Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I know I'm an Az herper so my comments might not hold alot of weight in this discussion...but what I will say is this...

I have monitored this discussion for quite some time, thru HBs 2414 and 1309 being proposed, defeated, attached as riders to HB12, etc....There's been alot of good discussion and many people have done alot of work to see that herper's interests are at least considered...

Getting these legislators to take notice of us as a community is a feat in and of itself...getting TP&W to dso likewise is perhaps an even bigger one....

All that being said, the infighting and bickering that is happening amongst us is EXACTLY what the opponents of our interests want to have happen...Divide and conquer...that's their strategy...Joe, Randal and others have gone out of their way to become visible and determined to reach an amicable solution for all parties involved...Kudos to them for that.

It's time to realize that not everyone will be happy with the result...As it stands now, NO herper is happy with the law. Some people are going to have to make some concessions that they may not want to...That's the way of politics...Right now, everyone is upset with the law as written....if we can find no other common ground than that, let's at least work towards restoring the status of private husbandry of venomous snakes and ROW cruising again...After all, these are the two major issues with this bill.

I have yet to hear anyone seriously pursue an all out ban on "commercial collection"....doing so would definitely have negative consequences...This isn't Az...(where all commercialization of native herps is prohibited)...

Basically, what I'm saying is let's try to address these issues from points of common ground rather than points of divergence. That's really the only way anything is ever going to get done.

You can *&^% about a "private forum" all you want...but realize that the more energy you spend on that, the less energy is devoted to REAL issues....

-Just my .02 from Arizona....
AzAtrox

BTW...I heard that people are "hiding behind their keyboards"...for those that care, my name is Kris Haas and I live in Phoenix, Az.

why must we make concessions? we have made them in the past and it didn't do any good. These laws are an abridgment of personal rights and freedoms and should, on that basis alone, be struck down. PARC, TPWD, HH, whoever was behind it, are not our friends, and will continue to come down on herpers. PARC is lobbying legislators and fish and game in ALL states to shut down the herpers. It isn't any other hobby they are against, it is US. Keep giving an inch here, an inch there and suddenly you are forced off the cliff.

that there will be some sort of new legislation in Tx...whether it's about commercial collection, road cruising, or whatever things will change...I understand your point regarding making concessions, but the fact of the matter is that herpers as a group are not unified enough to be able to command the type of respect that other groups do (just look at all the bickering)...As such the legislators WILL seek to limit what we can do, and will be successful on some fronts because of all the in-fighting amongst us.

Some want virtually uncontrolled commercial collection...some want tighter regs...some people want stricter laws regarding vens, others want things as they were before rider 1309 etc. etc. etc...The point is that something has to give somewhere in terms of the "give and take" of the political game going on...That's what I meant by concessions....Should we have to make concessions? No....but the reality is that we do and we will...

I brought this up before. We need to stop discussing or even considering concessions. Bag limits, private leases, even agreeing to fill out and submit mandatory field collecting reports are all defeatist in tone. We certainly should not be offering up concessions from our side! We did nothing wrong. Speaking for myself, I want things to return to the way they used to be, or even better. I'm sure everyone else wants the same. So why show our cards about concessions on these open forums?

List all of the pros and cons in two columns. Us and them. Compare the two columns with a completely open and unbiased mind and you will find that HH & TP&W have only one, single, semi-valid argument (Note, I did not say motive). Commercial collecting is the oppositions' only argument and there is no proof that it is hurting anything. Anyone with a lick of sense can see that 300,000 turtles and the tons of western diamondbacks mined out of Texas every year is an atrosity. Commercial collecting in this day and age is contoversial and at the very least distasteful, but without solid data, it is a moot point.

My point is that in the end there *may* be concessions but at this point there is no reason to even consider them. Nothing we do is unsafe or harms anything or anyone. There should be no restrictions other than buying a reasonably priced license and obeying simple road rules. It's worked very well for fifty years. Road and ROW collecting is accepted in other states. There is no reason not to take this fight to the mat with ZERO concessions as the ultimate goal.

Our column is a lot longer than theirs and I'm very confident that we'll be legitimately back on the road soon.

Terry Vandeventer

>>>"Our column is a lot longer than theirs"

Since when does that matter? They can be 100% wrong while we are 100% right, but we are still an insignificant minority (made even less insignificant by our petty pissing matches) and they are still in power.

Politicians do not base their decisions on a list of pros and cons. They make their decisions based on interests groups, donors, and whatever they can spin to manipulate interests groups and donors.

Shutting us down earns them brownie points from empty headed tree huggers with deep pockets.

Our ONLY hope is to defeat stupid regulations by proposing and supporting regulations that have more merit and provide BETTER conservation.

All,

John is exactly right. I am NOT saying that we don't work with these people but we should NOT make any concessions if at all possible. Our stance should be firm and it should be the restoration of all of our rights. In the end we might have to make some concessions for the sake of conservation and stopping over-harvest but that is the max we should do.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

we can not bargain away something that we do not have.