Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I had a good discussion on this topic with Jeff S., and I think we both brought up good points despite our opposing views. I wanted to see how everyone else weighed in on the subject. Please see our previous discussion from a few days ago from this thread, which was a response to a new milk owner's question about sand and substrate.

As I have mentioned, I am not breeding our snake, he is my wife & I's pet. We wanted to have him in an enclosure that was both pleasent to look at as an aquarium might be, as well as a safe, clean and comfortable environment for our snake to live in. I realize that this makes our needs very different from those who are breeding multiple snakes, and that their setups are going to be tailored to those particular requirements.

Paul
Our previous discussion

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L. annulata
Naturalistic vivarium with BSS

Here is a photo of our setup for those who did not see it.

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L. annulata
Naturalistic vivarium with BSS

I personally wouldn’t recommend a naturalistic setup and here is why there is nothing natural about human interaction with a snake or any animal for that matter, we feed the snake, we clean the snake’s cage, we provide shelter and heat for the snake, we give the snake tap water (how natural is that?) all in a unnatural way. Milksnakes are especially susceptible to moist, damp and unsanitary substrate in nature they are not confided by glass they can bask, hide and eat anywhere they like. I know I know you will clean the cage but what if you miss some of the poo or you go on vacation for a week and the snake spills its water? How do you water the plants? Do they require allot of water and how do you do it without disturbing the snake or worse yet making a watery mess? These can lead to serous issues, what happens if your snake ingests some of the substrate you are using, this has proven to be harmful and even fatal. Some breeders on these forums have been raising snakes all there lives 30 years and I am sure most prefer paper towels or newspaper with a simple setup, me I have owned snakes 20 years and have ALWAYS used one substrate (until recently trying eco earth) and that is newspaper. I still prefer newspaper no muss no fuss easy to clean, holds moisture well, no worries about feeding, transfers and holds heat well and is practically free. The main problem I have with natural setups is the fact that in a natural setup things can be fatal, you wouldn’t want to create ice in the cage just because you see it in there natural environment (extreme I know) but the point is the same you just don’t know what is harmful, perhaps the soil grows mold and causes respiratory problems, perhaps the plants had some bugs, or worse chemicals on it. Milksnakes especially are not a snake that likes to be seen they prefer to be hidden.

Just my thoughts.
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Jason A.
"Long time Herper, first year Breeder `07."

Jason,
You make some very good points and I do agree. In our case I did consider these things beforehand. The plants are desert varieties, which require very infrequent waterings. The substrate has a gravel base to which any excess water will go down to, out of the substrate. I do not feed the snake in this space - I have a portable acrylic talk that I put paper towels in.

Any poop not scooped up seems to be taken care of by the Bioactive Substrate System (BSS). Having 3 or 4 inches of substrate to dig in seems to give our snake lots of activity.

We are striving for a naturalistic, not natural setup. As you said, there is nothing natural about keeping a snake as a pet. But I am not keeping a hamster or mouse or lab rat, so I do not want to creat a lab-type setting. But we do our best to create the environment that will be conducive to the snake's health and well-being. It is all an illusion, but if I do my best to keep my snake healthy and well-cared for, then I am fulfilling my responsibilities as an owner.

Thanks for giving your opinion here. I hope all this information is useful to everyone, especially new snake owners. I hope more people respond and let us all know what they think.
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L. annulata
Naturalistic vivarium with BSS

I think it is a great idea. The author of that book about natural setups is quite respected in his field, as I remember. It is more work than I prefer to do at this point, however.

