Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Ok, so I'm sure you experienced herpers out there know all about this, but I'm still fairly new with this stuff so I have a question. Recently I was handeling my Cal King and noticed some behavior that I'd never experienced before with any of my snakes (we have a corn and a milk too). I was holding him (at sitting around a table of new people) and he starting "mouthing" my arm (for lack of a better word). I'm not a squimish person, and I understand that keeping an exotic pet is very different from keeping a domesticated one, but I'm wondering what spawns this behavior. He wasn't "aggressive," no shaking of the tail, he didn't seem threatend, just "hyper." He would smell my arm, then kinda put his open mouth on my arm, then close his mouth without biting (no skin broken), then would go back to just smelling me with his toungue again. He has never, ever done this before and has always been very, very sweet. We don't handel him on feeding days or the day after, however it was close to feeding time. Does he need bigger prey? Was this a feeding response perhaps? He's going to be 3 in August, is this part of the maturation process? Was he maybe confused or upset with all the new people? I love this animal and I just want to better understand this behavior. Thanks for any input you may have

HE IS VERY HUNGRY.

You mentioned he is 3 years old. How big is he and what size mice are you feeding?
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"Yeah ya told me, and ya wrote it down too. But how the hell am I supposed to remember!"

He's about 4 & 1/2 ft. long and I'm feeding him 2 "Medium" mice a week.

At 4-4 1/2' feet you should be feeding 3 large jumbo mice per week. Or whenever he is hungry. I try to feed my snakes twice a week(every 3-4 days).
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"Yeah ya told me, and ya wrote it down too. But how the hell am I supposed to remember!"

Hmmmm. . .that would probably be why, lol. Thanks for the info. He doesn't look "underweight" at all, but he's probably hungery as anything. Thanks!

If you handel the other snakes first he may smell them on you and that would cause this behavior Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

Some people choose to feed more and some choose to feed less, but an adult Cal kingsnake does not need anywhere near this much food. We are not talking about easterns or floridas here, I know that they are dumpsters. My biggest and oldest Cal kings got that way on one or two mice per week.

1 adult mouse per week though, right?

Posted by: snakelady2 at Sun Jul 15 11:37:46 2007 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

1 adult mouse per week though, right?

I beleive in allowing the snakes tell us what they want while others beleive putting them on some sort of diet is good. It is up to you to decide what is best for your snake. But just remember the snake is the one whos ecology tell us what they need and not what WE think they need.

All you can expect from these forums are opinions from people. I have been keeping, breeding and maintaining a large collection of snakes for over 35 years and make my living off of breeding snakes. I have worked extensivly with cal kings and people here just know me from working with florida iings. One large mouse is not enough IMO. Also your snake pleanty big enough in the head to eat a jumbo mouse.

What you snake was doing is normal IF HE IS HUNGERY. Most cal kings will eat cornsakes. The fact he did not latch onto your arm and go into constiction eating mode is a good thing because its not fun tring to get them off once they get into that mode. He probably was interested in the smell and was kicking around the idea of going into full eating mode. If you snake was eating a little more he may still do this but it is less likely he will if properly fed.
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"Yeah ya told me, and ya wrote it down too. But how the hell am I supposed to remember!"

Rainer I have seen many wild caught cal kings, zonatas and alternas "mouth" when you first catch them, first digging their nose into you then opening their mouths. If you let them continue often they will clamp down really hard and twist their body. I am not disagreeing with you on the feeding topic but I was a little suprised you didn't also mention this as an alternative possibility.

Yeah, one good sized adult mouse per week for an adult cal king is perfect. If your cal king's weight seems perfect doing it that way or with two medium adult mice, then you can't go wrong. Remember, healthy is not overweight or fat, but a good weight like you said your snake has.

I think your cal king may have also smelled something that reminded him of food. I had a bullsnake do that exact same thing.

Take care!
Billy
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Genesis 1:1

Billy,

Snakes don't get fat like people and mammals do. Especially snakes that are growing. If a snake looks fat that means it is healthy. The only times i have seen a "fat" snake it is when it has fat deposits which is a gentic disorder and not a result of overfeeding.

