Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Here in Az there is NO commercial collecction...we have bag limits on native reptiles & amphibians, and it is legal to catch so long as you're within bag limits....(in fact, other than getting an animal "gifted" to you from somewhere else, this is the only legal way to come into possession of many Az native animals.) In regards to venomous (my personal choice) even an atrox brought in from a neighboring state is considfered "exotic" and therefore illegal to own in Az...point is, you gotta go out and catch your own or have someone give you one, but YOU CAN'T SELL IT, TRADE IT, ETC!!!!

You know what? It works....I will say I disgaree with alot of Az laws re: nongame management, but instituting bag limits per person (reasonable ones at that...in most cases it's 4 animals per person) is one responsible thing AzG&F has done. What's more, even if you DO breed native animals, you can keep the offspring (in most cases) up to one year before having to gift them to others...(In a few cases you can keep them up to 2 years.)

I can assure you that Az has a very alive and vibrant herp keeping community...and I don't see anyone griping about it being illegal to sell wild caught animals...We still have out of state morons that will come to Az to collect 300 Coleonyx geckos or 75 atrox and try to sell them as cb....That is already illegal and only enforcement of current laws (and self policing by herpers) can curb that.

You're right in one respect Mike...Collection of wc animals is necessary to a certain extent....but the commercialization of said wc animals ISN'T necessary...Most people (at least here in Az) are completely satisfied with the current bag limits imposed, and can still breed their native animals and experience that area of captive husbandry...they may not make money off of the breeding, but they're not doing it for the money anyway....

Just my .02 from the surface of the sun....
-AzAtrox (Kris Haas)

AZ Atrox,

Yes, bag limits are great for species that are in high demand and have natural histories that allow over-harvest. But I disagree with not allowing the sale of CB and animals caught under bag limits.

The reality is that not all species are bred in captivity. As a matter of fact a majority of species are not bred in captivity. Low impact commercial harvest does not harm populations. Some species are needed for founder animals, research and exhibits. People can not afford to travel around to get all the species they need. It is way beyond most budgets. Some commerce is necessary to insure that researchers and hobbyistst can acquire the species they need. And this does not hurt populations. The things that hurt populations are development, roads and human population growth. Now high impact commercial collection of some species may hurt populations but we need data to back that up. You can't just take away peoples rights just because you THINK something or you FEEL something. The most that should ever be done in regards to restrictions is bag limits and husbandry requirements. The Texas boys are not going to support the "no sale of CB animals" like AZ. I am sure of that.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

I agree that having bag limits is a good idea. I too am an AZ resident and have been an active field herper in AZ since 1993.

What I do not agree with, and I also have many AZ herpers who are behind me on this, is that you should be able to sell your CB offspring.

There are already several states that do allow this and are doing so successfully. Once such state is California. In CA, you can purchase a captive breeding permit and can legally collect, breed and offer for sale the offspring that were produced. This program currently only allows this for california kingsnakes, rosy boas, and gopher snakes.

All in all, the program is a great idea. It allows people their freedoms, while still maintaining bag limits for wild collected herps. The captive bred animals are then sold into the marketplace, thus reducing the demand on wild collected herps.

I believe that AZ should also adopt a similar measure, as do many other AZ herpers.

I do not like the idea of people selling wild collected reptiles, but I do not see anything wrong with encouraging people to captive breed their reptiles through allowing the sale of captive bred native reptiles.

All,

I agree and the reason why AZGFD does not let you sell CB maybe because how are they going to tell the difference between WC and CB?

I have been trying to explain this to the TX boys and some get it and some don't.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

The way california handles that is that the breeder fills out a form annually with the number of offspring produced and who they are sold to.

The buyer of one of the CB offspring then gets a receipt with the license number of the breeder to show where the animal originated (ie. to prove it was not wild caught)

The system works well. It is not perfect, but it is perfect enough to keep Law enforcement possible and also to preserve personal liberties.

Just because something is difficult to enforce, however, does not mean that the government has the right to do away with it. If that were true, then they ought to get rid of the speed limit laws.

That should be beyond encouraged, not regulated into the ground.

I do not see it as a "safety net" to release later... But it is a nice resource buffer to satisfy a demand for species without having to take animals out of natural populations.

Lance

Guess what?

You can't even bring an atrox you legally caught and possessed in AZ back into AZ once it leaves the state.

I love AZ's non-commercial policy, even for c/b offspring. It helps keep the "hobby" a hobby instead of a poorly disguised business venture.