Way, way back in the late 1960s when I was in charge of a tank of snakes in high school, we had them setup with a glass aquarium/tank. In the bottom there was a few inches of dirt, then we had a big glass dish that was about 3 inches deep for water. We also had a branch in there for them to climb. I don't remember ever taking the dirt out, but do remember taking out the water dish to clean and refill it every few days. The snakes did great in there. It was actually astonishing to me (at this point in my reptile education) that they survived, because we would forcefeed them a 1/4 inch of raw ground beef (balled up) that we would shove down their throats after we had pried open their mouths. And these were small snakes, who were probably insect eaters in the wild. But they lived for at least 9 months in this setup. They might have lived longer than that, I never had one die in that school year.
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phflame
kingsnake.com host

Speaking from limited personal experience and not with a great deal of research, I also read a book by Philippe de Vosjoli, in this case I believe it was called "Art of Keeping Snakes" and as a physician it actually made sense to me.

The truth is that in nature the majority of bacteria ARE good. We live in a world covered with organisms that we do not see and the main reason that we are not ill all the time is that there is a balance of these organisms. Beneficial organisms clearly help keep us healthy, and it has been shown in studies that the "Lysol-ization" of America actually has detrimental effects on children and their immune systems, just as the over-use of antibiotics has led to both resistance in pathologic bacteria and problems because we wipe out the symbiotic, beneficial organisms that help keep our skin surfaces and GI tracts in good health. Basically, without beneficial organisms, we would all be dead, because there is no way to sterilize our human "cage setup" fully.

That said, I have not read every study that pertains to snake care so I am speaking more from a theoretical perspective.

I liked the idea of the Bioactive Substrate for a couple reasons. One, it looks better. Two, the limited science made sense to me. Three, if you do it right... set up the right substrate, remove excess stool, stir in the remnants and allow the "system" to process the rest, it seemed to allow for a better looking set up (an advantage for us pet-keepers rather than breeders) with a bit less maintenance, without (and this is an important point) apparent harm to the animal.

The last issue certainly is of primary importance and I am sure the main arguments against all of this would be by the many folks who have kept herps for 30 years who would say if newspaper, or simple substrate replaced weekly works, why change it.

I guess we will see.

There are LOTS of things we used to believe in medicine that have proven invalid over time. We have also learned that sometimes there are potentially many right ways to do something.

If this system, with increased use, clearly is harmful to reptiles and the potential problems play out then it is up to those of us using it to report those.

I see all sides. I appreciate and have little argument against the folks that would say I am taking an unnecessary risk with the health of my snakes. Again, I feel like I am following the advice of a trusted career herpetologist and / or snake keeper.

Personally we have been using this system for 2 years with a ball python and a couple of months with a Albino Nelsons milk and a Leucistic Texas Rat with no problems. We are diligent with water changes, diligent with waste removal, and diligent with substrate stirring as prescribed by the author. We have never had problems with molds or insects.

The set ups look great. Animals seem happy and healthy, and we enjoy them a lot.

Again, little of this is hard science and from my profession I don't typically trust something unless you can prove it to me, but I am, at this point, pleased with how things have worked.

Mike

Paul, you brought up mice,rat setups. What would you say if someone wanted to make up one for these? I dont know if it registers with you yet, but your snake IS NOT a wild snake any more than a lab rat is!! You wouldnt make up a "natural" setup for a rat would you? You are putting YOUR needs way too far in front of the snakes', and pretty much everyone has told you that. I suggest you take your snake out to a nice park, take some NICE NICE pictures, and put the picture on the front of the cage after you alter your setup. Best of both worlds--you get that nice picture you want, and the snake remains at OPTIMAL health. I dont know why you wouldnt want that.J

I have things I am an "expert" at, and being a snake keeper is not one of them. So, I come here for advice and discussion. Yet, in those things that I know a lot about I don't think it helps to shout someone down for bringing in new ideas and information. I don't think Paul is being obnoxious for asking for people's input, and perhaps for not taking an initial "no" for an answer. In this and many other forums there are often a few dominant players and their opinions rule and many are afraid to go to the hassle of disagreeing with them.