Tom and a few others have started feeding their snakes larger meals and more often and have experienced only healthy results Have you been to NokturnalToms house to see his snakes? (seeing is beleiving!). They have larger clutch sizes and can double and even triple clutch. Feeding them during the winter months (something that has been discussed here at leangth as well)when others brumate their snakes and making them fast during that period is against the grain.

Now before you say not all people want to "breed" their snakes may I remind you its not us that breed snakes, its the snakes who breed and do what they are designed to do. Females cycle and produce eggs whether they lay or not and males generally go off food during spring months anyway. SO the stress factors are there whether you want to breed them or not.. By starving a snake making it not ovulate is like taking a female fashion model and starving her causing her to go off her monthly period (LOL!) I think that some of you also think that snakes should "look" a certain way and dictate what a snake should look like and not...

Offering captive snakes many choices and you will have healthier, happier snakes. Take those chioces away and we might as well revert to the old TFH books and snake keeping of the 70's. But trying to make the snakes do what we think is healthy and offering them better choices will still not compare to the chioces a snake has in the wild but we have to try and undertand that its not us that make those choices based on our thinking what "we' think a snake should eat, breed, brumate ect. Its the snake we need to listen to. And this giuys snake was hungry and feeding it medium mice once or twice a wek is not optimum. Why not give our snakes the optimum conditions in the departmant of feeding at least by offerring food several times per week and if the snake eats, guess what, it needed to.
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"Yeah ya told me, and ya wrote it down too. But how the hell am I supposed to remember!"

I wanna mention that I do feed my snakes a LOT. They also have a little larger of a container than a lot of other keepers provide theres with and messing with temps also helps when fine tuning your approach to keeping or breeding snakes.

I was discussing earlier this year double clutching with someone who seemed opposed to the idea. I had a very productive year here and because I was so busy with things I did not introduce males to every female for second clutches. I got no less than 4 second clutches from females who never saw a male. I only got one in time, the rest went to the trash. In my opinion this is evidence that my husbandry and feeding routine is working exactly as I want it too.

My collection has been thriving for years now. There's not much to it really, when you see your snakes making choices like where in the cage they prefer to be at certain times due to temps you can fine tune your approach too. Someone also argued with me snakes in the wild are often thin. This may be the case but here in Texas I have seen many huge snakes DOR and they got that way by their own doing. Snakes often like to eat. I think Kings probably eat more than any other snakes but even the rat snakes I find here have great definition and even small ones are quite stocky.

The bottom line is if your snake is getting fat, you may want to look at your husbandry as much as its diet. FR once mentioned finding snakes so stuff with lizards tails were protruding from the snakes mouths. They can handle lots of food just fine if they're being cared for properly. If you wanna feed your snake one mouse a week fine, it may do just fine, but there's many ways to care for captive snakes and some of us do things a lot differently and I am very content with things here in my snake room. Hopefully others will be too.
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

" Snakes don't get fat like people and mammals do. Especially snakes that are growing. If a snake looks fat that means it is healthy. "

That statement is actually an oxymoron, and every breeder and biologist I know would disagree.

"Tom and a few others have started feeding their snakes larger meals and more often and have experienced only healthy results "

So have I with my collection.

" By starving a snake making it not ovulate is like taking a female fashion model and starving her causing her to go off her monthly period (LOL!) I think that some of you also think that snakes should "look" a certain way and dictate what a snake should look like and not... "

Bad example. Feeding a snake one or two mice a week is not starving. It is different than what you do and your agenda, which is to breed a snake at the earliest that it possibly can. That is something we have to disagree on.

" Offering captive snakes many choices and you will have healthier, happier snakes. Take those chioces away and we might as well revert to the old TFH books and snake keeping of the 70's. But trying to make the snakes do what we think is healthy and offering them better choices will still not compare to the chioces a snake has in the wild but we have to try and undertand that its not us that make those choices based on our thinking what "we' think a snake should eat, breed, brumate ect. Its the snake we need to listen to."

Yes, offering captive snakes more choices is a great idea to follow. That I agree with you on. One thing you have to understand though is captivity Vs. the wild for snakes is two totally different stories no matter what we do as keepers. Being confined to their cage changes the whole story. They have the whole earth to roam in the wild, but in captivity, no such thing. All that exercise they could be getting in the wild to work off big meals ain't happening in captivity, no matter how big their cage is. Two different things.

