Reptile & Amphibian Forums

All,

I supply hobbyists, zoos, museums and researchers with wild caught animals for legitimate purposes including founder animals for captive breeding, research, education and exhibition. In order to cover expenses associated with this acquisition service I must charge for the specimens I collect. Many of the individuals I work for do not have the knowledge, time, money or grant funding to pay for expensive collecting trips to get the specimens they desire. And I can not work for free. There is a long list of reasons why banning the sale of wild caught animals is a bad idea. Some of these are:

1. It makes research specimens unobtainable.
2. Many species are not bred in captivity thus establishment of breeding groups of species not normally kept will be severly limited. This will have conservation implications by restricting the captive "safety net" population.
3. It would require researchers to increase grant funding to cover costs associated with collection of specimens thus taking funding away from other researchers.
4. Individuals who can not make collecting trips will be excluded.
5. It does not allow people to defray the costs associated with catching, keeping and breeding herps thus this will limit who gets involved with herps.

I do support bag limits to stop over-collection of certain species. Also how is game and fish going to tell the difference between wild caught and captive born animals?

Herp Conservation Unlimited (HCU) does not understand the reality of these facts thus they are now the enemy of anyone who wishes to have the right to sell a wild caught animal. If you disagree with their approach and agenda please let me know via email.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX
OHI2007@elp.rr.com

Sustainable collecting should not be banned any more than fishing should. If the natural resource can support limited, regulated collecting then it should not be prohibited. The only things that are conserved are those with a dollar value. Conservation through commercialisation is beneficial. License fees for the collecting can be funneled back to preservation of habitat. Indeed research benefits, I source many of my animals from the exotic pet trade for the reasons listed above. That allows me to use my limited resources to target those not readily available. Without the exotic pet trade, my research (and those of many other researchers) would proceed at a much slower rate. Collecting should not be unregulated but if the species numbers can support it, then it should not be blanket banned.

Cheers
Bryan
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Dr. Bryan Grieg Fry
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Department of Biochemistry,
Bio21 Institute,
University of Melbourne
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http://www.venomdoc.com

This sounds great but this is not reality. The reality is there is no date to set bag limits. HH new law has made it impossible to collect this important data. The big problem has been separating wild caught from captive bred. How do you control bag limits when you can not tell what is wild caught? This is the real world. HH and TPWD don't what that hassle. What they are doing is stop hobbies and breeders while allowing round-ups to exist.

because I'm only going to type this once. I'm not going to waste energy that is better served elsewhere.

Our stance in the HCU constitution is clear, but nowhere does it advocate a complete ban on commercial take. I am NOT now, nor will I ever advocate or push for a complete ban on commercial take.

The HCU constitution can be changed by accordances within the constitution. It takes a majority vote (2/3 I think).

I am advocating tighter restrictions on commercial take that include better reporting so that we can obtain the data needed to manage the resource. There is simply no data on too many species, and the resource simply can't be managed without the data.

As far as me being President, Troy nominated me, I accepted, and that was that. I would have rather had Troy as president myself, but his travel schedule was a major reason why he couldn't do it.
Good news that it is not permanent, I think the interim term is only 6 months, then you can run for President Mike.

I resent the Gray-band nut implication. I'm a snake-nut. Mike you are more of a Gray-band nut than I am now. I'm not keeping Gray-bands, and I'm not even looking for them. I've spent a lot of time out on the roads this year, looking for specific things, different things, and none were gray-bands. I keep my eyes open for them but that's about it.

My agenda has always been perfectly clear. It's about the roads and right of ways. I own private property in alterna country. If I was only worried about alterna then I already have a place to go. Further I have enough money to buy more land or get a lease if I want. But this issue goes further than the snakes. To me it's also about our right just to be out there on those roads at night.

By now those legislators know that I am not going to go away. Not from the legislative battle nor am I going to vacate the roads at night. I can still enjoy west Texas without collecting snakes from the road, but I don't want to be hassled if I'm taking a photograph or moving a snake off the road. I don't want to be suspected of a violation if I'm out just looking.

You don't need to accuse me of a secret agenda because it's right there in black and white. That is my battle and I'm just getting started. I'll tell you right now I'm not doing it for you Mike, or Shane_OK, or ChadKS.

This group is about conservation (for shane). We're going to work with TP&W and the legislators to come up with solutions that work for everyone (as best as that can happen) with a single goal in mind, conserving the resource so that it can sustain take in reasonable numbers - not 300,000 freshwater turtles for the Asian Food Market, and not 84,000 rattlesnakes in three years for round-up / skin trade.

Also for Shane, GA will have it's own state chapter, but it also has it's own unique problems. I don't know the first thing about GA other than the restrictive laws so I'm not qualified to comment on the validity of those laws.