There really is this book out there called the "Art of Keeping Snakes" and a lot of the commercial sites on kingsnake sell it, and it talks a lot about the benefits of keeping snakes in a set up such as being discussed here. So apparently there are a lot of people that think that housing snakes in this type of set up has its advantages. I don't think one has to make smart-a$$ remarks about taping up photos in front of a aquarium. I found this thread because I went searching for "bioactive" in forums and wanted to see what others were doing.

So, I guess what I want to know is, if it is so bad, why are so many doing it, enough to warrant sales of this book? Apparently, this is a common herp set up in Europe. Are they all just jacked across the Atlantic, or are perhaps, there more than one good way to do things? I understand the POTENTIAL for trouble... but there is potential for trouble in everything I do in life and I learn to moderate that risk with certain behaviors.

As stated by all, nothing is natural about what is being done here with snakes. In any set up... so perhaps there is more than one right way to pull this off? The Williams book may be the Bible but is it the only way... and is it possible that there are other ways that are just as optimal... or close?

So, I don't think that it is wrong to think outside the box. Some of us coming to this forum are not breeders and we don't have 30 snakes to care for. So our goals may be a bit different than yours. I have lots of reasons for owning snakes, but truthfully, and I think I probably represent many here, I would be a lot less likely to keep them, if it meant having to look at the "traditional" snake enclosure all the time. My wife would also be a lot less likely to let me keep them. I don't even pretend that this is a natural set up. I just like the way a vivarium looks and feels with live plants and such. And when I got into snakes a couple years ago, I read this book and it made sense and it has actually worked for me. I understand the principle and the book outlines all the potential risks you bring up and tells how to limit those, so I think there really are ways to do this and have it work.

Maybe you think I am just lucky?

I think that it may just be that if I am cautious, control humidity and temps correctly, give plenty of hides, keep water clean, follow the stool removal and stirring substrate plan, etc... it just might work. I don't use any substrate that is insecticide treated...or small enough to be ingested (I use a mix of orchid bark, peat, clay pellets, and repti-bark with #3 aquarium gravel on top)...I am careful with the plants I choose and ensure no insects... etc. I have refined my substrate a bit over time because initially it held too much moisture. It seems to work and my snakes feed and poop and interact normally. They are all handled several times a week. Seems okay.

Now, you may say that my unwillingness to do it the "accepted" way means I shouldn't keep snakes. Fair enough. Yet, there would be three less kids at our house growing up in love with herps, fewer people buying everyones breeding projects, etc. So, if there is a good option, one actually accepted by apparently many snake keepers in Europe to use a Vivarium set up and bioactive substrate and it seems to work, is it then okay to say that what works for many, doesn't have to work for all?

Maybe you have evidence that this Philippe de Vosjoli guy is a total quack but I have yet to hear anyone say that.

I don't want to subject my reptiles to clear risk but I am not convinced that the "potential" risks should cause people to shy away from trying something different if there is some good evidence to believe that snakes do just as well.

I think that perhaps a better approach would be to say, okay, great... what you are interested in doing is different... this is why I don't do it that way, and then let the rest of us who are trying out something different figure out the best way to try and make it work.

Thanks...

no direct attacks or offense intended...

Mike

0.1 Normal Ball Python
1.0 Leucistic Texas Rat
0.1 Albino Nelson's Milk

You ask why there are people like you buying them? Simple, they make for PRETTY PICTURES. They interest many non-keepers into the hobby. And of the people who keep animals like this, there has to be a 99% turnover as soon as that first animal dies. These are not dogs, you cant EXPECT to be able to take it to a vet and "get it fixed". You have to do everything you can THE FIRST TIME to give it the proper environment. IF you are an EXPERT, and know your animal well, and know what to look for as far as disease goes, and if all the stars align properly....sure you can keep snakes like that....but dont pretend to be a newbie on one hand and then an expert(because you READ everything)on the other.
Those of us that have lived and breathed with these animals for years will continue to try and pursuade you to keep them ALIVE AND HEALTHY because only then will you be around in the hobby long enough to even mention introducing this to your kids. The people who will be in it for a long time(READ: THE NATURAL LIFETIME OF THE ANIMAL)are the ones I personally like dealing with. They are open to what works for ME, and they share what works for THEM. NEVER, NOT ONCE,has anyone I met kept snakes like you want to describe for longer than a few months. Take that for what its worth, it is nothing personal and I am not trying to scare you off.
Here is an analogy for you. YES, you can park anywhere in the mall parking lot. You want to park the furthest away because you can use the exercise.....but what about those in the car with you? Have some consideration for those(these)animals. They are not disposable.Jeff