" ...at least by offerring food several times per week and if the snake eats, guess what, it needed to. "

That is like saying that if I eat a meal of 20 chicken wings, a small pizza, a pound of fries, and two beers each night because I can must mean that from a health standpoint, that is what I should do. That is not healthy at all. That means, I will gain weight probably. Guess what excess weight does? It causes health problems. Just because something CAN doesn't make it always the healthiest decision. My example shows just that. Same with kids. They may WANT to eat candy all the time for every meal, so I guess we should just give them all they want. Nope. Why not? It is just not the healthiest thing to allow them to do.

Take care!
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Genesis 1:1

That is like saying that if I eat a meal of 20 chicken wings, a small pizza, a pound of fries, and two beers each night because I can must mean that from a health standpoint, that is what I should do. That is not healthy at all. That means, I will gain weight probably. Guess what excess weight does? It causes health problems. Just because something CAN doesn't make it always the healthiest decision. My example shows just that. Same with kids. They may WANT to eat candy all the time for every meal, so I guess we should just give them all they want. Nope. Why not? It is just not the healthiest thing to allow them to do.

Again you are comparing yourself to a snake. They are on a completly different level in so many ways and can't get obese. Snakes don't fornicate either. The word obese just does not apply to snakes.
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"Yeah ya told me, and ya wrote it down too. But how the hell am I supposed to remember!"

" The word obese just does not apply to snakes. "

Again, like I have said, every breeder and biologist I know would have to disagree with you and that statement scientifically does not make sense. We will have to agree to disagree.
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Genesis 1:1

Back there you said somewhere part of the agenda is to feed the snake a lot so it can be bred as early as possible. For me this is not the case because I have many breeders who have been bred for several years now who still eat on ym heavy feeding regiment.

Next, these biologist types think most snakes in captivity are obese wether we think so or not, I totally disagree with that. Not too mention lots of people I know have beer bellys or extra weight on them and it does not always mean it is part of some sort of illness.

Many people on here know I feed the hell out of my snakes, works well for me. What I am guessing guys like you do not realize is though I may offer a 4 foot or longer snake 10 small adult mice.....some weeks they will eat all 10 and look for more. Other weeks they will only eat a few. Again, it's only about choices the snake makes. I just give them the option to feed heavily and more often than not they do. There's a lot of variables to consider, its barely worth discussing really. Let each keeper experiment and find what they feel is best for their set up. I have tried many differen't things in the past tw years. Some results are not at all what I expected, but overall....knock on wood........ experimenting has not led to any type of health related issues.

Keep in mind someone may take our advice and feed the snake more and be happy with the results, it's not unsound advice. It's just something we feel is worth a shot. I have a 4 foot Cal King that will regurge if she eats more than 2 mice, Brooksi her size can take 5-10. Snakes can be as individual as people. I call em like I see em. I hope to leave for Daytona on the 15th, how about you? Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

" Next, these biologist types think most snakes in captivity are obese wether we think so or not, I totally disagree with that. Not too mention lots of people I know have beer bellys or extra weight on them and it does not always mean it is part of some sort of illness. "

Yeah, these people have excess weight from eating and drinking in excess. Just like obese snakes get that way from being fed in excess.

I will have to politely disagree with you completely on feeding 5-10 mice to a snake at a time as well.

" I hope to leave for Daytona on the 15th, how about you? Tom Stevens "

We will be getting in Friday on the 17th. I can't wait!!!
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Genesis 1:1

Now hold on, I said SMALL adult mice. Part of feeding plan is small mice instead of large ones. I think "retired breeder" mice are nothing but fat and have less nutrition than smaller mice but I can not prove that.

Are you telling me that any people who are overweight to any degree are unhealthy? You'd be surprised at what is considered technically obese for people, many who are obviously overweight are really obese in the eyes of doctors but they're not paranoid over it. I don't get mad when people disagree with me Billy, but this whole feeding weight issue with reptiles in a sense is very similar to people in the sense that the symptom that leads to illness is being lethargic. If your snake is a fat turd that just lays around all the time then yeah, maybe it should be on a diet. Same for people who are couch potatos. They should realize that maybe they need to slim down a bit. I don't see very many overweight snakes anywhere honestly. Very rarely does anyone post a picture of a snake on here that looks overfed. I don't know why we talk about this so much? Regardless...to each his own and all that see you in Daytona I am at the Hilton
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

" Now hold on, I said SMALL adult mice. Part of feeding plan is small mice instead of large ones. "

Yeah, I read what you said.

