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Does anyone have any field experience with Northern Pine snakes? I am looking to locate the elusive Virginia population which is said to reside in the central/north western portion of the state. My understanding of pine snake habitat is pretty much the text book sand hill type of environment but the region they occur in Va is very rocky and mountainous to my knowledge and without said sandy terrain. Im sure sandy soil is still a major factor as it is across most of P.melanoleucus range but due to the lack of said typical environment, well, I am clueless what to look for.

I must admit that I haven’t gone out into those regions to do recon yet but having visited the sand hills of NC a few times and knowing that Northern pines reside there I just cant see this sort of habitat being present in the mountainous regions of the state though I definitely cant rule it out either.

I have some experience with Crotalus horridus which shares its range with P.melanoleucus in at least NJ (horridus are said to be in the pine barrens) and apparently Va. The region in Va I am referring to is prime horridus habitat but horridus are found fairly high up on the slopes in very rocky terrain with hardly if any sandy soil. Can Northern Pine snakes inhabit these niches as well? Even in the valleys, the terrain is still very rocky and I have yet to see sandy soil in my ventures. Am I just missing it or am is it wrong to think Northern pines require this natural substrate?

Does anyone here have experience with P.melanolecus at higher elevations who could share some advice? Are there any papers on their natural history that could help me out?

BTW, my interest in this population is strictly observation and photography.

Thanks in advance and feel free to email me if you don’t feel comfortable explaining this on a public forum. Any help will be greatly appreciated.

All the best,
Jeremy

Man, I didn't know you were a Pit fan too! That's awesome...

I can't help re: field experience with these guys, but I CAN tell you that I have a cb 2003 pair and they're probably my favorite colubrid!

-AzAtrox

Heck yea man! Northern Pine snakes are probaly my favorate species period. I have 1.1 6 ft plus Northerns, 1.0 5 ft Black and 1.1 Bullsnakes at home (stillwater CB female, dwarf male). Though I wouldnt mind getting the bullsnakes to a good home (need to make room for some Agkistrodon that I have coming in) I will never part with my pines. Their intellegence, size, personality and coloration are just awe inspireing! My big male is my favorate snake in the world!

Looks like great minds think and keep alike :-D

Take care bud,
Jeremy

Pine snakes are not always found in the textbook situations such as sandhills and pine barrens. Some populations like ours in Ky utilize habitat which is probably sub-optimal in the classical sense. I know very little first hand about what is going on with Pituophis in Va but I suspect it is similar in many respects to our situation here.

My first suggestion would be to research historical records of occurrence and refine your search area. Once there I would suggest scoping out the best available habitat. For us this is upland situations where the soil is well drained though not necessarily sandy. If fact truly sandy soil is fairly uncommon here and the places where we have found Pits has more of a gravelly character to it. We look for stands of mixed forest, typically pine and oak. Pits shun situations where the canopy is dense so these places are avoided. Brushy clearings with good sunlight penetration that have the occasional small tree growing in here and there are what we believe to be prime. When these places are found we attempt to find out who owns the property. Meeting and becoming familiar with the locals can make all the difference in the world on whether you are successful or not. We like to get landowner consent to search on land that is favorable habitat and then take it one step further and gain permission to lay out artificial cover(AC). We also use funnel traps which are generally considered as the preferred method of locating Pits. You may want to check with your state DNR on these though. Permits are sometimes required to deploy these. I would also suggest spending as much time as possible under the most favorable of conditions in the habitat. Crusing roads, hiking around etc..Be prepared to spend a lot of time at it because most likely this is what its going to require. AC takes time to mature so patience is needed. It may take a couple of years for it to yield maximum results. For what its worth we have found many horridus at one of our Pit sites so this may be a positive sign.

Its good to hear that there are others that are searching for other populations of Pits. It is not an easy task but the reward is well worth the effort!

We are in our fifth year of dedicated searching for Pits here in Ky and to date we have found two. By most standards this would be considered as a poor result but in reality we have been very fortunate.

Good luck!

Phil

check out joseph mitchell's book,reptiles of virginia......i think that's what i like so much about the pines,how enigmatic they are.....for whatever reason,what we know about them really seems incomplete/spotty,(e.g. their current range!).

-----
"with head raised regally,and gazing at me with lidless eyes,he seemed to question with flicks of his long forked tongue my right to trespass on his territory" Carl Kauffeld

Thank you for the tip Justin. I will look into getting that book this weekend. Im embaressed that i dont have a copy already but since living here in Va I have spent most of my time in NC snake hunting and over looked my own back yard LOL

Beautiful shots btw! Is that first one a Southern?

Take care,
Jeremy

Awesome info Phil! Thank you very much for posting and yes, I absolutly love feild observation! The thrill is the same as finding gold! Its one thing to keep them in a cage, its another to stomp around on their turf. I just dont think one can fully understand a species without having ventured into its natural habitat. Take this very post as an example. Littature led me to belive that pines need extreamly sandy soil. Obviously that is not the case 100 percent of the time.

back on subject. This is exactly the info I was looking for! Its good to know that pines can be found outside of your text book setting. With the depletion of optimal habitat throughout the eastern U.S its wonderfull to know that maybe the secretive life style is realy the main reason we have problems finding them. No doubt there is a huge decline as with most species but it makes me feel better to realize that maybe its not as bad as I was thinking. If they can inhabit other nitches then they have ALOT of prime habitat in Va. Unfortunately this habitat is not always so easy to see due to the thick foliage of the Appilachians.

Regarding VA, the reports are few and far between and I havent heard of a documented finding in atleast 20 years (though I could have easily missed somthing). I know the counties they are reported from but having been through that terrain in the past I can tell you that "needle in a hay stack" dosent even come close to describing how hard it is scope out prime settings. I am going to try and contact the Virginia Herpetological Soceity and see if anyone has a reported sighting that can help me narrow my search. Knowing that Pines can occur in higher elavations with C.horridus make me wonder if I could find any in other states as well. My horridus area has a mountain top clearing exactly as you described. though the state its in considers them extinct they could easily be wrong.

I have another question. Are pinesnakes this problematic to find in your typical text book setting? (i.e NJ pine barrens, NC sandhills etc)Its amzeing how hard it is to come across one of the largest snakes in the country lol

Thanks again for helping shed some light on their habitat. Wish me luck and the same back at you!

BTW, just for fun here are a few C.horridus pics from 2 weeks ago.

All the best,
Jeremy

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