Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Just a couple of things. First, I am very surprised that Bob was upset because it became about people and personal. The reason is, other then for management purposes, its really about each persons reasons and personal makeup.

Yes, there are many reasons, good and bad. As Bob mentioned, some truly do try to dominate or show superiority towards the monitors. Other simply handle them to draw attention to themselves. Yet others touch/handle to comunicate with them(that would be me)

When I was doing a number of shows, Many of you and many of a academics and highly education, as well as the GP, came by and asked to HOLD THIS SPECIES OR ANOTHER. Some HAD to hold a Lacie, or a mertens or a Kimberly or an ackie. They just had to. From little kids to grownups. Why?

So instead of going on and on about possible reasons, How about you state why "each of you" handle them, or not. Don't be shy.

O.k., I'll go first.
I don't usually like to pick up any of my monitors if I don't have to. just pulling something ,snake or lizard, out and holding on to it has never been very much fun to me. I get bored just holding snakes and lizards, They always do the same things when you MAKE them be close to you.

What I do like to do is give them reasons to WANT to come near me. Interaction with monitors is so much more fun when the monitors come to me on their own. Then, you never know what they're going to do.

Thats why I do an awful lot of hand feeding with my ackies. I can get the female to freely walk onto my hand or up my arm for food (The male is not so fond of this game it seems.).

That is also why I've been fiddling around with putting ackies in cages that are big enough for me to walk into. They're so curious by nature, if I get up into their cage and start doing something they will be all over me. just because the need to know what I'm doing. That is fun.

Jon

...well I only have one monitor and I handle him all the time for a variety of reasons
1.For cage cleaning and health inspections
2.To take him outside for some sunlight
3.Because I guess I never got over that "want" to handle my reptiles,even after 20 years.
If you dont beleive in handling your "pets" maybe you should take up rock collecting...

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1.0 c.b.02' 6' Pastel Colombian Boa(thanks Bill!)"Maverick"
0.1 c.b.06' 32" Firebelly x Pastel boa "Betty Boa"
0.1 c.b. 07' Het Albino B.C.I. "Cherry"
1.0 wc/captive raised 3' Savannah Monitor "Ozzy"
1.0 c.b. 04' 4' Everglades x Yellow Ratsnake "Pooh"
1.0 c.b. 05'2' Snow Corn "Zero"
1.0 Oscar 10" "Jaws"
"...does it bite?"

Peope handle rocks too. We have a giant gem and mineral show, here in Tucson. Boy you should see those folks handle rocks. Cheers

Personally, I dont like handling my animal(s) because they dont seem to like it. My desire to hold them is quickly overpowered by my desire to make them happy.

my animal isnt here for my amusement- its here to live its life. The fact that I, as a 'higher' being, use my intelligence to capture and confine this creature, means that I have taken on the responsibilities usually handled by mother nature- in this case water, food, light, sanitation, etc.

I look at this in a very strange fashion.

I often see people thinking in 2 mainstream fashions about a diety- a Natural aspect, and Religious aspect.

The natural aspect tends to not pay much attention to mankind, but rather be going about its business(maintaining existence), and man just happens to get caught up in the mix (being part of the world and all); which eventually leads to interaction between man and nature (be it a beautiful sunset that you see, or a terrible storm that you dont survive).
The religious aspect tends to have a very close eye on man, sometimes even to the point of watching individuals and messing with their lives; all the while DOING very little that can be percieved by Man. The religious aspect also tends to have a 'wrathful' side, becoming angry and destructive when its desires are not met.

I tell you this because I see a keeper as a kind of 'deity' to a lizard- a massive force that can completely turn the world on its end, but also can and does provide the much needed resources of life (water, food, etc).

I see many taking the 'religious aspect' route- forcing themselves upon their animals, eyeing them constantly, and taking offense if the creature dosnt respond well to its treatment.

I prefer to take a 'nature aspect' approach- I am here, doing whats going to be done; the animal can choose to interact with me, or it can choose to ignore me and simply deal with the results of my work. I dont hover over it like a mother over a newborn- I simply allow it to live, providing it what it needs to do so, and allow it to decide how much it wants to interact with me when the time arrives.

