Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I am a wildlife educator and I present my reptile encounters and science workshops to schools and private functions. I have a variety of lizards, snakes, and inverts, the largest being a 6 1/2 ft BCI. Recently, someone offered their snake collection to me complete with all cages. Some of the biggies include a docile 12ft 7yo albino burm, a well-handled 8ft Rock Python, another BCI, and a 5ft normal phase burm. All of these snakes are very well-cared for and handled on a regular basis. There's no way I'm taking the rock python, I really just want to focus on the burms.

I want to work through this decision, but there's no one I can talk to IRL because none of my friends have herps, much less a giant one. My husband isn't into them as much and I think he's afraid of the large snakes. If you guys can offer some insight, I'd appreciate it. Here's what I'm looking at:

1)Will my husband be able to help me? He will be available to help with cleaning and feeding, but my 13yo and 11yo daughters are my working assistants. Would I have them work a burm with me?

2)How will having a burm affect my business insurance?

3)It would have to live in my garage (I'm in Central FL) because I have no room in my house.

4)I have no experience working with or owning burms, but I always learn my species well.

5)FL is adopting a microchip tracking system for Burms in Jan 08. Do I want to open myself up for further inspection from the state, not to mention the possible city code violation? Technically, I'm sure I'm already in code violation for the number of animals, but no one's picked up on that yet!

The positive side is that I find them to be fascinating and they make a huge impact for children. My goal is to overcome misinformation that leads to fear. Anything that gets kids intrigued and interested in reptiles is a plus in my book. I'm just not sure my entire family is ready for that level of commitment.

Yes, if they're well-handled, well-conditioned, snakes, you'll be glad you did.

"chainsaw" gave you some good input. There's on thing in particular he said that I want to make sure you picked up on; "Burms really only live for 2 things: to eat, and..."

Can you afford to feed those extra snakes? Rats or rabbits? I raise my own rats & rabbits for my burms & other snakes. Petstore prices will break the bank, and even ordering F/T is costly. I can raise them at a fraction of the cost. Actually, the 12-footer should be on rabbits and the the smaller one can easily eat newborn rabbits. Rabbits are generally cheaper if you can find a supplier, and the person offering them to you should have a good lead.

Big burms are the "Wow!" factor of talks/shows. The grand finale. It really stresses the importance of responsible selection and keeping of snakes.

Burms are known as "gentle giants." Every one I've had during my 30-plus years of keeping has held true to that.

Here's a few pics of the adults I have now. They produced their first clutch a little over a month ago. www.happyhillbilly.com/bp

I'm short on time at the moment but I'll come back and address your questions later today. I've got to get things ready for my trip down to your neck of the woods. I grew up in Apopka, actually, Plymouth, but nobody knows where Plymouth is. Time to take the kids to see their granny.

Catch ya later!
HH
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

Those are all good points. As a full time wildlilfe educator myself (my title is Curator but that's just a fancy term for pooper scooper and educator wrapped into one), we do keep burms and they are the "oh wow" factor, HOWEVER, I do just as many shows where my largest snakes is an eastern indigo. It's really the presenter's skills and passion and ability to connect to the audience that makes the real difference. I have personally witnessed a very tame burm suddenly snap during a presentation and it was absolutely horrific. If you are not ready for that, don't use a burm (they are the gentle giants of snakes but they are still a wild animal). A young teenager will be of no assistance should a worse case scenario occur. BUT, I do love burms and use them for many shows and have never had a single incident so you just have to know the animals well.

Ask me questions off line if you would like as I am happy to help.

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center

>>Yes, if they're well-handled, well-conditioned, snakes, you'll be glad you did.
>>
>>"chainsaw" gave you some good input. There's on thing in particular he said that I want to make sure you picked up on; "Burms really only live for 2 things: to eat, and..."
>>
>>Can you afford to feed those extra snakes? Rats or rabbits? I raise my own rats & rabbits for my burms & other snakes. Petstore prices will break the bank, and even ordering F/T is costly. I can raise them at a fraction of the cost. Actually, the 12-footer should be on rabbits and the the smaller one can easily eat newborn rabbits. Rabbits are generally cheaper if you can find a supplier, and the person offering them to you should have a good lead.
>>
>>Big burms are the "Wow!" factor of talks/shows. The grand finale. It really stresses the importance of responsible selection and keeping of snakes.
>>
>>Burms are known as "gentle giants." Every one I've had during my 30-plus years of keeping has held true to that.
>>
>>Here's a few pics of the adults I have now. They produced their first clutch a little over a month ago. www.happyhillbilly.com/bp
>>
>>I'm short on time at the moment but I'll come back and address your questions later today. I've got to get things ready for my trip down to your neck of the woods. I grew up in Apopka, actually, Plymouth, but nobody knows where Plymouth is. Time to take the kids to see their granny.
>>
>>Catch ya later!
>>HH
>>-----
>>Due to political correctness run amuck,
>>this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
>>Appalachian American
-----
Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Definitely take Rob up on his offer of extra communication. He's helped me a few times and sometimes he even knows what he's talking about. Hahaha!!!

