and mealworms is bad combination .
this is a discusion that end for me i belief it not happend and you belief it happend
.
til they find the smoking gun
byeeeeeeee
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www.dragoncave.nl

I do not believe or think it happens, I know it does. I have talked to people with first hand experience with it, just like you have talked to people without first hand experience with it.

The only thing is that it seems less common than I thought. Based on how many people I have talked to who have had it happen to their beardies and other reptiles, I was expecting more hard evidence supporting it.

btw
http://www.kikdierenarts.nl
email here and ask she is a very good vet and dith the 5.000 nercopsie and not found on case of eating in tummy.
she works voor ZOO and is good .
byeeeeeee
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www.dragoncave.nl

i honestly dont know to believe it or not myself. i cant always believe something someone just tells me like this without dealing with it myself. reptileguy you say uve talked to people who its happened to but have you seen it yourself? do you the husbandry factors these people used like basking temps? temps affect digestive system which may have been a factor. do you know the size of the dragons, if they were adults, juvies, babies? im not arguing or saying its not true, i just want to know full details.

i deal with issues like this now with feeding roaches. tons of breeders are using roaches as feeders, hissers, dubia, lobsters, etc. recently a had a poster on these forums who tried dubia roaches and he said they were terrible for his dragons. he said his dragons didnt even pay much attention to them, which ive never heard of, and he said his dragons didnt digest them well and there was alot of roach parts visable in the feces. now this is actually the first of this ive ever heard. ive had no problems like this with roaches and everyone else ive talked to love feeding the roaches.

anyways, ive just made it simple in my raising of dragons, i no longer feed mealworms or superworms to my dragons at anytime. i havent for awhile now. they werent digesting them properly and i just found no nutrition value from them. ive switched to using much better feeders as roaches, hornworms, butterworms, pheonix worms, and of course crickets.

reptileguy, im sorry no one could help you finding pictures of this topic, but IMO that just shows that the cases of this may either one not exist, or 2 not be very common. i think the best thing to do to answer your question would be calling some local vet offices or even some universities and talking with specialists.
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Beach Beardies

2.2. bearded dragons
1.1. Sugar Gliders
0.2. Felines *queen athena and missy*

I agree with beachbeardie in a way.

Everything is bad for dragons in someones eyes and they all will die from something.

You have people that say sand kills dragons and then others that have never had a problem. Some rave about certain food items while others have problems with them. If calci-sand, crushed walnut, etc. killed all the dragons put on it then it would likely be off the market.

But the bottom line of all this is that there would never be a disagreement on substrate food etc. if deaths and injuries were common.

I'm sure in this great big world some dragon was eaten from the inside out by mealworms. What the health and husbandry conditions were for that dragon who knows.

Every dragon is different and there are a variety of successful ways to keep them. But as far as food goes, as I have said before, I just don't see any benefit to mealworms when there are so many better feeders available.

It's arguments like this that are ruining bearded dragon husbandry. The fact that people take this guy seriously is funny. He obviously has little experience keeping lizards and doesn't understand husbandry. Theres a difference in not feeding mealworms by choice and not being able to feed mealworms. Just like theres a difference in not using a loose substrate by choice and not being able to. This guy is the latter. If a person says "never" do something that is debatable (i.e. loose substrate) then the person seeking the information should discard the advise and wait for a more experienced person to reply. This guy is arguing for the sake of arguing.

I feed my beardie crayfish occasionally and never have problems with digestion and pinchers destroying his digestive system. Yet you argue about mealworms See why it's funny to me

I just don't believe it. Obviously nobody here has first-hand experience with it. And if we're going on heresay from "reputable" accounts, then aliens are taking over the world too.
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0.9.0 Ball Pythons
0.1.1 Leopard Geckos
0.0.1 Egyptian Tortoise
0.0.1 Bearded Dragons

hi on bert langewerf websuite he have a faq site.
and he saying this
he is from agama international ..

if the worms eat their way out of a lizard, then you must watch out not to swallow a seedpit of a grape, as maybe grapes will grow out of your ear

i think bert is right
byeeeeee
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www.dragoncave.nl

I don't have details on the husbancdry care for the cases I have talked to people about who personally experienced it, most of which were not beardies, but were anoles, house geckos, and leos.

It is apparently rarer than I was expecting. I have talked to a number of people about it, but apparently I have talked to a concentrated group that does not represent how common it really is. It happens, just not as commonly as I thought. I think the important thing is simply that there are other options for food that are just as available.

