Reptile & Amphibian Forums

All,

I wanted to post this email I just sent to Lance to answer some of the comments that have been posted on the forum since my last visit.

Lance,

Yes, I am still in the game and always will be. As you know we have a difference of opinion in regards to how the commercial issues are dealt with. I want a group that comes out and supports legitimate commercial pursuits with strong statements of support for the ability to sell founder animals, research animals and the like. You guys are not willing to do that. Why? I don't know because even if some of your members don't agree with this (denying reality) then they should at least realize that we ALL need to ban together to fight against all herp related laws and regs that are not reasonable. Having a bunch of splinter groups is a waste of time and resources. You can certainly see that? So to that end I will not support your position on Resolution 2. As for other issues I can support HCU's positions. But how much time and money should I or anyone put into a group that openly supports a position that is certainly not favorable to a large section of the stakeholder base? Further, since HCU openly states (numerous emails and posts from supporters) they will throw commercial people under the bus to get what they want would you work with such a group? You guys are in the infancy stage and I would strongly suggest a more moderate and inclusive approach while in the planning stages to build a better and larger organization. But you are fighting this at every turn.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

"But how much time and money should I or anyone put into a group that openly supports a position that is certainly not favorable to a large section of the stakeholder base? Further, since HCU openly states (numerous emails and posts from supporters) they will throw commercial people under the bus to get what they want would you work with such a group? You guys are in the infancy stage and I would strongly suggest a more moderate and inclusive approach while in the planning stages to build a better and larger organization."

Mike-

C'mon! "A large section"?? How many thousands of herp hobbyists enjoy field collecting in West Texas? HCU is looking after THEIR interests. Now, how many large scale commercial collectors are there in Texas? I'll tell you-less than a handful. Come off it.

Joe, I and almost everyone else is solidly behind HCU-let's get'er done!

Brad Chambers

>>Mike-
>>
>>C'mon! "A large section"?? How many thousands of herp hobbyists enjoy field collecting in West Texas? HCU is looking after THEIR interests. Now, how many large scale commercial collectors are there in Texas? I'll tell you-less than a handful. Come off it.
>>
>>Joe, I and almost everyone else is solidly behind HCU-let's get'er done!
>>
>>Brad Chambers

I'm with you on that Brad. There was once a time when collecting lots of wildcaught animals was the only way of aquiring animals. But times have changed and it's not necessary anymore. A few animals here and there for personal use is all that most people need and take.
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Steve W.

Brad,

Yes, a large section of people from around the country want the right to buy/sell wild caught animals. You think your little group is the majority? Come off your high horse dude. I know of Ph.D.'s down to first time herp keepers that think it should be leagl to buy/sell wild caught animals. You guys need to get over yourselves.

HCU is looking after the interests of a splinter group of anti-commercial hobbyists some who are hypocrites (have sold wild caught animals in the past). You come off it!

Yes, there are a small group of large scale collectors. Did I mention anything about large scale? HCU does not support the sale of ANY wild caught animals that means ONE dude.

You guys think that just because a dozen or so people are pro HCU on this forum that you have this large group and that you represent the interests of the hobby as a whole? You need to put the pipe down dude and come back to reality. Even if you had 100 people that ain't nothing compared to the thousands of people involved with Texas herps in some way.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

Form that pro-commercial group that you're always threatening us with, Mike. It'll be amusing to see you mailing out your dozen newsletters every month.

Brad Chambers

Mike
I don't know you personally and I don't want to see you or anyone who acts responibly go out of business. I do think you should quit worrying about HCU and concentrate on formulating a base to support your issue. Attacking HCU doesn't help anyone. Ultimately when the legislature meets I am certain that commercial collectors will be treated different from hobbyists.If you want your business to survive you really should develope a plan and not worry about HCU or any other group. Your needs are different.
Richard Strieber

I think Damon lined it all up perfectly. But then, I think many already have as well and you still don't get it.

Your points are pointless Mr. Mike. So you want to be a commercial collector, fine, be one. I know I have no plan on standing in your way. I can't speak for HCU, but I would bet that the organization doesn't give a flippin rats A either. Just do what you want. If you don't like what others are doing, get over it and move on. Besides, they have NEVER said they oppose commercial collecting. So why you can't understand that is beyond me. I guess you just can't see difference between "do not support" and "oppose". Hell, I don't have a BS and I know the difference. One would think you could understand such simple terms with your higher learning and all.

Hey, thanks for all the laughs you've provided though.

Mike:
Most of us have sold or traded w/c andimals but that doesn't make us commercial collectors. However, times are a'changing. You can't go back to the days when a single individual was shipping out `10,000 collared lizards each year, nor another shipping over 1,000 box turtles annually. Look at the Texas tortoise - one individual from Laredo was responsible for nearly eradicating them. The individual who shipped so many collared lizards is now puzzled as to why he can't find them any more.