Getting back to your numbered questions;
1)Will my husband be able to help me? He will be available to help with cleaning and feeding, but my 13yo and 11yo daughters are my working assistants. Would I have them work a burm with me?"

Sounds like my wife & your husband feel about the same way towards snakes. My wife doesn't mind them, will hold them once in awhile, but still is pretty leery of my big burms.

My wife helps me & since it's just us and our 8 & 12yr old kids, we sometimes do a review of our emergency plans. I wouldn't be afraid, as far as your daughters' safety goes, with your daughters being my assistants with my snakes. The ones you might be getting may be a different story, I don't know them.

Depending on their level of maturity and how they deal with emergency situations, I believe its possible for them to be effective if a large snake were to ever get a hold of you, in getting it to release you.

I beleive it's easier to use things like - vinegar, strong liquor, etc..., poured into the snake's mouth than it is to try to use brute force. Large snakes are incredibly strong.

Adults tend to think more clearly in emergency situations, but that's not to say that your daughters couldn't.

2)How will having a burm affect my business insurance?

With Florida's new dangerous animal regulations going into effect soon I wouldn't be surprised if insurance companies aren't already incorporating clauses, exclusions. Some companies have a "don't ask, don't tell" policy (obviously I'm atlking about homeowner's insurance here). If you have a bond or liability insurance for your talks/shows, I doubt it'll have any effect. Ain't but one way to find out for sure, call 'em.

3)It would have to live in my garage (I'm in Central FL) because I have no room in my house.

A good thermostat for the cage & ambient room temps aprox 10 degress below maximum cage temps should work fine.

5)FL is adopting a microchip tracking system for Burms in Jan 08. Do I want to open myself up for further inspection from the state, not to mention the possible city code violation? Technically, I'm sure I'm already in code violation for the number of animals, but no one's picked up on that yet!

I'm biting my lip real hard to keep from going off here on FL's ridiculous microcrap chip, or, microchip crap. Good intentions, lousy enactment or approach.

Stay on the good side of the law. If you take being an educator seriously you don't want to do anything to jeopardize that grand opportunity. Approach the most sensible person on the city council or whatever, privately, and see if you can be granted an exception or at least given quite some time to make other arrangements. If no satisfactory results, try another member or go before the whole board/council. This is where the integrity of your educational talks/shows will go a long way.

I hope this helps.

Best to ya!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

Yes, we're very legit, even had an alligator inspection yesterday by the FWC. I don't necessarily disagree with the FL law and microchipping requirement, I'm not sure how they're going to enforce it all. There are so many people who buy these large snakes and don't want them as soon as they have buy or make a 6-8ft enclosure and buy rabbits for food.

I have a frozen rodent supplier, so cost and availability isn't an issue. This large snake is supposed to be a teddy bear...no strong feeding response, hangs out with owner in the pool and the yard.

What gets me is when I'm at a summer camp to do a show and some adult asks me, "Did you hear about the show when the huge snake went nuts and bit the little girl on the face?" I just don't think I could ever forgive myself if I ever had an accident like that. I have policies in place for petting and handling, but yikes!

Thanks, guys, I guess I'll be talking to my poor husband this weekend!

> > > "I guess I'll be talking to my poor husband this weekend!"

Ha! Talk his ear off. Sweet talk, that is. You women know how to turn on the charm, my wife sure does.

Just so you don't think I'm a total rebel about regulations, the problem I see with nearly all controlling or restricting regulations, dealing with just about anything, is they only create hardships for us responsible keepers/owners.

You see, the people that release them into the wild are irresponsible in many other areas of their life, not just as keepers/owners. They're going to circumvent every policy put into place & continue to do the same thing.

That's just my take on it. Like I said, I believe there might've been good intentions behind this one, and it's not based just on ignorance & fear, like some other states, municipalities.

Take care & best wishes to you!
HH
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

>>Technically, I'm sure I'm already in code violation for the number of animals, but no one's picked up on that yet!

No you're not. FL's state wildlife laws are preemptive. Local ordinances only apply to domestic animals, although you could potentially have to go to court and educate a judge who won't know any more about this than the local fuzz.

They can regulate what you build in the way of outside cages via zoning, but not what animals you keep directly. Local building departments can and do make the keeping of things like big cats impossible by makeing it against code to build the cages required by the state law, but it shouldn't be an issue for you.

Now, if you're renting, you have other issues.
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What goes up must come down...unless it exceeds escape velocity.