Rumors without documentation are just that - Rumors.

I stole this from an article in this months Reptiles.

It happens, period. You may not believe it without documentation, but that is your decision. That doesn't change the past, in which it has happened.

This urban legend needs to be allowed to die the natural death it has already succombed to elsewhere .

Don't believe me? A mealworm CAN NOT survive even a few seconds in the stomach of ANY lizard-even in the rare case in which it might not have been killed by chewing. And stomach acid does not enter into it. There is no oxygen in your lizard's stomach-a live mealworm would drown immediately. To satisfy yourself that this is true, merely drop one in a small amount of water. You'll see how quickly the insect dies!

It's unbelievable (and amusing) that this crapola is taken seriously by anyone in this day and age! As said above, lizards have evolved for millions of years tackling insects FAR more formidable than our lowly mealworm.

Brad Chambers

>> To satisfy yourself that this is true, merely drop one in a small amount of water. You'll see how quickly the insect dies!
>>
>>Brad Chambers

I was going to suggest this same thing. It would be pretty easy to perform a very basic test of this myth. Let's play Mythbusters. We can all drop 10 mealworms inside a latex glove with a little water in the bottom and see how long they live. My money's going on not long.

It's obvious that this one dude is completely convinced that it does happen, and that's fine. There's no reason to feed mealworms if you don't want to. BUT, it's just not possible that mealworms are chewing out of healthy lizards. It's just not. If you've ever cut open the stomach of an animal, you'll realize it isn't a very hospitable place. Just because lizards may sometimes have trouble digesting chitin, doesn't mean the insects are alive and crawling around in their stomachs. Unless you're a roundworm or tapeworm that can resist acids, avoid getting crunched by teeth, AND breath without oxygen in gas form, then don't get eaten. That's the rule I live by.
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0.9.0 Ball Pythons
0.1.1 Leopard Geckos
0.0.1 Egyptian Tortoise
0.0.1 Bearded Dragons

...except for the times that it has happened. They have definitely eaten their way out of smaller things like anoles and house geckoes, which tells me they have enough time to do some damage in larger ones.

"except for the times that it has happened. They have definitely eaten their way out of smaller things like anoles and house geckoes, which tells me they have enough time to do some damage in larger ones."

This merely proves that mealworms are confirmed scavengers with a broad diet. The typical scenario goes like this: An anole, gecko or other small lizard dies overnight in a pet store or home, and mealworms find and begin to feed on them overnight. In the morning, what do you see? That's right-a dead lizard with a big hole in its stomach and a mealworm crawling out! This is how this whole silly story started.

Forget it and please STOP perpetuating this harmful myth about an insect that makes an excellent addition to a varied diet. I've been in the reptile biz for 30 years and NEVER seen a confirmed case of "mealworm damage".

Brad Chambers

I am not talking about cases like that. (Some of which just happens to have a mealworm eaten tunnel straight from the outside to the stomach?) I am talking about cases where the owner feeds a healthy anole, house gecko, or small leopard gecko a mealworm, then WATCHES as minutes later that mealworm is coming out the abdomen wall. Obviously, this is much rarer than I expected. And I am not expecting everyone or even anyone to stop feeding mealworms based on what I say (to everyone else I am just some random person online, I realize that). But I know it is not impossible. Very improbable, yes (easily arguable so improbable to be considered safe). But nonetheless it has happened. Even if it is rare enough to be safe for beardies, it does need to be addressed, at least for those feeding them to smaller animals like anoles, house and other small geckos, and young leopard geckos and bearded dragons.

Ron has over 3000 leopard gecko breeders, and has been the foremost producer of these animals for decades. He produces many thousand babies a year. All of his animals-from birth to old age-are fed NOTHING but common mealworms (Tenebrio molitor).

He has NEVER had an incident such as you have described. He too believes it not only does not happen, but can not!

Now can we all forget about this poppycock?

Brad Chambers

I don't know. Do you have comfirmation that you actually spoke to the Ron Tremper that we've all heard of? Otherwise this could just be another rumor. lol.

Lol-no, it was another Ron tremper who ALSO keeps 3000 leopard geckos ...

Seriously-Ron is a good friend of mine-he lives only a couple of miles away.

