Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Does anyone know where I can get live adult mice that I can breed to produce babies for my adult female bearded dragons?
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Darien Drollinger
www.djsdragonranch.com

A local pet store would be your best bet.

Take care!
HH
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

not worth the hassle to breed your own mice to feed your bearded dragons. They don't need pinky mice in their diet on a regular basis. A few a year as treats is fine or to give to breeding females after each clutch (not a huge amount, maybe one a day for a couple days then thats it till after the next clutch).

Pinky mice are high in fat, and feeding them too often can lead to obesity in bearded dragons, which in turn can cause fatty liver disease and shortened life.

In the long run, if you do want to feed pinky mice once in awhile..it would be better to just order them frozen. Most dragons will eat thawed pinky mice as easily as live and you save yourself the hassle of carrying for mice that will most likely breed much faster than you can feed off the babies. Unless you plan on keeping the male separate all the time.

A single female mouse can have a litter anywhere between 8-12 babies. They can produce a litter once a month if kept with a male constantly. They can become pregnant again within 24 hours after giving birth and they can nurse a litter and carry a new litter inside at the same time. Thus, even a single pair of mice always housed together, can produce 8-10 babies a month and the first litter will be old enough and producing their own babies by the end of the second month.

So, unless you have at least 4 adult bearded dragons, which you can feed 2 pinky mice per month, which isn't good for them, there is no point to breeding your own mice. Unless you also own snakes and want to breed mice for them as well.

Also, male mice stink. They will quickly stink up the room your mice are being kept in. No amount of cleaning will change this. Male mice have a very musky scent to their urine and they like their homes to reek of it. It tells him he is in his territory and makes him feel secure. So the first thing he's going to do when you clean his cage, is urinate all over the place to make it 'home' again. So you may get a day of fresh air before it stinks again, depending on the size of his cage and the size of the room he is housed in. As well as air flow.

To me, it will be much simpler to just buy a couple frozen pinkies at your pet store to give as a treat to your dragons. It should become a staple of their diet. Dragons will eat rodent babies in the wild, if they encounter them, but I really do not think it is something they come across on a regular basis.
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PHLdyPayne

Well I have 4 male breeders and 8 female breeders so I figured if I get 10 mice a month I can feed them all off. Also I was wondering if it is worth it to just buy hornworms? Are they as fatty as mice so I can just feed the females thm to fatten them up?
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Darien Drollinger
www.djsdragonranch.com

for straight fat content, hornworms have more fat than a pinky mouse. But horn worms are also very high in calcium.
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PHLdyPayne

Huh? What? Hornworms are not high in fat. Where are you getting that? Hornworms are low in fat and high in calcium.

that is what I thought too..but the only chart I could find that gave fat content for hornworms..indicated 22% fat.. I have searched online for other sources to verify, as I thought that was rather high..and I haven't been able to find anything. Even checked various books I have here, and none list nutrition for horn worms. Everything else, but not horn worms.

So I am confused too...
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PHLdyPayne

Where's the chart that says 22%? Greatlakeshornworms.com says low in fat but just in words. Can't imagine how they could be high in fat since their much like silkworms and can even eat the same food.

OOPS I lie. Greatslakeshornworms.com 's site says

"They are also low in fat, 3.07%"

Hmm, I don't think they will be as low as 3% as that would make them the lowest fat insect out there. Then again, after checking the charts I can find, butterworms are pretty low in fact too..at about 6%. The great lakes hornworm website (you have it wrong actually, but I did find it anyway..it is www.greaklakeshornworm.com you had it hornworms.com but a small typo). They don't really indicate where they found their information..but this is something that perked my interest and I want to verify just what nutritional content horn worms have.

The chart I saw was in an old article on feeder insects in one of my reptile associations news letters. I don't have it on a computer right now, just paper..Unfortunately the references the author used are all books...

It could be a typo in the article after all but I can get in contact with the writer of that article and have her check her sources. At least I am assuming she owns all the books she checked for the article.

Once I hear back from her, I will post it on the list, so everybody who has been following this thread will know.
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PHLdyPayne

Hers may have been wild insects also. As there are tomato hornworms and tobacco hornworms. Both are poisionous to reptiles. The prepared food may make a big difference in the fat content.

Oh yes, I did consider that possibility, that her nutrition may reflect wild horn worms, instead of 'farmed' horn worms fed a special diet. I did send her an email and waiting for her reply. Not sure if she is in town or off on vacation, so it may take awhile for me to get a response.

Horn worms are cool bugs....next time I buy a batch, I am going to try and breed them....the moth forum (Sphinx moth of some sort, if I recall correctly) should be cool...they kind of remind me of the 'deaths head moth' from 'Silence of the Lambs'...though only in body shape, the patterning completely different..may be related... but being bigger moths..and maybe not even flightless as silkworm moths are...these may be more of a challenge to care for...but heck, worth a shot.
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PHLdyPayne

I know they're not flightless. As I remember they were Hawk moths???

Checked it out and according to greatlakeshornworm.com (great supplier by the way)

"Tomato hornworms are larvae of the Sphinx or Hawkmoth"

So we're both right. lol.

yeah, it has a few names for the moth stage. I think there is another besides sphinx and hawk..but I can't remember it. Not important.

Silkworms have been domesticated for a very long time, even before they were used as feeders, they were bred to use the silk from their cocoons (hence why they are called silkworms) so it may be all those centuries which resulted in silkworm moth form having poorly developed or ineffective wings. Whats interesting is the silkworm moths look almost exactly like tent caterpillars moths...the same tan color, nearly same size...never had two side by side to compare..but if I didn't know it came from a silkworm, I would have thought the moth was a moth of a tent caterpillar or army worm as they are called sometimes.

When I get more horn worms (probably won't be till September, maybe October..unless I order some, as I don't have money to go to the show happening near me tomorrow...no point driving a couple hours, if I can't afford the gas, much less the cost of worms...and I know I will buy more than I should while I am there). So, once I get cocoons from horn worms, once I get the worms...will let you know if the moths come out capable of flying or not
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PHLdyPayne

Another interesting fact about silkworms is that they are extinct in the wild.

Then why do a lot of people say that they find them on their tomato plants if they are extinct?
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Darien Drollinger
www.djsdragonranch.com

They find hornworms on their tomato plants. Silkworms only eat Mulberry leaves.

Silkworms are not even native to north american..I believe they are originally, a Asian species. Hence why China was big in the silk trade.

www.suekayton.com/Silkworms/history.htm

www.vegansociety.com/html/animals/exploitation/silk_worm.php

insected.arizona.edu/silkinfo.htm
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PHLdyPayne

I talked to the guy at Great Lakes Hornworm and he said that he sent 100 grams of hornworms to the lab to have them tested for how much fat and nutrition they had after he starved them for 2 days and the analysis said that they are 3% fat. Just letting everyone know if they were wondering.
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Darien Drollinger
www.highendreptiles.com