Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Can a boa be Het for either?

I know that on average if you breed either a Motley or an Arab to a normal you will get 50% Motley or 50% Arabs.

Are the normals Het for the pattern morph? or does this trait work differently from color traits?

Please explain.

Thanks.

These traits are not simple recessive but they are co-dom/dom. There is no het for either one. If you breed either one to a normal boa you will get both morphs and normals. The normals are just that, normal and not het for anything. Hope this helps.

Joe

Het or heterozygous by definition is two dis-similar genes paired together. That can be a recessive gene like albino paired with a normal gene. It can also be a codominant gene like Motley paired with it's corresponding normal gene.

I see it over and over again mostly in hypo where "breeding two hypos will yield 1/4 normal and 3/4 hypo with 1/3 of those being dominant hypos" DOMINANT HYPO should not be used to describe the homozygous hypo, in boas, ALL hypos are dominant, both het hypo and homozygous hypo. The nuts and bolts correct description would be:

het hypo x het hypo
1/4 normal
3/4 visual hypo (33% possibility of being homozygous hypo)

het motley x het motley
1/4 normal
1/2 het motley
1/4 homozygous (or super) motley

Motley having a third phenotype since it's a codominant morph

And just to get extra wacky, although not proven yet, it's believed to be that the caramel hypo and sharp albino genes share the same locus so any of these pairings would be considered "hets"

normal plus caramel hypo (het caramel hypo)
normal plus sharp albino (het sharp albino)
caramel hypo plus sharp albino (visually a "paradigm"
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
24.36 BRB
19.19 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Keep hittin' that nail on the head,one day we'll drive her home...I for one,appreciate you always being there with the correct information when these questions arise.(*a respectful tip of the hat*)
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HarlequinBoa.com Captive born excellence through applied genetic theory...and,astute observations based on a keen sense of the sometimes painfully obvious

tossed about and spread around like so much bull$#!@

Definately not saying I am any kind of authority on the subject, just tried to learn what I do know correctly and doing my part to pass that knowledge on.

Big pet peeve.....dominant hypo, dominant ghost, dominant sunglow, AINT NO SUCH BEASTIES!!!! I don't even have a problem with calling them "supers" at least it's a slang that doesn't have a real meaning that negates or totally confuses the intended usage.
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
24.36 BRB
19.19 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

I'm REALLY tired of breeders who should know better dividing salmoms into dominant and codoms. Salmon is a dominant gene period no matter if it has one copy of the salmon gene (heterozgous) or two copies (homozygous.)

I think there are LOTS of boa breeders who could use a good genetics book. This one is best for snake breeders...

http://cornguide.com/genetics.php
GENETICS

I simply stated that there is not het for arab or motley? YOu can either be normal, motley/arabesque or super motley/arabesque.

Joe

it is a incorrect statement to say "there is not het for arab or motley" , a motley boa (not super) IS het for motley as there is one motley gene paired with one normal gene. By definition, "having the two alleles at corresponding loci on homologous chromosomes different for one or more loci"

Translation = having two different genes within a gene pair.

Motley when referred to how the animal looks is a phenotypical description. aka it looks like a motley, has motley patterns and coloring etc.

Motley when referred to as what is the genetic makeup of an individual snake refers to a specific gene pair.

Bottom line IMO ALL genetic morphs can and should be referred to as het when having one mutant gene paired with a normal (or different mutant) gene. This has nothing to do with how the animal looks,
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
24.36 BRB
19.19 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

i don't think that there is a super arab. i think that they are all hets. it is a theory that they slug out the super/ homozygous form of the morph. i could be extreemly wrong though, it happens alot from what my wife says. lol

So you are likening the Hypo gene with the Motley/Arab gene.

Being as such.

You either are Hypo or you're not. Het Hypo is the same as being Hypo. Although being homozygous for Hypo (or super) enables for a stronger Hypo gene which is passed on to 100% of the offspring. Bear in mind, I'm talking in base, laymen, terms here.

This clears some thing up for me.