Hope i didnt come off all 'stoner philosophy' on ya there... somehow i think i did

'...well I only have one monitor and I handle him all the time for a variety of reasons
1.For cage cleaning and health inspections
2.To take him outside for some sunlight
3.Because I guess I never got over that "want" to handle my reptiles,even after 20 years.
If you dont beleive in handling your "pets" maybe you should take up rock collecting...'

I can agree with some of that, and disagree with most of it.

The cage cleaning thing- thats just bogus.
Thats done for your sake, not the animals. Theres no NEED to remove an animal from its enclosure for cleaning; unless its a seriously big job (the animal gets in the way) or the animal is flighty/aggressive (you get in the way of the animal).

What I CAN approve of is doing it for medical reasons- its HARD to keep tabs on the overall physical health of a monitor unless you have liberty to A. get close to it and B. get a good look at all sides of it. It can be hard/impossible to do this in some setups, and it is impossible (short of domination) to do such a thing with a flighty/aggressive animal. If such is the case, I suppose its a needed evil to protect the well-being of your animal. I manage to do it pretty well without removing or handling him, especially when he graces me with his touch and climbs up my arm.

I do not approve of taking your animal outside- I just dont. The negative possibilities (infection, parasites, predation by larger animals, escape, etc) outweigh the minimal benefit your monitor will gain from anything less than a few hours in the sun.

You take the animal outside because YOU want to go outside with it, not because IT has any real desire to spend a half hour in the yard. Thats my take on that whole situation at least.

That last bit is just a poor excuse.
"Because I guess I never got over that "want" to handle my reptiles,even after 20 years"
Maybe you should work on that- seems like forcing yourself on your animals for the sake of making you happy has been a serious part of your husbandry, even over 20 years.

"If you dont beleive in handling your "pets" maybe you should take up rock collecting"

I think you have it backwards there, as a rock isnt really going to mind being handled; while the opposite is true of most (if not all) reptile species.

I cant speak for anyone else, but I dont handle my animal because I dont consider him a 'pet'. A 'pet'is by definition

'1. any domesticated or tamed animal that is kept as a companion and cared for affectionately. '

Did you catch those 2 words Im focusing on here? 'domesticated' and 'tamed'.

A monitor is not domesticated. A monitor lizard cannot be 'tamed' because it was not 'untamed' to begin with. By imposing your will on this animal, you are not 'freeing' it from its 'wild nature'. You are pushing a set of expectations that YOU have about the animal, onto it. And from its stand point, these are often 'negative' and when it responds 'negatively' to said conditions, you consider that 'untamed' (ie, aggression when it dosnt want to be handled, aka pestered).

The other part Id like to focus on from the definition is the 'kept as a companion and cared for affectionately. ' part.

You CAN keep monitors as pets in this sense- but you have to understand that caring for them affectionately (by human standards) is not what they want or need.

You CAN be affectionate towards your animal without touching him- if only in the thoughts you bear. You dont have to hug your monitor to let it know that you care about its safety- there are other ways to show it that, and it wont understand the concept of 'affection' in the human sense anyway.

To be kept as a companion is something that all monitors are (or should be), regardless of setup, species, size, aggression, etc.

I dont consider my animal a 'pet', because a pet is something that has been totally and completely dominated by man.

I consider my animal a companion, because he still has quite a bit of fight in him and will continue to do so as long I continue to uphold my responsibility to keep him healthy and happy.

...didnt mean for that to come out sounding personal, was just an overall statement regardin the whole 'monitors as pets' way of thinking, which I am coming to despise more and more each day.

One little thought. After you take away all your smokescreen, u known, all that stuff about this and that. You are the same as a petshop, pet monitor keeper. Have you done anything to change that. Have your monitors lived a life, or do you hope they will.

Please do not be offended, but so far, all your stuff is on the drawing board and not applied.

