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Another fact about the true-blue brooks

Bluerosy Jul 18, 2007 06:27 PM

Unless you were "in the ring" of searching, keeping or breeding high yelloiw "brooksi" you might not know this so wort mentioning..you can find ugly looking Florida kings right under the same board as nice high yellow brooks. I thought I should mention this and explain a little on the history of breeding high yellow "Brooks" kings that originated from places like s.Dade county, the Canals ect.

Breeders back then only sold nice high yellow brooks kings from s. florida. You could not get a dime for any "Florida " looking specimens whether they came from s. florida or not. Most breedrs that sold brooksi back then had the pictures of the adults at their table proving how their dark looking babies will turn out. It was a very competitive market for high yellow brooks and back then, the proof was in the pudding .

It was from these captive bred high yellows that people like the Loves, Doug Beard and other had held back the best of the best that the reccessive traits came from. They came from sibling to sibling breedings and NOT wildcaught unreleated stock.

So the Peanut Butters, original hypos and axanthics all came from these hand selected and bred for high yellow stock animals. They were usually the best of the best becaue these EXPERIENCED breeders held back the ones they thought would make for better yellow brooks for the future market.

What we have now in these three phenotypes; Peanut Butter, Hypomelanistic and axanthic)are hand picked and best bred high yellow brooksi that was all the rage back then. Knowbody really bred the dark florida morphs. At least not the breeders that these snakes originated from. These breeders were also Florida natives themselves so they knew what makes a nice yellow brooksi and knew either where to get the original stock from or collected them themselves...

For instance on the Peanut Butters. A friend of mine bought a pair of nice high yellow siblings from Kathy Love for a friend of his back in Calif. This Calif friend of his asked him to pick out some nice high yellow brooks to send to him back home. So my friend picks out a pair from kathy Loves table which she said would turn out nice and sent them to his friend in Calif. This Calif resident raised them up and produced the first Peanut butteres. Since he did not know what to do with them he graciously sent the snakes back to my friend iwho lived in Florida for further inspection. When my friend received them he realized theese were not just hypos but something different (at that time the first hypos just appeared on the market and were $700. each). So my friend went back to the Loves and told them of this new morph he had. They said the Hypos were poppoing up all over the country from their "unkown" hets they unknowingly sold as normals. So the Loves assumed they were hypos sight unseen and wrote them off as that what they thought he had. So my friend went back to the Loves table the following year because they assign a numbered code to each baby they sell telling who the father and mother is. each of their snakes (yes they keep incredible records!) and as it turned out he found the correlating numbers on that years table and promptly snatched them all up. Those were the base animals that started the Peanut butter line and that is why they did not pop up in other people collections like the hypos and axanthics did.

ANyway, my point is.. yes you will see ugly brooksi in the s. Florida range. But these 3 morphs all originated from highly selectively bred brooksi that were unbeknownst morph carriers to the breeders selling them.

Now on the other hand the BHB anerythristic, Lavenders and the T negatives all came from dark ugly North Florida stock and not south florida brooksi.

So this is why these triple het morph baies I produced are so special to me. SOoo do ya get it yet Zenny? LOL! Just kidding!
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"Yeah ya told me, and ya wrote it down too. But how the hell am I supposed to remember!"

Replies (20)

CrimsonKing Jul 18, 2007 06:53 PM

Why do you keep referring to those kings as NORTH Florida kings? (when referring to those ugly kings)
Most are/were from just NORTH of the "Brooksi" you are describing and indeed from the very same counties at times.
More correctly, I think, would be central FL. From around Lake Okeechobee to Tampa. Certainly there were some from as far north as Jacksonville, but the majority were from either the canefields or south of Ocala I'd say.
Of course even with all that said, and as you've pointed out, there is/was a great variety in the looks from ANY given spot.
I used to refer to the canefield kings as Okeechobee kings and liked the ones with many bands.
Thanks for the enlightening posts.
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com

Bluerosy Jul 18, 2007 06:58 PM

Sorry didn't mean to down any snake. I was just trying to make a point that the morphs of the Peanut butter, hypo and axanthics came from selectivly bred high yellow s. florida kings. I Used the "ugly" refference to make it easier for people to understand that all s. florida kings do not look like the high yellow screamers breeders had sold on their tables 10 years ago. It was just a refference for some who are as in the loop with florida kings. Most havn't a clue what went on a few years ago because they were not around so they don't undertand how things evolved. I also wanted to nip in the butt before anyone said "hey not all s. florida kings look like that" .
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"Yeah ya told me, and ya wrote it down too. But how the hell am I supposed to remember!"

CrimsonKing Jul 18, 2007 07:00 PM

Rainer, I don't care about the snake here, I'm just talking about you saying NORTH FL when they weren't from NORTH FL.
That's all.
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com

Bluerosy Jul 18, 2007 07:15 PM

Okay I meant anything north of the s. floridas. Not the top half of florida or even middle florida.

The thing is also the darker floridas come from all over and to differentiate one dark one from the other is not a matter of loacle but that they all look like that .