So the Anery and Albino genes are simple recessive and therefore can be passed on to the offspring as a 'hidden gene'.

Hypo/Motley/Arab are co-dominant/dominant and therefore 'Are' or 'Are Not'. It is the strength of the gene that makes the difference here.

Thanks.

Using both in the same example as morphs that are dominant (or codominant) over the normal gene.

Homozygous for hypo does not make for a "stronger" gene, simply means that within the gene pair where the hypo gene resides, there are two copies of the hypo gene. So, no matter which of the two the parent passes on to the offspring, it has to be a hypo gene, hence all the babies looking hypo

Another way to look at or think of it would be to say hypo het normal. Since hypo is dominant over the normal gene, it can also be said that the normal gene is recessive to the hypo gene. Using your words, when talking hypo (het hypo) x hypo (het or homozygous hypo) the "normal" gene can be passed on as a hidden gene since it is recessive to the hypo gene.

But who wants to describe a hypo/normal gene pair that way.

Of course Motley is different being codominant, when there are two motley genes paired up in the same animal, it shows as a third visual phenotype. So a "super" motley is visually distinguishable from a het motley or a homozygous normal.
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
24.36 BRB
19.19 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

"normal plus caramel hypo (het caramel hypo)
normal plus sharp albino (het sharp albino)
caramel hypo plus sharp albino (visually a "paradigm"

You can also get Paradigms by breeding a het caramel to a het Sharp. That is if one of the babies inherits one caramel gene AND one Sharp gene. The "cheap" way to produce Paradigms.

It works the same with Ultraamel cornsnakes.

>>"normal plus caramel hypo (het caramel hypo)
>>normal plus sharp albino (het sharp albino)
>>caramel hypo plus sharp albino (visually a "paradigm"
>>
>>You can also get Paradigms by breeding a het caramel to a het Sharp. That is if one of the babies inherits one caramel gene AND one Sharp gene. The "cheap" way to produce Paradigms.
>>
>>It works the same with Ultraamel cornsnakes.
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
24.36 BRB
19.19 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Meant to add I was discussing het from a single gene point, not from the total genetics of the parents. So I meant:

one caramael hypo (gene) plus sharp albino (gene) = paradigm

So Mike, if we were to call that gene pairing het, which by definition it is, what would it be? Het paradigm???
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
24.36 BRB
19.19 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

boawoman caramel//Sharp albino.

I would interpret "het paradigm" as having a paradigm gene paired with a normal gene, which is not correct.

By the way, excellent posts, Dave.

Paul Hollander

chime in?

I like it, so would that be - het boawoman caramel//Sharp albino. I'm thinking that would be correct since the typical usage of het is mutant paired to normal so there is no need to identify the normal gene, simply assumed. ie you could say het albino//normal but het albino conveys the same meaning with less keystrokes.

Thanks Paul, means a lot to me coming fom you. It wasn't all that long ago when I was totally new to boa genetics and you were helping me to understand.
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
24.36 BRB
19.19 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

If i am correct (and i COULD be mistaken) you can have a Het motley, but the trait is visable (obviously looking like a motley) the difrence between simple resessive and codom is that you can see the morph in a codom but you cannot in a resessive.

So HET albino you cant tell (doesnt look albino)
Het motley you can tell its motley

Homogenous (sp?) for albino looks albino
Homo Motley is a "super-motley"

if i am wrong someone let me know
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Russ
1.0 Basset Hound (Goofy)
1.0 Brazilian Rainbow Boa (Apollo)
1.0 Columbian Rainbow Boa (Odin)
1.0 Guyana Red-Tail Boa (Ares)
0.1 Pastel Salmon Boa (Minerva)
0.1 Rosy Boa (Athena)
1.1 Western Hognoses (???)