The deal that bothers me is, taking them out of nature. Dude, once you do that, its all over. Then it becomes a matter of degree. A petshop lapdog pet on one end and captive that is allowed to dig, climb, breed and stay doing that for a long while, on the other end. But they will never be FREE or wild, or anything like a wild monitor.

I do not delusion myself, I allow some things like nature, but its not nature. Period. I am just a turbocharged pet keeper. Cheers

...not yours and ill do with it as i wish....hes growing fast,healthy as a cold blooded horse (according to his vet) and not the least bit aggressive,and also has out lived 99.9 % of all the other wc Savs we so often hear about so do all your dumb little philopisies(?) about handling blah blah this and blah blah that and i'll continue to have a nice healthy PET!
...heres a pic youll really hate!

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1.0 c.b.02' 6' Pastel Colombian Boa(thanks Bill!)"Maverick"
0.1 c.b.06' 32" Firebelly x Pastel boa "Betty Boa"
0.1 c.b. 07' Het Albino B.C.I. "Cherry"
1.0 wc/captive raised 3' Savannah Monitor "Ozzy"
1.0 c.b. 04' 4' Everglades x Yellow Ratsnake "Pooh"
1.0 c.b. 05'2' Snow Corn "Zero"
1.0 Oscar 10" "Jaws"
"...does it bite?"

First, I was talking to Nile Keeper, second, its my monitor(party), I'll cry if I want to. Is absolutely great, good song too.

I guess most people here come from old dictatorships, As they feel they compelled to do something if someone else says something. Whether it was understood correctly or not. Why else would you become defensive.

Of course its your monitor and you can cry if you want do(see that dang song stuck in my peabrain) Please do whatever you want.

I for one, could careless about others holding monitors. I hold, move, get bit by, pooped on, admire, palpate, throw around by the tail/head/any grabable part, monitors on a hourly basis. Big and little, by the way.

I find if the monitors are healthy and have a life, they could careless. In Fact, they not only like it, they participate in the hold thing. They look for it.

Its the unhealthy monitors that are a problem. But the problem is husbandry, not handling. Cheers

n/p
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1.0 c.b.02' 6' Pastel Colombian Boa(thanks Bill!)"Maverick"
0.1 c.b.06' 32" Firebelly x Pastel boa "Betty Boa"
0.1 c.b. 07' Het Albino B.C.I. "Cherry"
1.0 wc/captive raised 3' Savannah Monitor "Ozzy"
1.0 c.b. 04' 4' Everglades x Yellow Ratsnake "Pooh"
1.0 c.b. 05'2' Snow Corn "Zero"
1.0 Oscar 10" "Jaws"
"...does it bite?"

Sorry, cheers

You should have played him out a few lines just to keep him on his toes before you letting him know you wasn't talking to him. LOL!

That was a good laugh. I could just see FR reading what you wrote to someone else, thinking it was written to him, and then spewing coffee all over his monitor screen, "What the ----!?". LOL!

How old is your sav now? Nice.

Take care!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

....hes going on 4 years now...nearly 4' long too...about 4-5 lbs. or so...

-----
1.0 c.b.02' 6' Pastel Colombian Boa(thanks Bill!)"Maverick"
0.1 c.b.06' 32" Firebelly x Pastel boa "Betty Boa"
0.1 c.b. 07' Het Albino B.C.I. "Cherry"
1.0 wc/captive raised 3' Savannah Monitor "Ozzy"
1.0 c.b. 04' 4' Everglades x Yellow Ratsnake "Pooh"
1.0 c.b. 05'2' Snow Corn "Zero"
1.0 Oscar 10" "Jaws"
"...does it bite?"

I was thinking about ya about a month ago, wondering how he was doing now. Thanks!

