Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I've kept reptiles since I was about 10 years old (20 years now) but my first dragon didn't make it. I'm almost positive that something was wrong with him from the start. Anyway, I am now the proud owner of a new beardie. He should be here first thing in the morning (actually in just a few hours) and I'm STOKED! I couldn't wait to post my own pics so I thought I'd share the one that the breeder sent. Here he is:

I really hope this one goes better than the first which never really ate enough. The only thing I can think of that I may do differently is add a little more light. I already had a 90 watt halogen flood and a 10.0 reptisun, but I may add one more bulb just for extra brightness.

I'll probably be adding pics tomorrow.

--scott
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0.9.0 Ball Pythons
0.1.1 Leopard Geckos
0.0.1 Egyptian Tortoise
0.0.1 Bearded Dragons

I'd consider changing that flood to a spot. Spot lights give hot basking temps. without making the ambient on the hot side too hot. Especially if you are using a small enclosure. A 20 long generally needs only a 75W spot to get a 110 basking spot and a 90 degree hot side ambient.

>>I'd consider changing that flood to a spot. Spot lights give hot basking temps. without making the ambient on the hot side too hot. Especially if you are using a small enclosure. A 20 long generally needs only a 75W spot to get a 110 basking spot and a 90 degree hot side ambient.

I'm not sure if a spot would work. I'm using a 29gal tank for now. With my current setup I have a basking spot of about 115 and the ambient temp on the cool side is 81 degrees. That's ok, right? Let me know what you think.

And, he got here this morning! I can already tell that there was definitely something wrong with the first one I had. It never acted as healthy as this one does. He's much more active and alert and he promptly downed about a dozen crickets.
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0.9.0 Ball Pythons
0.1.1 Leopard Geckos
0.0.1 Egyptian Tortoise
0.0.1 Bearded Dragons

81 is fine for the cool side but 75 would be OK too. If you get the hot side right the cool side should be fine.

I am more concerned that a flood light is causing the ambient (air temp.) to be too high. The ambient should be low 90's. The only thing you want 115 is the "spot" that she lays on. It's kinda like laying on the road when it's 90 out. The air is 90 but the temp of the road is hotter because of the sun and its reflection and absorbtion by the road.

The ambient temp on the cool side is right around 80 degrees. I haven't checked the ambient on the hot side, but the surface temp is about 115. Maybe it's because we keep our house pretty cool, I don't know, but the halogen flood really seems to do fine. I definitely don't think the tank is too hot. And so far the little guy is doing great. He's SO much more active than the one that died. Having never owned a bearded dragon, I didn't really have much to relate him to. I've had a lot of lizards including iguanas and most of them were fairly inactive. This one seems to have settled in great. I put him in his tank and about an hour later I offered him some crickets. He ate about 10 or 12 in the first feeding and then more later. He even nipped at my thermometer probe when I was re-checking all the temps. I love him.

Thanks for the help.

--scott
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0.9.0 Ball Pythons
0.1.1 Leopard Geckos
0.0.1 Egyptian Tortoise
0.0.1 Bearded Dragons

I've just never used a flood in any of my enclosures or terrariums. Even the sun glow spots spread the light out so that to get the basking spot temp right the background temp always turns out too hot. 90w halogen also seems like a lot to me for a 29 gallon. But if you're checking with a digital thermometer then I guess it's OK.

Hmmmm, well I don't know what the reason is, but I am checking with a digital thermometer and it seems fine. The beardie acts like it's ok too. He's goes to and from his basking spot so I don't think the rest of the tank is too hot. Maybe some brands of bulb don't put out as much heat?
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0.9.0 Ball Pythons
0.1.1 Leopard Geckos
0.0.1 Egyptian Tortoise
0.0.1 Bearded Dragons

Actually wattage is wattage. Heat is the byproduct of light. The difference is really only the lens. All this is unimportant anyway if the temps. measure out correctly.

One thing I have noticed, at least up in Canada..that regular light bulbs are getting more efficient..that is, they produce more light energy than heat energy...so it may be necessary to go for higher watt bulbs than it has in the past. But then again, except for small tanks, I use flood lights. My adult bearded dragon cages are quite large, 5'x2'x2 so the cool end is far enough away it stays at about room temperature (which currently, is about 75F-80F unless I have the AC on, then it stays closer to 75F).