Melbourne, Fl

>>If i am correct (and i COULD be mistaken) you can have a Het motley, but the trait is visable (obviously looking like a motley) the difrence between simple resessive and codom is that you can see the morph in a codom but you cannot in a resessive.
>>
>>So HET albino you cant tell (doesnt look albino)
>>Het motley you can tell its motley
>>
>>Homogenous (sp?) for albino looks albino
>>Homo Motley is a "super-motley"
>>
>>if i am wrong someone let me know
>>-----
>>Russ
>>1.0 Basset Hound (Goofy)
>>1.0 Brazilian Rainbow Boa (Apollo)
>>1.0 Columbian Rainbow Boa (Odin)
>>1.0 Guyana Red-Tail Boa (Ares)
>>0.1 Pastel Salmon Boa (Minerva)
>>0.1 Rosy Boa (Athena)
>>1.1 Western Hognoses (???)
>>
>>Melbourne, Fl
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
24.36 BRB
19.19 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

I think that Dave is trying to flex his snake knowledge muscle so to speak without answering the basic original question (and makes himself look like a forum bully). He simply wanted to know if there was such a snake as a "normal looking" boa that could carry the motley or arabesque gene and produce such boas. Dave knew exactly what he meant. Obviously a motley can produce other motleys!

After looking at my post, I don't think that it is appropriate for this forum. I apologize.

I was answering the first line and totally missed the third.

>>Can a boa be Het for either?
>>
>>I know that on average if you breed either a Motley or an Arab to a normal you will get 50% Motley or 50% Arabs.
>>
>>Are the normals Het for the pattern morph? or does this trait work differently from color traits?

Was not intending to be a bully and appologize to anyone who felt offended. I fully admit I get irritated at the genetics misinformation being spread around. I started out learning the genetics from these type posts and had to re-learn those points that were incorrectly stated back then. And still see the same types of incorrect points.
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
24.36 BRB
19.19 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

I know that someone mentioned this briefly in one of the posts and also suggested that the supers get 'slugged out'.

But, has anyone bred an Arab to an Arab? Do 25% of the snakes (on average) slug out? I don't know why the Arab trait would slug out while the Motley and Hype traits don't.

Produced a litter of what he believes where super arabs. They where extremely reduced pattern and had racing stripes down the sides but little or no saddles. I believe they exist but I will know in 2 years when I breed arab X arab.

Joe

>I know that someone mentioned this briefly in one of the posts and also suggested that the supers get 'slugged out'.

>But, has anyone bred an Arab to an Arab? Do 25% of the snakes (on average) slug out? I don't know why the Arab trait would slug out while the Motley and Hype traits don't.

I do not know whether anyone has bred arabesque x arabesque. I would also be interested in the results if known.

I can say that it is possible for a codominant mutant gene to be lethal when homozygous. For example, dominant yellow mice have a nice yellow color while normally colored mice are brownish. Dominant yellow mice are heterozygous for the mutant gene; they have a dominant yellow mutant gene paired with a normal gene. Mating two dominant yellows can produce babies that are homozygous for the mutant, but they die within a day or so of birth.

Oddly enough, there are several mutant alleles to the dominant yellow mutant. And these mutants are not lethal when homozygous.

By the way, a mutant can be USUALLY lethal when homozygous rather than ALWAYS lethal when homozygous. As to why a mutant is lethal, in many cases nobody has figured it out yet.

Theoretically possible is not the same as known for certain. The idea has to be tested.

The best way to test for lethality is to breed arabesque x arabesque to try to make homozygous arabesques. Then raise the possible homozygous arabesques and breed them to normals to see if they are heterozygous. Do this with at least twenty possible homozygous arabesques. The results should give a pretty good indication of whether arabesque is lethal when homozygous. This will take a considerable amount of time.

Paul Hollander

Of something like that years ago,but had no hard facts on the subject.(don't even really remember where I heard,or read about it?) I appreciate the info,Paul(as always)and,thank you for taking the time to share it,though I hope it ends up not being the case with the Arabesque trait,it's extremely interesting food for thought,IMO...(Dave,keep fighting the good fight,it's not all wasted time,you big "brain-bully" you! *lol* )
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HarlequinBoa.com Captive born excellence through applied genetic theory...and,astute observations based on a keen sense of the sometimes painfully obvious