Take care!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

np
-----
1.0 c.b.02' 6' Pastel Colombian Boa(thanks Bill!)"Maverick"
0.1 c.b.06' 32" Firebelly x Pastel boa "Betty Boa"
0.1 c.b. 07' Het Albino B.C.I. "Cherry"
1.0 wc/captive raised 3' Savannah Monitor "Ozzy"
1.0 c.b. 04' 4' Everglades x Yellow Ratsnake "Pooh"
1.0 c.b. 05'2' Snow Corn "Zero"
1.0 Oscar 10" "Jaws"
"...does it bite?"

Hi!
Do people keeping arachnids, fish, venomous,... should buy rocks instead?
If monitor where not pet? If people looking for pet purchase wrong animals when they buy monitors?
Take care.

Hi!
I hold my reptiles for different purpose...cleaning, injury, remove from 1 cage to another,and of coarse pleasure DOH!

The only thing, i'm not the one to tell them when it's "pleasure holding time", i let them decide... This way, perhapse it's a both side pleasure. Some prefer being out of my reach, i accept and respect it.

I dont have any monitors anymore, although a good friend of mine has a mangrove, and I plan on a small colony of ackies, and if my Dad gets his promotion, maybe a pair or Kimberly rocks.

But the reptiles I do own (beardie, crested, hognose, 2 leos) are usually very sparingly handled. The leos and crested are taken out maybe... once a week, tops. Mainly to give them a little exam, make sure nothings wrong, etc. But I make a point to interact with them a little bit. The crested will often choose to crawl under my shirt and curl up on my belly (as she is doing at the moment, so does the hognose) and take a nap. I also have a large artificial tree that she enjoys (trying not to anthropomorphize is a habit I am trying to get over!) climbing on, and usually poops and drinks when I spray her on it. The leos I mainly take out to check on them, and if its night time (I try to avoid taking out nocturnal herps during the day and vice versa) I might snuggle up in bed and read a book or play video games (on mute ) while they explore and occasionally find a spot to sleep in my pocket or under my shirt.

The dragon and hognose get a new level of interaction, as they tolerate it much more readily, and warn me (even more so than the geckos) when they want to go home. The hognose and beardie have both been to school with me. Before you go off on me, hear me out. My bio teacher is very interested in my herps, and would even like me to bring them to class one day, although I am hesitant at best... Mr. Koshravi, the AP Enviornmental Science teacher and Ecology club leader, is a HUGE herp geek like myself, although hes more of a feild herper. Hes had kids bring in random herps, such as a huge common snapper. But he asked if I could show him my hognose. Seeing as my school is only a 5 minute walk from home, and it was a pleasant day outside, I brought her up, with a pillowcase just in case she got fussy. This was a 'free day' on the last day, and attendace was even optional. The teachers and students enjoyed petting her and I think I got a few kids to like snakes. I have done the same with my beardie. The only higher stress I put on the geckos was when I took them to a 'reptile room' attraction at our school fair, along with my friends Charlie and Beau and their herps. We had some, such as the beardie, boas, and ball out of the cages while kids asked questions and such. We had a caiman feeding demo, and even got some pictures of the kids and had a marvelous time. And none of the herps seemed any worse for the wear.

The paragraph above is sort of a response to the sav keeper below who taked her sav outside for 'sunlight'. I would do the same, although the beardie is on a *COMFORTABLE* leash to prevent him running off (lazy oaf is too lazy anyway ) and in case a bird or something tries to get at him. ALL geckos stay inside however.

I see both the 'dominance' and 'interaction' sides of the issue, but I dont think I have room to speak there, I am far from expert. I have much to learn, and thats what I'm on this forum for, but I help and contribute when I see a chance.

Hope I dont get burned by yall too seriously for this one! Lol, have a good night!

