Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I copied this posting from another forum. Thought is was interesting.

Below is a letter sent to me by Jon Coote, the inventor of T-Rex's Calci-Sand, after I questioned him at great length on its dangers at the Global Pet Expo last February. I don't agree with all his answers, but he defends his product well. You may find it interesting reading.

Please don't flame me for the post...to borrow a phrase, "the opinions expressed herein are not the responsibility of the producer or network." Or however they phrase it when they do impromptu cast interviews on DVDs. LOL

Hope this finds you all well, and staying cool!

Jo

----- Original Message -----
From: Jgcoote@aol.com
To: webmaster@rainforest-pets.com
Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 11:58 AM
Subject: Re: Calci-Sand impactions

Hi Jo,

Following our discussions at last week's Global pet trade show, the reason that T-Rex first introduced calcium sand to the reptile hobby was for two reasons.

First, unlike silica, it is actually digestible, though at the grade size we use it for a substrate, this digestion process is slow and can therefore be overwhelmed if the reptile deliberately ingests a lot of it. We use the exact same calcium in our insect dusting powder MicroStick and this fine grade is digested quickly. It has to do with smaller particle sizes presenting a much greater surface area for the stomach acids to work on and so dissolve it quickly.

The particle size that we use for our calcium sand is actually very carefully thought about. It needs to be fine enough to pass through the gut in small quantities and/or be digested, but large enough to support a reptile without it sinking too far into it. Think about yourself say trying to walk on a two foot layer of beans - you'd find it tough trying to walk across it because you would sink down into it, then consider how easy it would be to walk across a two foot layer of potatoes? It is all about particle size. Larger particle size makes a better substrate.

Secondly, unlike silica sand, calcium sand forms a paste with stomach contents rather than a concrete, as does silica sand. This impacted paste in the gut can be readily treated by a qualified vet with liquid parafin or an intestinal peristalsis modulator, such as metroclopramide, which is given orally. Impacted silica sand concrete does not respond to this treatment and so invariably has to be surgically removed.

The obvious reason why a Bearded Dragon or Leopard Gecko would eat its sand substrate to excess is because it is deficient in calcium and/or vitamin D3. The less obvious, but increasingly common reason is that protozoan parasites, such as coccidia and cryptosporidium, can cause extensive discomfort to a Dragon or Gecko by destroying the lining of its intestines. This discomfort seems to stimulate the Dragon or Gecko to ingest sand and other substrates to excess. It is rather like the Dragon or Gecko is trying to treat itself. Maybe a raw and sore intestine full of sand feels more comfortable to it than an empty one. Unfortunately, as we know, the Dragon or Gecko can do itself even more harm if it ingests a lot of any type of sand.

This is an increasing problem, and one hardly ever seen when we first introduced Calci-Sand over a decade ago, because coccidia is estimated to now be endemic in practically the whole captive bred Bearded Dragon population and cryptosporidium is endemic in the captive bred Leopard Gecko population. It does not usually become symptomatic until triggered by stress. This stress can be caused by many things but insufficient temperature is a particularly common one. Coccidia is usually easy to treat once it becomes symptomatic. Drugs such as BayCox 5% solution from Bayer (0.5cc/kg as a single dose), Trimethoprim, sulfonamides or sulfa drugs are used. One brand that is frequently used in the USA is called Albon.

I hope the above helps you to understand that it is not normal for a Dragon or Gecko to voluntarily eat its sand substrate to the extent that it fills its stomach with it. It is usually a symptom of some underlying disease or nutritional problem. So it is not the fault of the sand itself.

Best regards,

Jon Coote, Director of Research, T-Rex Products Inc.

Thanks for sharing that with us, BDlvr.

As most of us know, rarely are things as they seem, meaning that there's usually more than one factor to every problem.

The person made a good argument, overall. But we don't know the full context of the discussion that lead up to that response. There are a few hints, though.

My pro play sand stance remains. If a beardie lacks clacium it's not going to cause it to eat play sand. But to be fair, non-edible substrate (glass, solid wood, etc...) is the only one that's completely safe. Or is it? Ha!

Did that response influence you? Just curious.

Have a good one!
HH
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

good post there BDLVR. he does defend it well, but to me its not worth the risk to have things like this happen even if its not meant to happen and "rare" to happen. but all in all, good post interesting reading
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Beach Beardies

2.2. bearded dragons
1.1. Sugar Gliders
0.2. Felines *queen athena and missy*

Interesting post but all and all, that email pretty much validates every reason I have to say calcium based sand is bad as a substrate.

It takes a long time to digest due to large grain size.

It clumps if too much is digested (so what if it can be broken down easier than other sands? if not treated right away, or noticed in time, it can still kill the dragon)

No mention on how too much calcium in the stomach can neutralize stomach acidity. Yes, the stomach replenishes it's acidity, but how fast does it do it compared to how fast a 'base' neutralizes it?

However, causes of increased calcium sand intake are the main concerns. People do need to make sure they are giving proper diets and UVB exposure to their dragons as well as proper hydration. Most animals will ingest soils, even their own 'poop' if they feel deficient in certain minerals, such as calcium, salt, etc. Hence the importance of a well balanced and varied diet, regular dustings with multivitamins and minerals, exposure to UVB light, etc.

Not sure I buy the 'high levels of coccidia and other internal parasites' cause dragons to want to fill their gut with sand as they find it feels better,' explanation. High stress in a dragons' life due to insufficient temperatures, improper meals, too much handling or other stress causing factors, certainly will cause flare ups of coccidia and other 'gut' parasites normally present at low levels in dragon guts.

Thus, I am very happy with continuing to recommend non particulate substrates for bearded dragons. Though I do recommend washed children's play sand, due to the reduce risk of impaction it has...I personally don't find it is much better than calcium based sands..Of the two, it is the better, but much better are non particulate substrates such as paper towel, non stick shelf liner etc.
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PHLdyPayne

Of course it didn't influence me. I thought it was interesting to have an inventor defend his product. But, the way I read it he is agreeing that there are problems out there. He just downplays it as anyone that derives income from a product would.

When I go to Toys R Us I buy at least 20 bags at a time (1000 lbs.) I couldn't imagine how much that would cost from a pet store. lol.

I have shelf liner in the part of my enclosures where the crickets are put and absolutely hate it when the go there. Sand is so much better.

Oh I had a bag of Quikrete Play Sand from Home Depot. I've had it for a while and never used it but so many people here claimed it was the same I said heck and used in in one of my enclosures. It was a big mistake. It is extremely dusty, has pebbles, bits of bark and other crap in it and is like an orange color. The Toys R Us sand is white not dusty and if you sifted it you would get nothing out.

Huh? Really? I'll bet it depends on where they sand comes from. I'm sure quikrete gets it from various places. The quikrete playsand I've always used for my geckos is white and dustfree. I have seen a few random pebbles in it occaisionally, but that's all. Just curious, how much does a bag cost at Toys R us? The local toys r us store actually neighbors the home depot where I buy sand. So, if the cost is comparable, I might try it out next time.
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0.9.0 Ball Pythons
0.1.1 Leopard Geckos
0.0.1 Egyptian Tortoise
0.0.1 Bearded Dragons

This year it went up to 5.95 for a 50 lb. bag.