I have some news for you Mike. The herp world doesn't revolve you, nor does it revolve around Gray-band nuts. Right now it revolves around a handful of Legislators and the TP&W department.
The most important thing I said to you was "tighter restrictions does not equate to a complete ban". If you can't understand that, and don't agree with that, well I'm sorry. But the state of Texas is not going to allow uncontrolled commercial take in this day and age. If you join us you are automatically represented, and you can introduce a motion to change the constitution. If you have a majority vote then it will be done.

Don't expect me to get in a peeing match with you because that is the last I am going to say about it.

BTW, you guys can also introduce a motion to vote me out immediately. Then I will be free to pursue my own modified personal agenda. But I don't think you'd like that near as much
as the agenda I'm pursuing now.

EXXCELLENT POST JOE!
But damn, I wanted the secret decoder ring and all of the benefits!

LOL!

Randal

P.S. Count me and Bonnie in!

Joe,

But your Constitution does state a complete ban in the sale of wild caught animals. Please see Resolution 2 from the HCU Constitution posted below:

Resolution 2: HCU does not support the collection of any reptile or amphibian from the wild for the purposes of sale, including, but not limited to, the wholesale commercial collection of turtles for food markets and similar trade in rattlesnake skins, meat, and organs.

So does this need to be fixed or what?

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

Yes we do not support the commercial take of wildlife. But on the realistic side we understand that it will happen. Or goal is to work on collection methods that are high impact on small areas keep the trade in WC to small and manageable number.

Things we would like to address:
Gassing Dens
Hoop Traps
Pitfall Traps
Or other trapping methods aimed at herps

Generally speaking field collecting or road collecting is low impact requiring a lot time and effort from the individual. We just want you to work for the critter, not just sit back with a beer and wait on them to come to you.

We have as goal to put in place regulations that will control the high impact collection, mostly from the skin and meat market. At the same time we want to promote herping, not just for alterna, but anything not listed T&E as a sport or hobby, and we want to encourage the captive propagation of high demand species which will offset the demand for WC specimens. We understand that people will collect, or trade or buy WC animals from time to time.. We have been around the block, what we are after in good faith here are the large scale operations that use high impact collecting methods.... And these operations are not impacted by the new legislation that is billed as a conservation measure.

If you want to help us get our rights back, put a leash on large scale / high impact collecting methods and grow an organization into something that can help not only TX, but other areas with senseless legislation. Then we welcome you aboard. If you would rather not, then we will not get in your way either. In fact we will give you a polite nod and just move on.

Nobody wins a gold medal for arguing on the internet.. But with the effort some people put in, you would thing otherwise.

Lance

Lance,

Well, when you are right and you are dealing with a mess of confusing statements by a group (HCU) that is apparently a little confused it is hard to get straight answers.

Your ideas about stoping high impact commercial collection are fine but you go to far by saying that you oppose "all" selling of wild caught animals. Then you say you would support limited sale of wild caught but you have to state that CLEARLY in the Constitution of HCU and you don't. Which is it? You can't have it both ways. In one statement you say one thing and in another you say something different. You either support the sale of wild caught or you don't period!

Re-read your last post. The first statement says you are against commercial take but then you go into some dialouge of excuses about allowing limted take while outlawing certain collecting methods so then you are saying that you are FOR low level commercial harvest? You are trying so hard to get a brown nose from TPWD's region that you can't even state a clear agenda.

Or are you saying that you are against commercial harvest but your group will ONLY try to BAN certain collecting methods instead of trying for an all out BAN on commercial harvest? Is that what you are trying to say?

I wouldn't trust your group based on this agenda. Plus you guys are a little confused. Whose to say that down the road you wouldn't push for an all out ban? Many of the board members have already stated they would gladly do this to get road collecting back.

Bottom line is your group is trying to be the perfect little group for TPWD and academia. I don't trust you nor do I trust them.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

Please reread HCU's stance more carefully. It is "HCU does not support commercial collecting..."
Not supporting is not the same as opposing. All "not supporting" means is HCU is not going to fight for it. It does not mean HCU is going to fight against it. In other words HCU itself is neutral towards it.
What HCU is against and will fight against is certain methods of take such as traps and gassing. Since you don't use traps or gassing HCU is not going to do anything against you.
It is possible though that TPWD and HH will, and if they attack commercial collecting HCU is not going to try to stop them. This is no secret and hasn't been for a long time.

Mike, any more questions?
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Todd Hughes

Exactly, you will not protect anyone that is a member and could sell them out at any moment. That is why you can't be trusted. Why would anyone want to support a group that can not be trusted?

You can mince words all you want but to ANYONE reading HCU's position it states that you do not support commercial collection which means to me and most people you are against it. That is what it says and how it will be viewed.

And another point about changing the Constitution. Is everyone going to have to become members (send in their money) to get it changed? I already know the answer but another sneaky tactic to protect your agenda.

No thanks!