Ok I am one of those darn people that just have to touch things. My wife yells at me all the time about this wether wea rea t the store or out in nature I like to get just as close as I can to animals. This is not saying that I must grab and hold these animals but I do touch if given the chance I may even handle them. As long as I do not harm the animal in a physical way I really dont see the harm. I try not to handle or interact in a way that is going to scare the piss out of it but I am sure anything that is smaller than me has some fear when it is approached by a being much larger that might eat it. To touch a animal is much more that just observing it sure by observing it you learn alot about them but by touching it you learn a little more. I have kept reptiles for nearly 20 years and no I dont handle my animals every day not even every week but i do reach in thier cages change water and spot clean every day and if the animal is in the open i normally touch it. My main reason in doing this I guess is to let them know I am their I am not food and I am not going to hurt them. All of my animals have come to accept this. My retic is really funny though If I dont touch her immaditly when I open the cage she is pissy and wants to come at me but if I gently reach in and rub her neck she is perfectly calm and gentle. I know she dont wnat to be petted but I think without it she feels something is wrong or maybe I am not the one that is susposed to be in her cage and she is scared who knows. Anyways I dont beleive anyof you can keep anyof these animals and not at least touch them not to do so is totally against human nature humans must touch and hold it is just who we are.

heres a quck pic of what my wife yells about.

I don't know if we're still talking about handling all reptiles or just monitors now. I'll try to break it up. In my opinion there is a difference between them.

In general, I think jobi nailed it in Part 1 when he said;
"Its not an inherited need; touch is the first bondage we experience in life, it starts even before birth, as we grow touch is the primer to who we are and how we relate to other beings,"

I think there's a little more psychology to it that might explain in more detail as to why "touch" is so powerful, but I don't have the time to go digging for it right now.

I'm a snake man. My first 30yrs of reptile keeping was nothing but snakes. I've only been into the lizard scene for a little over a year now.

Lesson #1: Monitors are DIFFERENT from snakes!!! (More on this later.)

Most snakes seemingly adjust quite well to being handled. I've always handled my snakes as a means of interaction. Dominance has never been a factor for me but I've seen some people with severe problems with it.

My snakes have always been an attraction of sort. Family & friends wanting to see them, touch them to see how a snake really doesn't feel slimy. Because I keep them docile thru handling they've even been used by some to overcome their fear of snakes.

In most cases involving snakes, I use a form of forcible handling to calm them down. I don't think a snake's brain is as advanced as a lizard's. They're usually less complex and not nearly as easy to stress to dangerous levels.

I did have a problem with a lil' bit of "macho handling" as a teenager. I was 15 when I got my first venomous, a 5ft EDB. Nothing short of a miracle that I didn't get bit. Friends would come over to see it & I'd have to give them a show of stupidity, things I don't want to mention here just for the sake of not giving anyone any stupid ideas. Folks, do as I say, not as I do.

There are snakes, there are lizards, and then there are monitors.

Bearded Dragons - I feel that these are pretty much social creatures, naturally. They seem to love attention. Mine seems to want to be touched. They'll actually perk up & move into position for a gentle rub or two when they see me. They're stealing my heart!!!

Monitors - A completely different world. A world demanding respect, in more ways than one.

I can only speak of the experience I have with my sav & nile. I named my nile "VN," that's short for "Vile Nile." What does that tell ya? It ain't no lap dog!!! Ahh, but we have made steady progress. Nice and easy, the slow approach. On his terms, at his time, we're finding mutual respect and forming a bond.

My sav has advanced faster than my nile, less defensive in shorter timeframe, and accepting a touch here & there.

I personally feel that it boils down to individuality. Each member of each species is different. Yeah, some are generally more responsive to one form of handling than another, but it comes down to the very one in your possession.

Something that should be considered about not handling captives. Someone made a referrence to a loaded gun in Part 1. I think it was FR, but not sure. Anyway, depending upon your living arrangements, whose lives could you be endangering by not attempting to form a peaceable bond with your captive?

Let's say you've got a croc monitor in a walk-in cage. Because you don't believe in handling you attempt to clean the cage with the croc still in it. The croc goes ballistic on you, after all, we're talking about a wild animal here.

You're bleeding to death in the far corner of the cage and can't move. The croc is guarding the door, wanting you to move. Is your wife or roomate expected to enter the cage to try and save your silly butt?

I'll tell you what'll happen. The emergency crew arrives, surveys the situation & calls polics or animal control. The croc gets shot, deader than a doornail. You survive. Because you made no attempt at forming a peaceable bond with your croc, it is now dead.