" Are you telling me that any people who are overweight to any degree are unhealthy? You'd be surprised at what is considered technically obese for people, many who are obviously overweight are really obese in the eyes of doctors but they're not paranoid over it. "

Yes, of course not EVERYONE who is overweight to some degree should be considered unhealthy, but being overweight overall is not a good thing.

" If your snake is a fat turd that just lays around all the time then yeah, maybe it should be on a diet. Same for people who are couch potatos. They should realize that maybe they need to slim down a bit. "

I agree!!

" I don't see very many overweight snakes anywhere honestly. Very rarely does anyone post a picture of a snake on here that looks overfed. I don't know why we talk about this so much? "

Well, I would have to disagree and say that I have seen it much more than I would like to have. This whole thread was started by someone who asked for advice and she was given some different viewpoints to ponder.
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Genesis 1:1

Billy,
Whenever someone post about a snake that is 2 years and up and is way to small and we discover that person is feeding small rodents you agree and say its okay. Its not okay and bad advice. As long as you post such nonsense and say that sceintist biologists agree is also a bit of a farce. Myself being a breeder of a large colony of snakes I can hardly keep enough bodyweight on my snakes to keep them healthy and I offer them as much as they can eat. Over the yearsI have come to be close friends with many of the top breeders in this country and they would laugh at what you are saying. Most of what i learned is from them and their successes.

Normally it would not bother me but being a regular poster on this forum i feel a bit of responsibility to what you are saying needs to be corrected.
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"Yeah ya told me, and ya wrote it down too. But how the hell am I supposed to remember!"

" As long as you post such nonsense and say that sceintist biologists agree is also a bit of a farce. "

Not really, as I have conversed extensively on this subject with them.

" Myself being a breeder of a large colony of snakes I can hardly keep enough bodyweight on my snakes to keep them healthy and I offer them as much as they can eat."

See, that is very peculiar. Your definition of weight vs. mine is clearly different.

" Over the yearsI have come to be close friends with many of the top breeders in this country and they would laugh at what you are saying. "

Trust me, I am friends with many top breeders as well and they DO laugh and clearly can see what can go on here in terms of agenda and advice. Sir, you need to know that differing opinions exist.

" Normally it would not bother me but being a regular poster on this forum i feel a bit of responsibility to what you are saying needs to be corrected."

Trust me, I feel the same. We will have to agree to disagree.
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Genesis 1:1

" As long as you post such nonsense and say that sceintist biologists agree is also a bit of a farce. "

Not really, as I have conversed extensively on this subject with them.

You missed my point about being a farce. I had no doubt you did confer with some biologits. But biologists and scientists being experts? com'n. They don't know diddly squat about breeding snakes. Thats why there is a difference between herpetologists and herpetculturists. Those guys with degrees and zoo curators don't have a clue where herpetoculture is at. They don't teach proper husbandry in school because its to new. They let these guys figure it out on their own with armchair theories.

I can tell you a story that just happened last year when 12 of these guys showed up at my door along with Fish and Game and the states biologists, states herpertologits, zoo personal and the cops to confiscate my snakes. They said that all my Florida (aka Brooks) kings are illegal in Georgia because they are native to the state. I tried to talk to them but the cops said to just listen and learn. What ended up happening is was a big to do about something they thought they knew about since they referred to an old field guide. Long story short I was cited and told they will haul off my snakes. I finally got in contact with the right people over the phone to convince their herptologits that florida kings don't come within 300 miles of the states border and even DNA tests were done my Dr. Ken Krysco to prove that. Then they backed off and said i was off the hook (oh pleeeeez). Now they are afraid since all the people they perviously busted is a big mistake and they probably want the whole mess to be swept under the rug.

The real funny part these guys from the zoo, state biologits and herpetologists could not even identify my snakes properly. And they have never seen or heard of the morphs we all consider to be common in the feild of herpetoculture.

Just becaue they have degrees doesn't mean you should listen to them Billy. ALl they end up doing is trampling mud in your living room and stepping over your kids to stick there beurocratic noses where they don't belong. Not to mention the cars and neihbors looking on outside. And then they don't even aplogize for their mistakes. I hope you or anyone never has to be subjected to their "learning". What they end up doing for a living is working with the state and state jobs. Big difference between them and us herpetoculturists.