Time to do some work and start breeding the stuff. I realize it will take a few years to build up a good breeding colony, but the days of commercial collection are over. We have a greater demand than ever for animals such as box turtles and collared lizards and the massive collection cannot continue. Where I used to see 5-9 box turtles on a drive I now see none. I haven't seen a collared lizard in several years. Box turtles take years to get to breeding size, have small clutches and the young are very susceptible to predation. You want to sell them then take the time to breed them.

John

John,

If you sell ONE animal whether CB or WC you are commercial. I agree that "massive" collection is over. I have NEVER supported "massive" collection. But the sale of WC days should NEVER be over. Legitimate people need to have access to WC w/o having to spend a fortune to get them. And people who spend thier time and money to get these animals for them need to be paid for thier services.

Collectors for the most part do very little damage to populations. More herps are killed on the roads then are ever collected. Then on top of that development is running wild and then add in fire ants. Collection is nothing. Who is to say that a lot of the animals collected are not displaced animals? Do you know that they aren't?

Captive breeding should be top priority for certain species. If a species has high demand for the pet trade or research or food then it should be bred in captivity to supply the demand. But those people need founder animals. The idea is to allow low impact commercial harvest for legitiamte reasons and not to use WC to feed the demand but use the WC to produce captive babies to feed the demand. This is why the door needs to remain open. Locality specifics is another reason the door needs to remain open. Species that are not bred in captivity is another reason the door needs to remain open. Reserchers who require WC is another reason the door needs to remain open. And in many other posts on the forum we have discussed why it is necessary to sell these animals to accomplish these goals. Life isn't free.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

>>John,
>>
>>If you sell ONE animal whether CB or WC you are commercial.

>>Mike Welker
>>El Paso, TX

You pointed it out yourself in this statement. Commercial breeders and commercial collectors are "not the same".
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Steve W.

Mike, let it go, we have.

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Todd Hughes

Todd,

I will never let it go. If you guys don't want to respond that is fine. But when people post issues that affect me I must respond. I have the freedom to respond. I have the obligation to respond.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

Agreed but there was some good advice given for you to concentrate on your cause, if you continue bashing us for our views, I would find it difficult to stand aside when your train pulls into the station, might want to vote to change our stance to oppose, as it is we are neutral.
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Todd Hughes

Todd,

I am not bashing anybody. I am explaining in detailed constructive responses why your positions are not good and why. I am just expressing my opinion. This is America, right? I have given up trying to convince those of you who do not want to be convinced. You are not trying to censor me are you? You are not trying to threaten me with a position change? You are not trying to quell me are you?

I didn't think so but I was just checking.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

>>Todd,
>>
>>I will never let it go. If you guys don't want to respond that is fine. But when people post issues that affect me I must respond. I have the freedom to respond. I have the obligation to respond.
>>
>>Mike Welker
>>El Paso, TX

You're right, you have the freedon to respond but not the right to push your interests on others. They/we have the same right to say you have to stand up for your cause just like we are standing up for ours. Maybe it's time to start your own organization.
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Steve W.

Mike-- it was already apparent that, as a commercial collector, you want the HCU to defend commercial collectors. The main reason this is not feasible is simple: commercial collectors are the main source of objections--legitimate and otherwise--raised against herpers. Avoiding association with commercial collection takes a great big "kick me" sign off of HCU's back. Furthermore, commercial collectors are a very small group, and are often at odds with hobbyist field herpers; there is little for HCU to gain and much to lose.

Patrick

Not true. Many hobbyists buy animals from me. Researchers buy animals from me. Zoos buy animals from me. Where do you think most of the herps came from that are in your favorite zoo? That is right, people who collected herps and sold them. Where do you think many of the founder animals came from that currently support the captive market? That's right they were collected and sold. Almost every exotic herp is a sold WC.

It is really pitful that you guys can't see the reality of this. It is a shame. It is obvious that most of you have not been around that long if you want to argue about what is posted above because that is fact. You can live in your fantasy world all you want but you DO NOT know the consquences of your actions.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

>> Where do you think many of the founder animals came from that currently support the captive market? That's right they were collected and sold. >>
>>>>
>>Mike Welker
>>El Paso, TX

You're right about that. But because you fella's did such a fine job back then there's no longer such a demand for wildcaughts because cb's are plentiful.
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Steve W.

Just think if personal take was open internationally and commercial collection was closed. Do you have any idea how many herpers would be going other countries? The benifits are these countries would actually see 1000X the revenue per animal yet probably less than 10% of the numbers would be taken. More of the animals taken would be taken by breeders dedicated enough to transport back safely rather than stacked one on top of the other, little to no time in holding facilities where they waste away, locality data would be more easily maintained and the animals would have a predetermined homes waiting for them. Individual animal value would be increased leading to more incentive to breed and those who could not afford trips would most likely afford captive borns.
As it is now you need to invest $1,000's in permits and place huge orders to get anything into the country.
The only real drawback would be less disposable "junk" species that sell for $10 to a pet store and probably die half the time.