My wife and I did a little bit of an emergency situation walk-thru awhile back because my adult burmese pythons are 12ft & 9ft long. I felt pretty dang silly doing it but felt like we needed to. I'm not about to attempt to crawl into their cages to clean it with them still in there. That's no man's land. I handle them also for the safety of my family.

Just another view of why handling could be necessary or important.

Ya'll take care!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

you make a great point there happy. I clean my retics cage while she is still in the cage granted she is just over 10ft and retics are much lighter in body weight than a burm at this size I have found myself in situations when I needed help to get her off of me. One instance comes to mind about 4 months ago My tic had rubbed her nose raw while sheading and I was applying a little neosporin to hopefully keep infection out and she went nuts and wrapped both of my arms up where I could not get her off of me without getting bit or hurting her. Luckly I had showed my wife how to handle the snake in this type of situation and she was able to help free me from the snake without any injury to myself the snake or her unless you consider getting [bleep]ted on injury b/c my wife definaltly got [bleep] on I laughed but anyways I have learned my lesson and now the snake goes in a bag then I let her head only out for treatment this works much better. Without some handleing there is no way to truly keep these animals safly. You also need to have an emergency plan when ever you have large animals that may be dangerous at some point of another.

I'm glad your story has a happy ending instead of us reading about you. Now I don't feel so silly about doing a dry run. It only takes a split-second doesn't it?

For the record, I didn't intend to give crocs a negative view. I only used them because of the damage I've seen from some of their bites (wow). I just thought this would add another interesting view to the discussion.

Catch ya later!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

I never feel silly doing dry runs. I mean hell schools do dry runs for fires, tornados, bombthreats and so on. The chances of a real fire or something at a school is far less than one of you large potentialy dangerous animals deciding it dont want to be bothered on a day you arent expecting it. We deal with these animals every day and not to have a plan or someone around that knows how to help you in case of emergency is a must or you will be read about in the paper. My retic was still under 10ft when the incident happened to me so there really wasent a life threat but it could have been painful if it would have managed to free its head I would have been bitten probally more than once and for any of you that has been bitten by a snake larger than 6ft it kinda sucks. I try not to handle her unless someone is around b/c I know that even at 10 ft she can do alot of dammage and could possibly kill me not all that likly but hey odder things happen.

quick pic of the tic at about 6 months of age.

Oh, I agree that dry runs are good, effective, and should be done. There was just something about it that made me feel silly doing it.

I like the retic, btw.

Later!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

Hi HH, as a snake man too, that has included monitors. I find them to be EXACTLY alike. Oh except for the obvious, legs, and how keen you think exactly is. hahahahahahahahaha

Let me Clarify. 99% of snake keepers work with slow metabolism species, like kingsnakes, ratsnakes, boas, and pythons. Very few work with snakes what use a wide range of metabolism, like racers, coachwhips, etc.

In most cases, these high reving snakes, are a pain, they are always moving and BITING and crashing around and they eat all the time. They do not tolerate shoebox husbandry. The require a range of temps. Are you getting this?

Well, monitors are like those members of the snake family, but take it to another few levels.

The main difference is, snakes because they lack limbs(tools) do not change their enviornment to the extent lizards do. Yes, snakes have many nose adaptions for digging. But most of their adaptions are to fit in with exsisting conditions.

Lizards and in this case monitors, have legs and feet and giant claws(rakes in some cases, shovels in others) They use these tools to expand the exsisting conditions. That is, if its not there, properly, I will make it proper.

This is reflected in their behavior, many snakes, particularly the commonly kept types are evolved to fit a tiny area. A tiny nitch is you will. So a cage can fit that better then if the snake required a large nitch with many options.

Monitors are not so refined. They are very much generalist in this aspect. They are confined mainly by size, small monitors to very large ones. But in structure and related behavior, they are very much alike. A storrs monitors, ACTS like a Komodo dragon. Only on a different scale.