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

Mike the consitution was changed already to accomodate you. Originally it read "opposes commercial collecting". That was changed to "does not support commercial collecting". This was done so that if you wanted to form your own organization supporting commercial collecting you would have a place at the table with HCU and TPWD. If you want to do that you are still free to do so and HCU will not oppose you. But if you do and your organizations stances jeopordizes HCU's goals of hobby/sport take HCU needs to have the ability to disagree with you. The way I see it you are attemting to disparge HCU because you could not get hardly anybody to join your commercial bandwagon. Now you are making false claims that HCU is trying to ban it. We are not, we are just leaving that fight up to you and whoever wants to join you. Trying to kill HCU is not going to get you anything but it may hurt those who just want to go out and herp, have fun and breed herps.

Aaron,

It would have been nice if someone would have informed me about this before right this second, don't you think? I am not so sure I by that but okay, thanks.

No, I am not disparaging HCU because no one supports me. That is ridiculous. First of all many people support me like Dr. Brian Fry from Australia for example. I can list many others but do you care? Most of my supporters do not feel like wasting their time arguing with you guys on the forum. But I recognize that a group effort is necessary. Something HCU fails to recognize. That is why I am trying to get you guys to form a more rounded view that still accomplishes your goals but allows participation from a wider variety of stakeholders. Why have two groups when you can have one? Get it?

I am not making any false claims. People will read Resolution 2 and view HCU as a anti-commercial organization. You can say it any way you want but it will still give that impression. You guys just don't get it. You are playing right into their hands but you can't see that. You are willing to sacrifice everyone's rights for your own selfish agenda. I can't believe that HCU is so naive to think that they will not be hurting research or the hobby. Dr. Fry came on here and said that banning commercial activities will hurt research and it will. He supports conservation efforts but not banning. HCU will be viewed as a anti-commercail group and you guys want to SELL your captive born babies! You guys just don't get it. I don't know how much more plain I can be.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

... just to keep arguing.

For the most part the rest of understand and are comfortable with the stance. Right now we are fighting to get ground back, and we have lost a lot ground with the HB 12 riders. Some things like an individual wanting to sell a field collected animal we will not get behind and fight for. But at the same time we will direct our energy into things like high impact collecting. And supporting efforts to bring captive produced animals into the market to satisfy that demand.

The way I see it, you only need to worry if you are a high impact commercial collector.

Lance

If that's what it would come to I'd send Joe a blank check right now.
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Steve W.

>>If that's what it would come to I'd send Joe a blank check right now.
>>-----
>>Steve W.

Clarification, I'm not for commercial collecting.
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Steve W.

1. It makes research specimens unobtainable.
a. research is different and should not be mixed in this mele. Therefore having a proper permit indeed should eliminate the issue. No one wants to stop legitimate scientific research from taking place.

2. Many species are not bred in captivity thus establishment of breeding groups of species not normally kept will be severly limited.
a. You make an asumption by that statement, papers by several people have been writiten about the subject, and it is plausible to breed even the out of the way animals as well, and there are people in the herpticulture that would and can and have......

This will have conservation implications by restricting the captive "safety net" population.

a. Captive breeding will save blood line of all different species for your childrens . childrens. A legal capture of wild caughts every 5 years to replensih blood lines is not out of the question.

3. It would require researchers to increase grant funding to cover costs associated with collection of specimens thus taking funding away from other researchers.
a. I think I made my comment above, but even captive born may be gifted for research? You may be making the assumption that everyoine that capotive breeds want to sell?

4. Individuals who can not make collecting trips will be excluded. Clue me in on this point?

5. It does not allow people to defray the costs associated with catching, keeping and breeding herps thus this will limit who gets involved with herps. I'm not being critical here, but I think that staement is a little bogus, how many thousands of herpers are seriously in the hole just keeping herps considering there food costs, lightiong, caging, vet visits, and what ever, mos t all the people I know are going to herp even if it does cost? So I guess I messed your point?

a. Proper captive breeding program should be open to those who pay for a license to do so and indeed can prove thier ability by going through a thourough review before being issued a license.

I do support bag limits to stop over-collection of certain species. Also how is game and fish going to tell the difference between wild caught and captive born animals?

a. You can use a chip to identify wild caught legal for research and captive born, those without may be suspected of poaching, depending on how such a program is set up.

Last of all even with a captive born program, I still like the idea of hiking out into the wilderness, observing all forms of nature, and hopefully get some camera shots of my target specie or yes, capturing a lizard which is my expertise.....

So on one hand captive breeding may eliminate some issues, but on the other hand there are some "inalianable rights" it seems that we all are losing.......what country is this?

Bottom line is that we all need to see a broader and bigger picture and work together. Cheers all!!!
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www.phrynosoma.org

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signature file edited. [phw 11/14/04]

I like your style!
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Todd Hughes