Reptile & Amphibian Forums

why must everyone call a western/eastern hognose snake venomous..
i just don't get it...
Facts supporting my theory..

Although hognoses have fangs, they apparently have no ducts or grooves through which venom could be administered. They also have no venom glands but two species, the western H. nasicus and southern hognose snakes, H. simus, contain parotid glands.This appears irrelevant, however, as many cases of envenomation have been caused by the eastern hognose H. platyrhinos which lacks the parotid glands. Due to studies, it is thought that the venom is hemotoxic. It is not known whether it is an actual venom that is produced or reactions due to saliva or bacteria...

so, in short.... me thinks. hognose snake.... non-venomous..
what do y'all think... plz support with sources mine is mostly from herpnet..

Go to this link:

http://www.herpnet.net/bite/

Granted, this individual allowed a Western Hognose to chew on him just to see what would happen, but you can see that this certainly appears to be an envenomation.

Recent thinking is that many more snakes have venomous saliva than previously thought. Snakes like the hognose, some garters, and others are now often reffered to as "mildly venomous" but are still considered harmless.

Regards,

John D
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I am so not lesdysxic!

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1.0 Bairds Ratsnake "Steely Dan"
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0.1 Black Rat "Roberta" RELEASED!!!

head over to the Ven forum and post this for Dr. Brian Greg Frey...He's done extensive work with rear-fanged colubrids...

Long story short, their saliva is toxic and while they don't have "classic" venom glands like a rattlesnake, technically they are "venomous"

-AzAtrox

If by venomous one means that saliva or other fluids excreted in the mouth and injected into a bite wound by any mechanism cause some level of tissue changes or destruction, then people are venomous, too. Our saliva contains several enzymes that actually begin parts of the digestive process as we chew food -- and presumably, those emzymes, injected into a bite in enough quantity, would cause some localized tissue damage. To me, the term venomous should still refer to any substance produced and injected wioth the intention of killing or subduing prey, which would make the hognose's substance more akin to our saliva enzymes than to the venom of a rattlesnake or cobra.

I don't consider it venom, to me if the saliva is what causes this that makes it venomous, why isn't a komodo dragon considered venomous? hmm... Magic and I tried to discuss this in the chat with dragoro but he never said anything you all make much better sense !

komodos have no venom in their salive..jsut tons of nasty killer bacteria.

Actually, Dr. Bryan Fry has shown that Varanids do indeed produce venom, in addition the bacteria that inhabit their mouths.

www.venomdoc.com/downloads/2003_BGF_alpha-colubritoxin.pdf
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- Natalie
(San Francisco Bay Area)

1.0 Banded California King
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"Early evolution of the venom system in lizards and snakes"
www.venomdoc.com/downloads/2005_BGF_Nature_squamate_venom.pdf
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- Natalie
(San Francisco Bay Area)

1.0 Banded California King
1.0 Mexican Black King
1.0 Goini Kingsnake
1.0 Bay of LA Rosy Boa
2.1 Kenyan Sand Boas
1.2 Rubber Boas

thats what i meant ^_^
doesnt every single other specie of "Venomous" snake have venom sacs/fangs that CAN inject the "venom" ?
o.O

Hognose snakes are absolutely venomous. Mildly, but still venomous. The "toxic saliva" people have mentioned is venom. Definately check out Dr. Fry's site www.venomdoc.com.

i thought that venom was defined as something that is "injected"

but technically, hognoses don't inject venom, their saliva just kind of seeps in...right?

i don't know any suitable words for that though...because "poison" is ingested.

just a thought...
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Shed Your Fears!
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Venom does not need to be "injected." Venom is introduced by a bite or a sting of a venomous animal (be it a mammal, reptile, cephalopod etc). You are right...poison is something that is ingested. Venom seeps in and is not injected by most species of rear-fanged snakes: Boigas, night snakes, lyre snakes, and yes, hognose snakes. Hognose snakes are undoubtably venomous, but probably not dangerous.