So because they are less adapted to a tiny nitch, they are very behavioral, again like coachwhips and racers(compared to other snakes)

Its something like this, snakes(mostly) rely on inherent design to deal with adversity in their lifes(we are adversity), with some behavioral traits. Monitors, rely on behavior traits mostly and some inherent designs.

There is overlap, monitors and snakes like coachwhips(and other racers) are very much alike.

One huge reason folks do not keep coachwhips is, they bite and they bite alot. And some will not stop biting. Well, that goes for monitors too. Some species rely so much of this type of behavior, they cannot stop, its inherent. You have to modify their inherent behavior to effect change.

To backtrack, if you keep these nasty snakes, racers and such, in the current successful monitor cages, they thrive. Temp choices, deep substrate, etc. In fact, many of the "difficult" species thrive in these conditions of choice.

May I backtrack even farther. Those elusive advesaries of the past. They called me rude and said I was poor at writing. But they never looked at themselves. There was a common thread, they always attacked me first. Even if in a kind manner. An attack is an attack, not matter how kind.

Lets take you, you will lure me into a situation, that I have to explain some tidbit. I give it up, without undue pressure. In fact, I do not even know, I am giving up something. They, attacked in a very basic form. EXAMPLE, you say this, you did that, you you you, explain, explain, explain. Often followed with, what about so and so. Are you saying hes STUPID(because he has failed to do what I have done) Sir, you understand, that is confrontational and IS an attack. They can say they are NOT attacking all they want. But that approach is a common tool of warfare. No worries mate, your on our side, hahahahahaha then drop the bombs.

All they had to do is be nice and I would have been nice. But a bad trait of mine is, do not be nice to those attacking you. A lesson from my dad, I suppose.

So I, like you, claim to only be a desert rat. Your a HillBilly, they should not expect to much of us. But they also should not expect to little either. hahahahahahahaha Thanks for the fun. Its your posts that make this fun. Cheers

Your right about those snakes.
I keep ptyas, speckled racers, spilotes, pseustes... The other day a friend told me: you have to throw away all what you know about other snakes husbandry when you keep those. The day you realise this, you'r ready to learn how to keep them alive more than a month.
Man i love those fast metabolism snakes.
Take care!

Those are sort of medium speed snakes. hahahahaha. If you get the oppertunity, there is snake, its called a mexican green racer. Its a full on racer in all ways, but get 8 to 10 feet or more. I have seen them in nature and had one for a short period. Talk about attitude.

Those speckled racers, I have never kept them, but again I have caught them and watched them in nature. They sure do have a different feel to them, almost lizard like.

I have a story about those tropical ratsnakes, I was with a friend in the field, and he spotted three or four feet of one sticking out of a hole in the bottom of a tree. He of course grabbed it. Then he heard a noise about shoulder level and looked up, only to see the front half of the snake coming out of a hole. It bit him right on the top of the head. hahahahahahahahaha Cheers

Are you refering to chironius?
Take care!

This is sad, but, when I travel the americas, it was a very long time ago and when I started to travel overseas, I totally forgot many of the latin names of snakes I was not specifically working with. Even at that, many/most of the names have been changed. Cheers

> > > "...99% of snake keepers work with slow metabolism species,..."

Including yours truly. ME! My experience is only in the slower metabolism species, ie, boids, pythons, various common rats, pine, and maybe a few more. Venomous - EDB, timber and coral.

So, yeah, I have to eat my words, because - monitors are like snakes (some), but they're not (like all). Ha! Ha! I'm trying my dangdest to keep my head above the water. Hahahaha!!! This will work until you hand me that next concrete block to hold.

I remember as a kid catching a black racer & keeping it in a pretty big cage. That sucker paced, and paced, and paced, and rested for a few minutes and paced some more. I felt so sorry for it that I let it go the next day. Couldn't stand wondering what was going thru it's mind.

This is what I love about forums. I make a post about something & you post a reply. I see that I goofed but yet I gain valuable information. You did a good job of explaining the relativity of metabolism to husbandry. At least, that's one thing I got out of it.

