Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I'm curious if anyone here's working with any morphs on texas ratsnakes aside from the leucistics. I don't find the leucistics to be all that attractive, however the axanthic and high-orange texas rats are real lookers. Anyway, if anyone is working with these, I'd like to see some pictures, and I might be interested in acquiring some down the road. Thanks!
Kevin

I expect to breed the high orange morph next year. Mine are a really nice tangerine with chocolate blotches. Too bad I live in the Netherlands, huh?

Yeah, that's too bad that you're all the way in the netherlands. Do you have any pictures of the texas rats you expect to breed? I love those high orange texas rats, does anyone know anything about that particular trait, how it's passed on, etc? Thanks,
Kevin

It's not like some kind of mutant recessive trait that can be crossed into other strains without dilluting it's visual effect. Some natural populations of Texas Ratsnakes are more orange than others, like the Kingsville Red Bullsnakes are, or like the Okeetee Cornsnakes are. These orange Texas Ratsnakes have been selectively bred to enhance colors, and that's all there is to it.

I don't have a digital camera at the moment, so pictures will have to wait.

Kevin:
I work with an orange line. My breeders came from Jim Sargent at Split Rock Reptiles who said they came from Lloyd Lemke's stock. I've been working to breed a lighter strain. It's too early to say how that will go. I'll attach a couple of photos

Best regards
John

John, I really like your specimen. In my animals the blotches are rather brownish, but other than that quite similar.

The picture of the juvenile makes me wonder, though. Just doesn't look like your typical Texas Ratsnake hatchling, this goes especially for the head. Could there be something else in the mix, like an Everglades perhaps?

Don't get me wrong, I have the same doubts concerning my own animals, and the origin of the orange Texas Ratsnake morph in general.

Great looking snakes nevertheless, whatever they are.

Best Regards,

Herman.

Herman:
Certainty of origins in something like this is close to impossible. Lloyd Lemke died awhile ago so I couldn't write to him for info. As far as eveglades, I've never seen any striping at all in any of the animals I've hatched out.

As far as what I've discovered here is what I've heard. I've communicated with field herpers who think this particular color of lindheimeri looks like it comes from somewhere in Louisiana. I've seen some photos that seem to confirm this.

With respect to my lindies there is a good amount of variation in color. Some of them are pretty light, others not so much. I am selecting in the litters for the lighter individuals. I hope to breed for a less dark looking snake. I've attached two photos to show the range of color I've seen on young snakes I've hatched out.

Best regards
John

Those are some very good looking texas rats, that's what I'm looking to try and breed at some point.
Kevin

I have a pair Texas Rats that came from orange morph parents. One is somewhat orange and the other looks normal. The origin of the stock was WC animals from the College Station area of Texas where I am told the morph is very common. Even though both parents expressed the orange trait, one of the offspring did not. It could be that the breeder messed up because I know that he was breeding both normal and orange morph Texas Rats that year. To be honest, I like them both. I will try to post a photo or two this weekend.

Yeah, I don't know what it is about texas rat snakes that grabs me, but I think they might be my favorite north american ratsnake. That orange phase is just so cool.

Kevin

>> Could there be something else in the mix, like an Everglades perhaps?

There are definitely crosses out there (Love lines), but if John's line came from Lemke they are most likely "pure" lindheimeri. I don't have the email anymore but if I remember correctly Lemke told me the Orange phase originated from southwest Louisiana.

dg

I never communicated with Lemke (though I've heard many good things about his collection). I wonder if anyone on the field forum at KS could post photos from SW LA. I'll put a request there and see if anyone bites.

Regards
John

Just for the record the late great lemke was calling amel lavender blk rats "hypos".....It tooks some breeding and a great guy from KY to show me the light !!!!!!!!!

Hey Dwight,
I sent you an email and haven't heard back. Drop me a line.

Take care
Jeff Port

>>Hey Dwight,
>>I sent you an email and haven't heard back. Drop me a line.
>>
>>Take care
>>Jeff Port

I sent a reply but it came back as undeliverable.

dg

Interesting story. Unfortunately, naturally occuring populations of orange Texas Rats do not make the 'someones little science project' scenario any less likely. I clearly remember the original orange morphs surfacing the herpetocultural mainstream in the early '90s. The ones that I've seen in recent years, on this forums, at reptile shows, in my collection, are quite different from those. Much more orange, smaller heads. Could be selective inbreeding, could be selective crossbreeding. Who's to say?

Only expensive DNA test would reveal the answer. I guess I'm not that eager to know...

Best regards,

Herman.

All I know is they're beautiful, often overlooked, and I want to breed them. I felt, and still feel the same way about coachwhips, actually.

Kevin

Yeah, coachwhips are cool!

>>Interesting story. Unfortunately, naturally occuring populations of orange Texas Rats do not make the 'someones little science project' scenario any less likely. I clearly remember the original orange morphs surfacing the herpetocultural mainstream in the early '90s. The ones that I've seen in recent years, on this forums, at reptile shows, in my collection, are quite different from those. Much more orange, smaller heads. Could be selective inbreeding, could be selective crossbreeding. Who's to say?
>>
>>Only expensive DNA test would reveal the answer. I guess I'm not that eager to know...
>>
>>Best regards,
>>
>>Herman.