The real ironic thing was after they saw I was right they start asking me questions on keeping snakes.
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"Yeah ya told me, and ya wrote it down too. But how the hell am I supposed to remember!"

I actually do listen to these biologists that I know because they also breed snakes and have been for quite some time, along with their extensive field experience.

I am very sorry to hear about what happened in regards to your house being stormed upon. That incident does sound very ridiculous and I am sorry that you had to go through that.

Take care!
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Genesis 1:1

actually do listen to these biologists that I know because they also breed snakes and have been for quite some time, along with their extensive field experience.

Well I have extensive feild experience as well and most of the guys I know that do don't know that much about keeping snakes in captivity. They are a group that will keep a few species that they collected and thats it.

Also my advice is for KINGSNAKES and not other species like rosy boas and others which can cause regurge problems that are hard to fix.
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"Yeah ya told me, and ya wrote it down too. But how the hell am I supposed to remember!"

It's nature's checks and balances.
Nature's simple elegance is seldom seen, and very seldom understood.
If you have enough prey in the wild to keep more than 2 snakes (a male and a female.) in a certain area very healthy, nature will reward them with an extra clutch of babies, as the area can support more snakes.
Simple as that.
No instinctual mumbo-jumbo.
They eat lots, they produce more babies, it's not exactly a mystery. You can think of it backwards as well, as throttling a snake back when there isn't enough food to support two clutches every year, while reducing the stress load on the female snake.
It doesn't mean anything.
Snakes are survivors, and part of that is being able to adapt to their current conditions.
If you starve them on a mouse a month, they will adapt by trying to 'escape' (move to an area where food is more plentiful.
"move to the cold spot" (Try to estivate or hibernate.)
or "get skinny" (Remain inactive, losing muscle mass that burns more calories.)
They do this because they are alive (The ones that died didn't do this.), therefore they will always do this. Natural selection. Overfeeding and double clutching is no more or less unhealthy than underfeeding a lethargic snake to prevent him from being overweight. They're both artifically created, as snakes aren't supposed to be overfed OR lethargic in nature on the long term, they're ways of 'surviving' and adapting to their surroundings.
Now this is what I call 'thread drift'.

The problem is this. I have never had a fat snake in my collection and i feed them all they can eat. What some people are calling fat is actually normal. Thats my whole take on it in case anyone missed it again.
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"Yeah ya told me, and ya wrote it down too. But how the hell am I supposed to remember!"

Eh, I have seen(what I would consider) obese lampro's before. Man, I agree with you Billy.
Sam

none of this is comparable, nature isn't our enclosures,whatever you do, it is what YOU think you should do, snakes store energy in the wild so probably don't have to eat as much, given that they can find the right temp to do what they do, we don't offer much in that arena
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Todd Hughes

He could have been stressed

I thought maybe so, thanks.

It sounds to me like you had something interesting smelling on your arm. Were you perchance handling your other snakes before the king? Maybe a female?

LOL, as a matter of fact, yes. We have a female corn snake, she's 2, I want (with some help from a breeder) to breed them someday and have jungle corns. So I thought they could get used to each other's sent. We've done this several times before, but never with this result. Do corn snakes "go into heat" during a breeding season? Like I said, he's never done this before, but it didn't seem like he wanted to hurt me. She's 2 years old, isn't 3 years sexually mature? Thanks for your input.

You received alot of great opinions on this topic, and i agree with all of them. But, at the end of the day you have a snake acting like a snake..

~ Mike

Sounds like you have a very tame sake. I agree with Bluerosy that your snake is mildly hungry.

If it was a response to the scent of another snake I would think the cal king would latch down on your arm - HARD. Instincts are instincts and the response to the smell of a snake would be more intense then the response to mouse scent.

Try the middle of the road and go with 2 large mice rather then 2 mediums. If the large are too big for your snake's head, try 3 med. Large mice can be tough depending on where you get them. Some of those retired breeders can be huge.

Thanks! He is really tame, really good with kids, etc. We of course always supervise handeling, but most he's ever done is musk when he gets nervous. And he only does that if one of the kids is too rough with him or something of the sort.