So, I find it difficult to recommend a type and wattage of bulb, as there are just too many unknown factors involved. Type of cage, ambient temperatures, daily temperature fluctuations per household, type of bulbs used, even brands of bulbs. Hence I recommend go by temperature readings. Raise, lower basking lights, trying different wattages and types of bulbs, till the basking temps are in an ideal range (100-115F for babies up to a year old and 95-105F for adults, though having access to higher for adults is ok as well, as they will bask in higher temps at certain times during the day for a quick warm up). Plus checking ambient and cool end temperatures.

Having an open top to the cage makes a huge difference on cage and basking temperatures. I had to use a rather high wattage bulb for my baby tank because it was opened topped (I didn't have any way to close it off, not without having the light inside the cage and that would put the hot bulb too close to the dragon...it wasn't a very high cage and only was temporary till the adult cage was built. I had planned to use another cage at the time, but the current occupant, who was to have gone to a new home, never went, so I couldn't use that cage but by then I already was getting the dragon so had to improvise.
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PHLdyPayne

Here's a good reference. Zoo Med now sells a halogen basking spot lamp. And yes it is more efficient than non-halogen but if you read the package it says that it puts out 15% more light AND heat than standard incandescent spot bulbs. Just for laughs I tried and tested this bulb and there are better out there.

LdyPayne you sidestepped the ambient air temp. issue on the hot side which is the crux of this thread. Are you measuring and regulating it? I have 5 x 2 terrariums that I use household bulbs and spots to get the right temps. so your flood may work well. I'm glad terrariums are only nest boxes for me now as open top enclosures are very inefficient.

My concern was that in a 20 or 29 Gal. which is only 12" wide a flood may overheat the hot side. Seems impossible to me to have a 110" basking spot and only 6" away to have an ambient of less than 95 with a flood bulb.

Oh and even in my biggest enclosures I use (2) 50 watt Halogen (Phillips from Home Depot) spot lights. The enclosures are 5' x 3 1/2' x 2' tall. If I used floods the basking spots (2) would never be 105 when the ambient on the hot side (controlled bt thermostat) is 91.

Its not so much the flood bulb but the watt of the flood bulb. I use 50 watt flood bulbs in most enclosures. In a 40 breeder I use one 50 watt halogen flood bulb to get a 140 basking spot. A 90 watt must be over kill. Even in 20 longs I can use one 50 watt halogen flood bulb and get a 130 basking spot and good ambient temps.

As far as the screen tops go, I totally agree that they're no good. I put aluminum foil on my screen tops, cut around the lights, and leave a hole in the corners of the cool side. This keeps the heat and humidity in and helps keep my beardies hydrated.

Tim

Man, you guys are scaring me a little. I WAS sure that my temps were not too high. I was actually more worried about keeping the cool side warm enough. The beardie stays on the hot side most of the time. Wouldn't that indicate it's not too hot in there? Unless something is wrong with my thermometer (digital with a probe) then I'm getting much different temps from my lights than you guys are. The hottest spot, which is on top of a tall rock, is about 120 degrees. Directly beneath it on the floor, it's about 110. Twenty inches away on the other end of the tank, my thermometer reads 79-81. Why? I actually have the screen top mostly covered to keep it that warm. Do you guys have air conditioners? The room stays around 72 degrees. I'm confused.

--scott
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0.9.0 Ball Pythons
0.1.1 Leopard Geckos
0.0.1 Egyptian Tortoise
0.0.1 Bearded Dragons

Ambient on the hot side for a baby should be say 90-95. I would measure this by hanging the probe near the glass away from the direct light. You are trying to duplicate their natural environment and they don't live in the sahara so 110 ambient is too hot. I regulate the ambient on the hot side to 91(mine are adults now though). I decided on this based on a lot of observation. My basking spots are 105 - maybe 112 depending on time of day etc.

Don't worry about the cool side. Ideally I'd like to have mine be 75 but I only A/C to 75 so I never get lower than 81. If the ambient on the hot side is low nineties then I don't figure in a 40 you should be able to get lower than 80 either. But if it's 75 that's fine.

Hi
youre rack is nice.
i see you made the not vertical .
so they not have reflection on front,very clever .
i wanan make a new space in my shed in couple of years and am now thinking what would be the best to make .
i have 5,50 meterlong and 2meter 20 to the roof for space.
i think i wil make then deep to the cage say 100,80 centimers .
the top is that ventilation ? i see above the windows?
and where do youre heat go to ?
byeeeee
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www.dragoncave.nl

Although mine are not exactly the same design, the idea for the angled front came from the Dachiu's. Rob mentioned when I was there that he changed his to keep the dragons from climbing the glass. And it does work well for this and I think it looks nicer too. The angle of mine is 15 degrees.