Jeff,
I really get the impression that you think that all of us who are not doing things the way you do are doing it wrong, and that we are purposely neglecting our snakes health and wellbeing. Also, since we are not as experienced as others who have kept snakes for 20-plus years, that we do not know anything useful and are doomed to failure.

It is two differing points of view, and even though you do not seem to acknowledge it, both sides do have merit, and neither is the only way to do things.

You mentioned that you have not known anyone in the hobby for longer than a natural lifetime of a snake that kept a non-simplistic setup for more than a few months. What about those of us who are not "in the hobby", but just love snakes and chose to have one as a pet?

I don't think you have read the book that has been mentioned here (please correct me if I am wrong), but I think it would not have sold so well nor would it be referred to by other authors, websites, etc. if it was just hogwash. The author is an experienced herper, and has a good reputation in the herp community. If he really didn't know wwhat he was talking about, would he have any credibility? Or would it have lasted over time? Yes his book has pictures, but it is not a picture book. Its illustrations do not automatically discredit its value.

I am not trying to convince anyone that they should do things a certain way, but you seem adamant that no one should do things other than the way you think is best. If I am misunderstanding you, please forgive me. But your tone and demeanor sound a little "dictatorish" if you will. I was just trying to find out other opinions on the subject. It seems to be a sore subject for you, I certainly didn't mean for it to be.

I bet you are a really nice guy, and passionate about your snakes. However, no one likes being talked down to. Especially when it is not warranted. We can all disagree, but you sound angry about it. I hope this is not the case. We less-experienced herpers look to you more experienced folks for guidance and ideas, and sarcastic criticism and virtual shouting might make some hesitant to ask questions in the future.

But not all of us.
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L. annulata
Naturalistic vivarium with BSS

Now I want everyone to be comfortable here. If you reread my posts I am sure you will see that I am trying to teach you not berate you.
That said, did you come here to get advice or give it? I thought you wanted/solicited advice and many of us have given our opinions. I will put it to you that you havent gotten the answers you are looking for,hence the 3rd post. Now what are you telling me/us if you ask for my/our opinions and then ignore it/them? I know you are trying, thats why I am being so patient. But please look at the date of publication of what you are reading. Realize that the hobby has grown so hard and fast in the past 20 years because newbies have not just embraced old and established ways but have continued to refine them. While I know its true that you may not have much to offer as either a breeder or a experienced keeper your opinion matters to me. I think most will agree anything over 8-10 years old may as well be written in sandscript.
I will leave you with a question. I think it fair to say that keeping a milk properly in a "naturalistic" set up will take at least 2 hours/week PROPER upkeep. The same size setup done "our way" will take you less than 20 minutes. Now you say you have kids? There is over an hour and a half PER WEEK that you could spend educating your children. Is the time you are going to have to spend worth it?

Jeff, Paul and all-

This will be my last post on this topic. I think I may be wasting space on someones server at this point. I think perhaps this topic has been beaten around enough... though I wish there were a way to have an honest discussion amongst those of us who may still want to try it a different way, how we might tweak and do our way better.

All of your points are reasonable and I do appreciate your patience with us newbies. I hope that in my posts, I made it clear that I am NOT an expert in snake keeping. There are things I know a lot about and this is not it. That said, in two years I have learned a lot, read a lot, talked to a lot of folks, been to a lot of shows, etc. I wasn't trying to come in and play any expert role.