Fair enough. There is an interesting pair of pictures on pages 106 and 107 of a book called "Rat Snakes: A Hobbyist's Guide to Elaphe and Kin" by Ray Staszko and Jerry G. Walls. One is an orange phase lindy (photo by Lloyd Lemke) and the other is a cross between a normal lindy and a yellow ratsnake. They're similar but the markings on the intergrade are not distinct. The saddles are lighter and the ground color is darker than the other snake. The lindy looks cleaner. Now of course there is no proof where the orange-phase came from but it definitely looks distinctly different from the man-made orange. What is definite is that the orange phase in that book looks like it's related to the snakes I'm working with (although it is a lighter individual than any of mine presently).

In the final analysis no one can prove it's natural or not. I'm going to see if I can get someone on the field forum to post a lindy from SW LA. If it looks like mine that'll be good enough.

Regards
John

You're right. As a hobbyist, there's only that much you can do to reassure your animal's origin. In the end, it all comes down to taking some guy's word for it anyway. Like I said before, I like these orange 'Texas Ratsnakes' a lot, regardless of what they'll eventually may or may not turn out to be.

Best regards,

Herman.

BTW, nice looking snakes John. Wasn't Jim calling those hypos though?

dg

>>BTW, nice looking snakes John. Wasn't Jim calling those hypos though?
>>
>>dg

Thanks Dwight. Jim said he was getting some hypos in the litters of oranges. I've found that to be the case. It's really a matter of opinion what you'd call hypo. As they age even the hypos darken. Maybe after I've had a chance to select for hypo it will start to run true and become more pronounced. Have you seen any very light "hypo" adult orange phase lindies?

Regards
John

Not a very good pic, but this guy is definitely a looker. My friend got him for $10. I can try to get some nice posed shots as he never hesitates to bite.

John

SW LA? If so, that would lead me to believe that the Lemke line I'm working with is from that area.

By the way, that's a good-looking snake.

Best regards
John Firneno

It is actually from around Baton Rouge. I live in Baton Rouge and do a lot of field herping around here but I have never found one quite that orange. It seems very possible that the orange Tx rats could have that kind of range. Lake Charles in southwest LA is only a 2.5 or so hour drive.

John

>>It is actually from around Baton Rouge. I live in Baton Rouge and do a lot of field herping around here but I have never found one quite that orange. It seems very possible that the orange Tx rats could have that kind of range. Lake Charles in southwest LA is only a 2.5 or so hour drive.
>>
>>John

Here is a pic I found on the web at http://www.geocities.com/onias_2000/texasratsnake.html, its from Carencro in Lafayette County (not exactly southwest LA, but southwest centralish):

Lafayette *Parish*, silly Napoleonic Code.
Nice snake btw.

John

>>Lafayette *Parish*, silly Napoleonic Code.

Whoops, I stand corrected. :O

were a waste of time, until my recent move to the southern Texas Hill Country. Some of the rats from this area are just gorgeous-bright oranges, yellows and blacks on a rich mahogany ground color. One of my projects over the next couple of years will be selecting a small group of breeders out of the ones I happen across in the field.

Brad Chambers

I have a pair of locality Texas rats that were offspring from a wc gravid female from Montgomery County, Texas. They have quite a bit of orange on the anterior part of the body, which fades to a darker, muddier color after mid-body. They have mostly dark, reddish brown saddles, which also get darker toward the tail. Here's a bad photo of the female, which also has some aberrant dorsal saddles, and quite a bit of white interstitial skin.

-Toby Brock

n/p

I need to get some better pics of her and the male. This photo does not do her justice.

-Toby

I love those snakes! Both the one purchased for ten bucks and the one sitting on the coffee can are lookers! How well does the orange pass on to the offspring? Anyone have pics of offspring?
Kevin

Thanks Kevin! The one on the coffee can is the female of a locality pair from Montgomery County, TX. I have not bred them yet, but will try next spring. They are 2004 hatch and I prefer to wait until my snakes are 3.5 - 4 yrs old before I try to breed them. I think that the orange phase lindheimeri are supposed to breed true, but not sure what I have here, yet. Both male and female have a lot of orange, but not to the extent that you usually see in orange phase captive bred lines. Their mother was more reddish than orange, according to the person who captured her and hatched the eggs.

-Toby

That's a gorgeous snake.

Thanks! I got her and the male when they were yearlings, and at that time, the orange parts were more peach colored. The male actually has nicer looking saddles (imo), but slightly less intense orange ground color. I'll have to get some better pics of them soon.

-Toby

an older pic of an cb 04 i got from wc parents found breeding in texas that year. funny thing is, it's colors seem paler now as he's gotten bigger. i also once bought an almost completely blackish female at havre de grace about 10 years ago which when bred to an average looking male threw those lemke looking lindheimeri's though it took a couple years to develope. like an idiot, i later sold her off as i thought she was ugly. :>/

It begs the question what it looks like now. I've got to shoot a few follow up photos of my breeders and their descendants.

Best regards
John

I suppose you've had your eyes checked? That snake is a killer!

that's a different animal altogether herman. he's pretty good & he had a killer sister which i gave to my nephew. she got away [naturally] & is probably killing mice on her own in philly by now. the 'ugly one' was sold to as a het long ago & apparently she was. her offspring were fabulously orange & chocolate w/ some hypos thrown in once in awhile. she herself however had very faded, barely discernable markings on a very dingy foreground. i'm still kicking myself for selling her! john, i'll take fresh pics this week and post them later as that one is over 2 years old. he's got alot of red in between his scales thats hard to show.

I look forward to seeing the update.

Regards
John

How about those scaleless texas rats those are totally awsome!!!!

... NOT!!!

They are hideous.

Thats your opinion....

I believe they will be the next BIG thing...