How much drift do you belive there is coming from the eastern kings to the north into the south? Do you think it effects band count?
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"Yeah ya told me, and ya wrote it down too. But how the hell am I supposed to remember!"

daveb Jul 18, 2007 08:38 PM

>>
>>How much drift do you belive there is coming from the eastern kings to the north into the south? Do you think it effects band count?

that's a good question, but i guess you would have to determine and evaluate how much variation there is within each subspecies before you could say that one has a measurable effect on the other where the populations intergrade.
if i had to say right on the spot, my opinion would be that intergradation does not have an effect on band count.

foxturtle Jul 18, 2007 11:13 PM

I don't think genetic influence from eastern kings has much effect on Florida king populations that aren't already considered to be intergrades. The highest bandcounts recorded from Florida kings were actually from more than 100 miles north of the brooksi range, in the Kissimmee Prairie region north of Lake Okeechobee. According to K.Krysko, the intergrade zone starts in Pinellas County on the west coast of FL, and Volusia County on the east coast.

Here are some animals I've found in the intergrade zone that show some obvious eastern king influence:

And here are some pure adult Florida kings I've found that show a similar range of variation in color, but much higher bandcounts:

Bluerosy Jul 18, 2007 11:34 PM

Those are some very nice pics. You should periodically post those so people can see them. Not many people have an expose' of w/c kings like that. Impressive finds and pics.
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"Yeah ya told me, and ya wrote it down too. But how the hell am I supposed to remember!"

CrimsonKing Jul 18, 2007 07:11 PM

Two slightly different looks. One is the result of a few years of selective breeding, the other is from breeding the same lines w/no different "strains" plugged in.

:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com

Bluerosy Jul 18, 2007 07:25 PM

Well its hard to tell until they are adults but the second one look pretty cool right now.

Look at this cool normal. Its not trick photography. It really had that grey silver look with the white eyes. Unfortunaly i sold it right after this pic for $35. at a reptile show in Birmingham AL. SO I never knew how it turned out.
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"Yeah ya told me, and ya wrote it down too. But how the hell am I supposed to remember!"

Bluerosy Jul 18, 2007 07:26 PM


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"Yeah ya told me, and ya wrote it down too. But how the hell am I supposed to remember!"

Bluerosy Jul 18, 2007 07:28 PM

I would say both are not from the known brooks locales.
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"Yeah ya told me, and ya wrote it down too. But how the hell am I supposed to remember!"

CrimsonKing Jul 18, 2007 07:30 PM

Top one is true blue.
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

Bluerosy Jul 18, 2007 07:35 PM

Think of "true blue" this way. Its a time capsule of genes persereved (and hidden) from when breeders where trying to accomplish a completly different goal and that was to reproduce the highest yellow traits from that s. florida area. This is neat stuff.

Maybe I should have been more clear on this instead of writing so much. I just thought it needed further explanation.
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"Yeah ya told me, and ya wrote it down too. But how the hell am I supposed to remember!"

Nokturnel Tom Jul 18, 2007 08:11 PM

One thing we don't often hear on this forum with Brooksi is "can we see a belly shot". Bill Love told me that real Brooksi have less than 50% of their bellies patterned. He also said high yellow had nothing to do with it.....many were very pale.
These days most of us just call colorful Florida Kings Brooksi....... nice snakes Mark
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

Bluerosy Jul 18, 2007 08:18 PM

One way to tell the Love line hypos from the Beard line a[art is the Love hypos had NO pattern at all ON THE BELLY. The Beard line did have some 25-50% pattern .

..of course today you won't see many Love line hypos with no pattern because they have been outcrossed. Maybe someone here has a pure Love line with plain yellow belly they can show us a pic of?
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"Yeah ya told me, and ya wrote it down too. But how the hell am I supposed to remember!"

CrimsonKing Jul 18, 2007 08:24 PM

We used the "no pattern" belly as a marker for the best hypos and select them over most others.
I can't remember ANY s.FL kings as being "bright yellow" at all. As I've said before, most were very pale and I really did not like them when I was a kid.
Don't give my posts here too much weight though since I haven't dealt with hundreds of the s. FL wild ones..like others have.
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

ZFelicien Jul 18, 2007 08:44 PM

I saw Patternless to almost patternless bellies with my flames this season... the sibling to my adult male had a completely patternless belly, my male has a semi-patternless belly... After all these years of cross breeding, out breeding, in breeding, I just wonder why are we trying to get "old kings" back? I very much like the VAS diversity in a clutch... I love all the different appearances!

MY 2x het hybino Adults are from two different stocks and I gotta say the poss hets they produced all look very different... no two look alike... (think bands... thick bands... high band count... low band count... one reminds me of a white phase!) I like that!

pic sucks... but one of the patternless belly flames.

~Z
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Royal ReptileZ

daveb Jul 18, 2007 10:52 PM

>>One thing we don't often hear on this forum with Brooksi is "can we see a belly shot". Bill Love told me that real Brooksi have less than 50% of their bellies patterned.

Good point. I remember, all the kings I got from Bill/Kathy had very reduced or patternless bellies- that would be their normal and hypo lines.
I wish they were still working with brooksi.
daveb

daveb Jul 18, 2007 08:56 PM

just a pic of my (former) south fla male, i got him in '97 from dick deuel. what a phenomenal snake he was. i sold him, that is what is pi$$ing me off right at this moment in this post...

daveb

ChristopherD Jul 19, 2007 06:22 AM

hes pretty ,hes got that creamy Peter Pan look to him

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