Yes, above the glass is a 1 1/2" opening for ventilation. During the summer months I add the shelving grid for extra ventilation. Each cage temps. are controlled by individual Helix Thermostats as the higher cages get hotter with the heat from the cage below.

The cages on the left are 5' (150 cm) by 3 1/2' (105 cm) and the others are only 4' (120 cm) long. The basking spots (tile) are identical on both cages and are above 4 warm side hides. Each cage has (2) 3' Zoo Med Reptisun 10.0 UVB lights and (2) 50W Phillips Halogena Spot bulbs that give 2 hot spots that reach 110 at times while still maintaining a 91 degree ambient.

The Dachiu's cages are 4'(120 cm) wide by 3' (90 cm) deep. They have their hot side in the back of the tank and their cool side at the front. This makes sense to me but I like to be able to see my dragons. and with the orientation I have I can see them from my family room when they are on the basking area.

I don't understand the question of "where do youre heat go to" Maybe I answered it?

Hi
you have entree of ventilation and you have a outside of ventilation .
where is youre outside?
thats what i mean with mine question
byeeeee
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www.dragoncave.nl

There really is no entrance and exit without the grids in the doors. Overall my intent is to conserve heat. The opening above the doors is hopefully the only ventilation necessary during the cooler months. Each cage uses 160 Watts ( 2 50W spot & 2 36" UVB) during the daytime. My hope was that this would be enough in the winter when the house is much cooler. The more ventilation I put in, the more heat that is lost so it's really a balancing act.

The 5' cages work very well with the grid on the cool side. The 4' cages are more challenging. The (2) 50 Watt bulbs heat up this cage rapidly raising the ambient above the 91 the thermostat is set to causing it to reduce the output of the bulbs and that reduces the basking spot temps. The hot side ventilation helps this but is not ideal in my eyes. I really need something like a 35 Watt spot bulb.

hi
dim a 50 watt with a plug in dimmer to 35 watt.
thx for information .
byeeeeeee
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www.dragoncave.nl

Unfortunately it's much more complicated than that. The lights are dimmed by the thermostats as the ambient temperature rises. But if the lights are dimmed to much then the 105 basking spot is lost.

It actually works well in the 4' tanks with only one basking spot and a 50 watt on one side and a 25 watt regular bulb in the other so (2) 35 watt bulbs should work I'm hoping. Just ordered 3 different 35 watt spot bulbs online that I will test out.

I believe that the main reason for our temperature differnces is the materials of our enclosures. Your melamine is a much much better insulator than the glass tank that my little guy is in right now. I think it's the heat-transferring glass coupled with my very cool living room that's keeping my temps so low with the 90watt bulb. That's about all I can come up with that makes sense.

Anyway, thanks for all the help.

--scott
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0.9.0 Ball Pythons
0.1.1 Leopard Geckos
0.0.1 Egyptian Tortoise
0.0.1 Bearded Dragons

Yea like I said you have to measure. If the temps work out for you thats all that matter. But just so you know I own, (4) 20 Long terrariums, (3) 30 Breeder terrariums, (2) 40 Breeder terrariums, (2) 4' x 1' terrariums and (1) 5' x 1' terrarium and all of them have or have had dragons in them so I am very familiar with glass terrariums. I only started using melamine in April of this year.

Yeah, I'm keeping a close eye on it. I decided today that the new beardie needed a little more privacy until he gets settled in good, so I covered two sides of the tank with a towel. The other two sides just have a background paper on it. As soon as I put the towel around it, the temps shot way up. I had to open up most of the top to get them back into acceptable range.

Anyway, just thought I'd add it to our ongoing discussion.
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0.9.0 Ball Pythons
0.1.1 Leopard Geckos
0.0.1 Egyptian Tortoise
0.0.1 Bearded Dragons

hi
a plug in dimmer is very nice .
plug it in youre power of the hotspot and dim it to the temp you want .
byeeee
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www.dragoncave.nl

That is a great looking new beardie you got, Congratulations!

Be sure to post some more pics!

Thanks. I love him. He's a very cool little guy, darting around attacking crickets and stuff. I got him from bloodbankdragons. I'm not sure what "morph" he's called, but I know he's heterozygous for "translucent". I don't know anything about bloodbankdragons, but I'm thrilled with the beardie.

--scott
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0.9.0 Ball Pythons
0.1.1 Leopard Geckos
0.0.1 Egyptian Tortoise
0.0.1 Bearded Dragons