Brad Chambers

Someone I know knows Tremper and told me the same thing when I asked him about it. But again, this does not disprove the cases where people have watched it happens, it just shows what I already said, that it is very rare.

I've already explained what has occured when someone "watched it happen". It is a simple misinterpretation of what is actually occuring when a mealworm is seen leaving a hole in a dead lizard's body cavity.

NO ONE in the professional herpetological community accepts that this has ever happened, or indeed is even POSSIBLE....
NO authority on reptiles believes it.....
NO pictures of it have ever been published...
NO reptile book supports it....
NO reptile vet believes it occurs....

Dude, IT IS FALSE. I don't care if you believe it or not. Some people still believe the earth is flat. Some believe little fairies plant rings of mushrooms in the forest. Some even believe Iraq possessed weopons of mass destruction ....that doesn't make any of it true.

Belief in killer stomach-boring mealworms is in the same category. It's impossible. Not just "rare" or "highly unlikely". IMPOSSIBLE! Give it up.

Respectfully,
Brad Chambers

Hahaha, you're a little less delicate than some of us, but I think that pretty much sums up most people's feelings on the issue.

And to back you up, Ron Tremper states in "The Herpetoculture of Leopard Geckos" that he feeds mealworms exclusively to all of his leos. So, like them or not, they're a sufficient and SAFE food for lizards.

--scott
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0.9.0 Ball Pythons
0.1.1 Leopard Geckos
0.0.1 Egyptian Tortoise
0.0.1 Bearded Dragons

So even though someone watched a mealworm eat its way out of the abdomen of an anole (not come out of the hole, but make a hole from the inside and come out of it) you know better than them what happened?

I already stated that apparently it is very rare, so rare that it could be considered a safe food.

Just because it has not happened to you, top breeders, or top vets, does not mean that it has never happened.

"So even though someone watched a mealworm eat its way out of the abdomen of an anole (not come out of the hole, but make a hole from the inside and come out of it) you know better than them what happened? "

Dude, you have got to be the most gullible person left in the 21st century. So, you think it's more likely that EVERY expert in the herp and scientific community is wrong, than that this acquaintance of yours is stretching the truth a bit?

This person is LYING. When someone tells you he saw an impossible thing, then that is what is happening. You are being lied to. I know this may disillusion you, but face it-it happens. People lie-and it happens all the time.

Brad Chambers

This has gotten to be the stupidest arguement ever on this forum.

There is no way anyone can say something NEVER happened. I'm sure in the last millions or years it has probably happened. So just give up on jumping up and down saying that it could never. Some day you'll figure out anything can happen.

This is not one person, it is multiple people, people who have absolutely nothing to gain by explaining to me what they went through. It is not common. And as said repeatedly now, it may be so rare that it could even be considered safe. However, there is absolutely no way you can possibly prove that it does not happen. A lack of evidence simply means you can't prove that it does happen. Even when faced with evidence, people who have been told by experts that it does not happen, will absolutely refuse the fact. It happens. If you do not believe it, that is fine. But do not tell me or people who have watched it happen that you know better than them. It has not happened to you or a lot/most of the breeders and vets, but that does not mean that it has never happened.

EXTRAORDINARY evidence (to quote Carl Sagan).

So basically you're trying to say that NOTHING is impossible?

The rest of us here are trying to explain that:

1. It is IMPOSSIBLE for a mealworm to live without oxygen

2. There is NO breathable oxygen in a lizard's acid-filled stomach

3.No reputable observer has ever documented such an occurence

4. On the contrary, every experienced breeder, vet and scientist will tell you this cannot happen

And to counter this, you say : "My friend says he saw it once!"

What do you expect? Especially since this very widespread MYTH does tremendous harm to captive reptiles by denying some of them an excellent, nutritionally sound addition to their diet. Mealworms are a fantastic food for those lizards which naturally include beetles and their larvae in their diet. MISINFORMATION is our herps' worst enemy-and this is the worst kind of "I heard somewhere" misinformation....