And just by persistently questioning what you are saying, the status quo, etc., doesn't mean I am attempting any disrespect. I just really have thought what I have been doing all along was a reasonable alternative and perhaps even a "better" way.

I came into this discussion this morning because I wanted to tweak my system a bit. Its been working well but I thought I might get some other ideas. I lurk on several kingsnake forums, but since the milk snake is rather new to us, haven't been on this one.

Long story short, I searched "bioactive" and was pleased to find this discussion but a bit surprised by the content.

I just worked with a guy in a herp only shop in Houston who does use live vivaria in his store and recommended I look at this book. He had been using this system for some time. I read it, liked what I read, set up my system and later bought a Ball Python from him. In the first two months, I changed my set up 3-4 times, due to too much moisture. In the roughly two years since, I have changed my substrate once. I mix in some new mix every once in a while and top off with a bit more gravel to keep the surface more dry and that is it. I have gotten it to a point where it dries consistently in about a week to 10 days and I add a bit of water. It is never soggy, never moldy, etc. I am about to change it again, just because I think doing that at least once a year makes sense.

Maintenance is about a half hour a week for the BP set up and about 1/2 hour a week combined for the two smaller rat and milk snake set ups. Weekly maintenance includes wiping cage sides, adding water for plants, thoroughly stirring substrate, thoroughly searching for stool/urates, formal check of temp levels at different spots with the heat gun, pulling any dead leaves off plants. Daily stuff is just water changes, a quick check for stool, perhaps an occasional stirring of the mix for aeration. Thats it. Maybe this is not "proper" but its just the way I learned things, and so far, its worked. I do feed in their cages and haven't had a problem. BP is in a 36 inch Showcase cage and two baby rat and milks are in Exo Terra Terrariums.

My 9 year old son does all the work with me, and the 6 and 5 year old girls usually help too, often holding snakes while the work is done. So I am not wasting time away from the kids. Its pretty straightforward.

Not as quick as tossing out newspaper or aspen shavings, but to me the pay off is good.

And... I actually have used it to teach the kids about balance of nature, beneficial bacteria, and other geeky science stuff.

Where we live I am in a bit of a herp black hole so we've been doing it a bit on our own, but so far (at least I thought) with some decent success.

I am considering the health of the snakes and oddly enough... was sold on this system because according to the book, it was considered "better" for snakes than the traditional set up you recommend. Again, no shots there, just going by the book.

So... I may just be naive, but I came into this discussion actually believing what I was doing was a well-known and fairly accepted alternative. I had heard the arguments against, but since my set up controls for those by not allowing a wet, soggy, stool infested, insect ridden...etc. set up, I thought I was okay.

Again, all respect to you for your advice and I am not giving it... I jumped in primarily from the philosophical perspective of thinking that new and different aren't always bad.

Most of your points, and I really appreciate this perspective, have been in defense of our poor pets that we are apparently subjecting to this horrible set up. I again would say, that up until this point, I thought what I was doing was "better" and that more people would do it if they had the time, etc.

So... I have got some work to do in rethinking things but with ALL DUE RESPECT, with a couple years under our belt with the BP and 3 months with the others and no apparent problems (all gaining weight, normal stools, feeding well, BP had recent annual vet check and was great) I am hesitant to change.

I think its an interesting discussion and I am not trying to convince anyone to do it the way I have. But I do believe in beneficial bacteria and think that its worth further research.

Thanks,

Mike

Jeff and everyone,
I didn't mean to cause a commotion, I am just interested in how others are keeping their snakes, and seeing if there are things that I should know about, or if others are in similar situations with setups, etc. I wasn't looking to find one certain opinion or anything, but I didn't expect such a reaction to a question on what I thought was a relatively tame subject.

I am good with agreeing to disagree on things, and I hope to continue to learn from the vast knowledge base we have here in everyone. This forum is a great resource and I feel like I have disturbed the peace in some way. I'm sorry if I did, I certainly did not mean to.