It seems to me that for the most part hobbyists are driven by passion, commercial entities by money. One has the well-being of the animal as the primary objective... the other the well-being of the wallet. There are some exceptions out there... the old Zooherp days with Louie being a prime example. Personal take keeps focus on what I see to be the important aspects of hobbyist herpetology and herpetoculture. Commercialization sometimes turns what is a passion into a bad job. The focus shifts to leases, expenses, write-offs, and invoices. Money HAS to be made and many times it turns out to be at the expense of the animal instead of in support of it.

Great post Aaron.

.

I agree good post. But Damon is not telling it like it is necessarily. You can have passion about the animals and still engage in commercial pursuits. If I was all about the money: 1) I wouldn't be into herps. 2) I would catch everything I could find and sell it. I catch less than 10% of what I find and sell even less. 3) I would be supporting high impact commercial collection and I don't. 4) I actually hate money ask my mom. I think money grubbing in this country is the real reason that all the natural resources are in trouble but we can't change our capitalistic system can we? Well, yes, we could but we won't.

So I know you are not talking about me.

You guys have a bias and a preconceived notion about commercial people. It is pretty obvious. No commercial person could EVER do anything good in some peoples mind. That causes some people to be hypocrites especially on this forum (not saying that about Aaron or Damon don't know them but heard stories about others and know for a fact about some).

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

I was very conscious and deliberate in the use of phrasing like "for the most part", "sometimes", and "there are exceptions" in order to provided the disclaimers that demonstrated the exact point you indicate that I did not "tell like it is necessarily".

I guess my point is that any "occupation" is necessary as a method of providing for one's self. It is optimal to enjoy any chosen occupation, but the purpose of the occupation remains... to provide. When the ability to provide satisfactorily becomes threatened, it is often too tempting (and I’ve seen this time and time again with commercial collectors) to engage in activities that cast shadows over moral and ethical lines and impinge on principles of ecology and conservation. Mike, you may indeed be a responsible collector, but the bias I and others have developed over the years has been come by honestly and constructed of generalizations built from personal experiences with commercial collectors. The reputation has been sullied (and you’d I’m sure agree) that there is an uphill battle for any commercial entity in attempting to create distance from that reputation. It’s certainly not my intent to imply a “high-brow” perspective from the hobbyist side, but the hobbyists I know spend their own money and time to participate in an activity they love. Commercial folks by definition have to approach their occupation, whether they enjoy their work or not, with the bottom line in mind and sometimes that bottom line pressures them to make bad decisions.

Damon,

I would tend to agree with you. In my case my wife is the provider and thank god for that. With my responsible business practices (putting conservation first) I would be hard pressed to make enough to survive. I spend most of my time collecting founder animals for captive breeding and picking up specimens for others comes second but sometimes it is vise versa.

This is why I have been fighting so hard to keep the door open. There are so many legitimate reasons to keep low impact collection and sale open. Just the fact that it is low (or "no" impact in a lot of cases)impact will automatically shut down the harmful over-collectors but it also keeps the door open for legitimate practices just in case.

I think that many of the people who have been slamming me so hard see that "commercial" image you speak of. They don't bother to pay attention to what I say and do in running my business. The see the word "commercial" and then I am a bad guy, period end of discussion. All of the other positive things I have done in the field of herpetology are meaningless at that point and that really bothers me. Do you know how hard it is to work in the field of herpetology w/o a Doctorate? It is very tough!

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

Also that is why I started this business. I get to do what I love...go herping. But at the same time I can:

1. I can get animals for research projects that can help the species, increase knowledge and help people with medicine.
2. I can get specimens that can be used in education which has a broad benefit to the species.
3. I can acquire animals for zoos and private people that have a direct conservation implication. The captive "saftey net" I talk about.
4. I can pick up DORs to help document the herpetological record.
5. I will be taking detailed weather data that can be used to benefit the science and the species.
6. I can get founder animals for hobbyists which will help foster a love for herps, help in the production of captive born specimens and provide the opportunity for learning new husbandry and reproduction techniques.
7. I can cover a SMALL portion of my expenses by charging for the animals.

Hey, I just realized why I am getting hammered so hard y'all are jealous! My job is to go herping and I do it responsibly so you really don't have a good arguement against it. Y'all are jealous!

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

Nothing you said contradicted my statements. So where does the "not true" come in?

For what it's worth, in the botanical world where I do my research, there are no commercial plant collectors to collect things for me and commercial plant collection has been illegal on public land in the U.S. for decades. So I have a pretty good idea what the terrible consequences are here. And you know what? Botanical researchers and gardeners do just fine.

Patrick