> > > "So I, like you, claim to only be a desert rat. Your a HillBilly, they should not expect to much of us. But they also should not expect to little either. hahahahahahahaha"

Man, if you only knew how right you are. Ha! Ha!

Take care!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

You did not goof, heck no, goofing is seeing something new and continuing to think the same old way. You were naive to some possibilities.

Heck, we all are. I discover new things all the time. AND WITH SNAKES. Like, we were taught that snakes used a few types of crawling methods. Within the last ten years(recent) I discovered a totally new method. And I discovered it by accident.

Snakes leave tracks on our dirt driveway, nearly every night over much of the year(9months or so per year) Yet, when I find them crossing the road in the day, you cannot find a track. Hmmmmmmmmm I mentioned this for decades, hahahahahahahaha. I would bring the whole cotton picking family out to see. I would say, wheres the track?

Then one day and lifelong friend and I were out Green ratsnake hunting. There was a big female green rat, in the road, on a slight rise, they are like all ratsnakes, lay strait as an arrow. But something was funny, the sun was setting and you could see underneath the snake. It was literally floating. You could see golden sunlite above and below the snake. It was really cool.

Then it hit me, an epiphany, around here(desert, hot) when snake are crawling on hot ground, they use the corners of the belly scales and walk over the ground, not leaving a "snake track" but instead, on soft sand, and line of little marks. Or on hard pack, they leave no track, as they walk over the little stones and such. Heavy snakes like rattlesnakes will leave a series of tracks like four or five snakes crawling over the same track(on soft soil) THEY FLOAT.

Soon after that, the barkers came over and I explained that to Tracy and she flipped out and wanted me to publish it. hahahahahahahahahahaha

The point is, after years, no decades, I had an epiphany over something simple. I think its suppose to be fun to learn something new, even from others, or by accident(epiphany)

Thats why I enjoy reading your posts, its fun to learn.

Cheers

That's interesting about the snakes' different crawling method. I'm trying to visualize it but I'm kind of hung up on something. Not that I doubt you, but I keep getting hung up thinking that it could be more that they're sucking their belly in, which in effect would leave them using the corner belly scales.

Aha! I think I might have just got the picture. You said they were basically floating, too. See if I've got it: Their push-off point(s) is the only part of their body in contact with ground, maybe the head or just slightly further back being an exception. But do they also suck in their belly?

What species have you seen do this other than the green rat?

I'm sorry for keeping on getting this thread further & further off topic. I'll stop after this last Q.

What's your take on snakes crawling backward? I sat right here at my desk the other day & watched one of my burm hatchlings do it. Just like backing a big rig up to a loading dock. Quite a sight for an old-schooler like me. Ha!

Later!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

I have kept black racers on occasion and yu are very right they are not like any other snake out there. They want to eat everyday they are allways on the move and you got to have a large cage for them. I kept a pair for about a year b4 i released them back into the wild. please no flaming on keeping wild caught native animals I dont have the time for it. These snakes were alsome to watch hunt lizards and frogs though. I hope once I pick a monitor species they are as much fun as the racers were.

I would not flame you for keeping wild caught snakes, I would flame you for releasing them. The chances for their survival after being released is very small. But its only a small flame. Because survival for wild animals is not all that high.

If I could help the wild animals you mess with I would say this. Either leave wild animals alone, that is, only watch them, but never touch them. Or capture them on a permanet basis.

There is study after study, where released animals were kept track of. Their survival was almost none exsistant.

I fully understand, this concept is hard to own. The reason it is you really WANT released animals to do well. Unfortunately, numbers tell a different story. When released, they normally die. Cheers

Thats very interesting Frank. I just assummed that letting go a wild animal back into its natural habbitat it would survive. I understand that in some instances where the captive has been in captivity for an extensive amout of time it would not survive like one snake that I have had now for 19 years I would not expect it to make it if released but after only a few months to a year I would have thought they would be ok. Well I appreaciate the info and will not bother bringing wild animals back into my home unless I intend to keep them for good.