Paul
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L. annulata
Naturalistic vivarium with BSS

There is plenty of room here for different philosophies on keeping snakes. You did NOT disturb the peace by your posts and responses. It is healthy to consider other options. Thank you very much for contributing (and starting) this very interesting discussion.
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phflame
kingsnake.com host

Jeff,

Mike beat me to the reply, but he pretty much said what I was going to say.

I am trying to keep a "naturalistic" setup, not a natural one. As you have correctly pointed out in our first discussion, there is nothing natural about what we are doing.

If I am only keeping one snake, and willing to spend the time and energy to make sure his living space is clean, functional and sanitary, what is wrong with wanting it to look nice and have some natural touches such as live plants?

I totally agree with your view on the simplistic setup being the way to go when one has several snakes and/or is breeding them, but for only one snake, who is our loved pet, it does not make sense to us.

I can tell that you do not agree with the views of Philippe de Vosjoli, and you probably do not like his book (The Art of Keping Snakes). That is ok, but his ideas are obviously embraced by many people, so I believe there is merit to his methods.

Our snake is healthy, he is growing, and I pretend that he is happy as well. Part of that, I believe, is having the home he has.

Thanks to Mike, who described things really well. It clearly expressed the things I was thinking and trying to say.
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L. annulata
Naturalistic vivarium with BSS

The latest issue of Reptile Magazine has an article in it about a living terrarium (rain forests) very interesting read. But extremely expensive, the lights alone would cost around $3,000 I know this because I love saltwater aquariums and slowly saving for a reef/live rock system. Anyway I wouldn’t be surprised if that setup costs $15,000 or more even at that price in my opinion it still didn’t have the full cycle of a true natural eco system. True is was pleasant to look at and imitated nature very well, however it was still intended to be nice looking for us not for the creatures inside. Will creatures in that cage live a healthier longer life? I honestly don’t know but some of the creatures inside seemed like they could be food items for other animals, how easy is it to maintain and clean? How easy is it for the animals to find food? The lights are needed for some plants and maybe the chameleons but how does it effect the green vine (I believe it was a green vine snake) snake? It has been reported sun light causes cataract and blindness in snakes one of the reasons true sun light is not needed.

Right now in my opinion the best possible enclosure we can offer our snakes is one that best mimics what they need in the wild. What do milksnakes like to do in the wild? Well they are fairly nocturnal so you only need a day/night cycle (no fancy lighting systems and don’t keep them near a window, this can be fatal.) and two hideboxes should suffice, one on the cooler end and one on the warmer end and with that they need a heat gradient one side warmer and the other side cooler, the best would be a UTH (flex watt for example) using in my opinion a helix proportional thermostat, or some type of proportional thermostat as it mimics the suns heat better. Fresh water always offer, something they can soak in but not filled to the brim just enough so if your snake is soaking it covers about half there body, this prevents water from overflowing and possible snake from drowning. Substrate I like newspaper its not pretty to look at but it servers me and the snake well, sometimes I will shred it but most of the time a single folded sheet is all I need, it holds heat well, and holds moisture/poo well and is easy to clean, NO risk of your snake possibly ingesting the substrate, which can be fatal and is easy to spot messes in. Milksnakes like to burrow in the wild, why? Is it to escape the suns heat? Because they don’t want to become a meal? Or because its part of there daily activities to find prey? Personally I don’t mimic this because I don’t believe its needed to keep the snake healthy that is why I offer a hidebox, and folded newspaper. And of course food I prefer F/T. They don’t need plants this offers nothing for them other then giving you the human something green to look at. So why is it some try to provide a man made living terrarium for the benefit of the snake or us? A terrarium that mostly contains pretty things for us to look at and is NO benefit to the snake inside.

Again just my thoughts and something I have been doing for 20 years, and my oldest snake a Red Tail Boa is 15-plus years old!
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Jason A.
"Long time Herper, first year Breeder `07."