Brad Chambers

Yet Again, for the what, the fourth time now, I said it is apparently rare enough to be considered safe. Yet again, it is not one friend, it is about ten people in the past year and a half that have given me the same story, 'my (beardy, leo, house gecko, anole) ate a mealworm, then it ate its way out'. Do I believe that everyone is an undoubtable fact, no. But I do know that it has happened. What am I expecting? Again, NOTHING. I know that many reptile people are so sure in their own ways that unless they watch this happen in their own animal or one of the reptile keeping gods out there says it happened to them, than these people won't change their mind. I never expected anyone to change their mind about this, I know how it is thought of in the reptile community. As stated before, I KNOW this happens. I am not expecting anyone to change their mind because of anything I say. And as I stated before, people who care enough about beardies to debate this forever, might as well help others in their threads because I know this happens. I am not coming on here and telling everyone to stop feeding mealworms. I am done with this. I have no desire to try and change anyone's mind about this. And again, go deal with people who need help rather than wasting your time on this thread because I already know this is fact and you repeatedly telling me things I have already heard is not going to change my mind.

"Yet Again, for the what, the fourth time now, I said it is apparently rare enough to be considered safe. Yet again, it is not one friend, it is about ten people in the past year and a half that have given me the same story, '"

This more than anything else is what puts your story in doubt, I have been in the reptile business for 33 years-20 of those either owning or managing a reptile specialty store. Yet in all that time not ONCE has someone come in and told me that they have PERSONALLY seen this happen! Yes, several times they have said things like "the clerk at PETCO told me this could happen" or "A friend told me this happened to them"....but never that they saw it themselves.

Ron Tremper, who feeds literally millions of melworms every year to every size leopard gecko-including newborns, far smaller and more delicate than an anole or beardie-has not seen this happen in 30 years!

Yet you claim it happened to ten of your friends? That's pathetic. You must think we're pretty stupid.

I'll leave this now, it's giving me a bad taste. I think everyone has enough info to draw their own conclusions.

Brad Chambers

It is mainly customers, some coworkers, that have told me about this. Good for your customers. I wish no one had to go through it, but some have. Just because someone's experience doesn't match yours, does not negate it.

I have been a vet for 17 years not including the 8 years i spent in college. 9 of those years i have been specializing in and owning reptiles. now that i have established the fact that i am not a blundering idiot i would like to say it happens even if everyone on earth but me and reptile guy say it doesn't. i have personally seen it only once. a guy brought a perfectly healthy bearded dragon in for blister on his stomach. i asked him how long it had been there he said he had just noticed it proir to talking to me on the phone. i made an incision on the blister and low and behold a live mealworm!!!!!!!!! not dead but alive praise the lord. and if i had known that this topic would be causing a bunch of problems on kingsnake.com 2 years later then i would have taken pics but i didn't. now anyone can call me a liar,idiot or whatever else you might think but the 26 years i have under my belt says i'm smarter than than all of those who says it's not possible so instead of trying to make someone look stupid maybe you could be a little nicer next time

thanks for your time

Thank you very much. That was the kind of info I was looking for, in addition to pics.

The other thing I was thinking about is that I think it would be easier to chew out than in. I think many that have done dissections may relate. When going in, you have the protective scales supported by the underlying tissue. Since mealworms seem to have a problem breaking skin on the inner forearm of humans, I can't see them just digging in to the freshly deceased belly of a bearded dragon. However, to go from the inside out, they would have already chewed through that supporting underlying tissue, leaving just the scales, which would be easier to get through since they now have no support. When I have done dissections, it seems harder to get in with that first incision than to open the incision wider or go from the inside out (such as when pinning down the skin to the dissection tray). I mention this because even when evidence is brought up of them coming out, many simply say it went the other way. (The mealworm happened to go straight from the outside of the animal directly to the stomach. It didn't go for the liver, intestines, or the lungs, it just happened to go straight to the stomach.)

Hey reptileguy2727, I saw a chameleon eat a wax worm and then the wax worm burrowed out his butt!...........Quick! This guys a sucker! 9 more people tell this guy they saw the same thing! He'll believe anything!

i just want to know how reptileguy can say HE KNOWS THIS HAPPENEDS FOR A FACT when hes just been TOLD by others that its happened to them. have you seen their animal with the mealworm eating its way out or have you had it happen to your animals yourself???? you keep saying you KNOW it happeneds but you havent said its happened to you or youve actually seen it with your own 2 eyes.

now we got another poster claiming to be a vet saying they have seen it personally. ok one case in what 17 years, cool. not something we all have to worry over. i honestly still dont believe it considering ive now talked to 6 different vets about this and they all say its impossible
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Beach Beardies

2.2. bearded dragons
1.1. Sugar Gliders
0.2. Felines *queen athena and missy*

I never asked anyone to believe me.