Reptile & Amphibian Forums

As far as these two morphs go I've heard so many varying opinions that my head is spinning.

I'm looking for someone to clear up some questions I have:

1.) Are they the same morph or not? I see a similarity... but to me they look different. I've heard otherwise though.

2.) I've heard and read different things about the homozygous versions of each and I'm looking to clear it up. I've read that the Super Cinnamon produces a patternless BROWN animal and that the Super Black Pastel produces a patternless BLACK animal. Do I have that right?

3.) Does anyone have a list of the various morph combos that have been produced by each of these morphs? I've had trouble keeping up with and sorting out all of the names and combos that have been hatched out.

Thanks for the help... I'm on the fence about which to purchase next... I will want both in the future but for the time being I am looking for the one that has the most potential as far as the combos I want to produce.

They are different lines of the same "morph". The black pastel produces offspring with more black and a bit more contrast. The extent of that difference from a typical cinnamon depends on the animal.

Just playing around with cinnamons...you could produce super cinnamons...

As far as combos go: pewters, silver bullet, cinnabee, hypo cinnamon, pewterbee...the list goes on...and will continue to increase in the future.

I think the cinnamon is a good investment if you want to produce combo morphs in the future.
-----
Thanks,
Amy
www.myboids.4t.com
----
1.16 Normal ball pythons
2.0 Pastel ball pythons
1.0 Cinnamon pastel ball python
0.0.1 Sinaloan Milk Snake
0.0.1 Plains Garter
0.1 Normal Kenyan Sand Boa
2.0 Anery Kenyan Sand Boa
1.0 Mid-Baja Rosy Boa
0.1 Leucistic Texas Rat
1.2 Dumeril's Boa
1.2 BCI
That's Just The Snakes!

"1.) Are they the same morph or not? I see a similarity... but to me they look different. I've heard otherwise though."

Answer: Well, it depends on the definition of morph. Cinnamon and Black Pastel, are what are referred to as "Alleles" of each other. Meaning they occupy the same locii on the gene (can't have a Double Homozygous Cinnamon Black Pastel). The Phenotype (observable traits) for both are very very similar, but the genotypes are different. Just think of it this way, each one comes from it's own ancestral line.

2.) I've heard and read different things about the homozygous versions of each and I'm looking to clear it up. I've read that the Super Cinnamon produces a patternless BROWN animal and that the Super Black Pastel produces a patternless BLACK animal. Do I have that right?

Answer: You are semi correct. The homozygous cinnamons tend to have alot more brown/yellow to them, while the Black Pastels seem to have alot more melanin (black). Both types though are not pure black pigment. Also, I have heard there is some sort of non standard patterning to some of these as well (faint markings) but not enough to be considered real patterning.

3.) Does anyone have a list of the various morph combos that have been produced by each of these morphs? I've had trouble keeping up with and sorting out all of the names and combos that have been hatched out.

For number three, you'll have to wait for others to reply.

Hope this helps and clears it up,
Dan

You two cleared up some of my confusion. I'm wondering, though, why it seems that most combos are made with Cinnamons and the Black Pastels seem to be left in the dust. Is this just an error of my assumption?

Since Amy said that they are "essentially" the same is it simply that most people are calling their snakes Cinnamon when, in fact, they could be referred to as either one? Or is it that the slight differences between the two actually do cause the Cinnamon to produce better combos?

I know, I'm asking all types of questions now, but I would like to start with the morph that most suits my future combo needs and (unfortunately) until I know the differences between the two as well as their capabilities I am at a stand still as far as deciding what combos I want to make.

My take on what you are asking is this...

So far, the only black pastel originating line comes from Gulf Coast Reptiles, and these animals not only produce a darker homozygous form, but also appear quite different from cinnamons in the heterozygous form (more squigglies etc.).

The cinnamons on the other hand, originated with Graziani (correct me if i'm wrong here folks) and since then, many other lines have been brought into the country, with most of them leaning towards the cinnamon phenotype more than the black pastels(that coffee colored head, more floating aliens, less squigglies).

Just my take,
Dan