Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I've had a female Mali for about seven years now, no male. Each year when she lays eggs (couple years now) she refuses to use a nesting box, and ends up laying them wherever in her tank.

In the past this was never a problem. This year, however, she took approximately two weeks to lay all of them. I have had her X-rayed, so I know she is egg-free now. She finished laying about a week ago, and still won't eat or drink. Sleeps constantly, and seems exhausted...which I understand is from the egg laying itself, I've force fed her a couple times to keep her hydrated, and used some (Critical Care) to give her some nourishment. When I wake her up, she is alert and moves around without difficulty, but still won't eat or drink on her own. She is parasite-free, but I'm starting to get worried because recovery has never taken so long.

Anyone have any ideas/suggestions? I would appreciate it.

Thank you, Jack.

i am no expert, but i have tubed meds, hydration, and critical care with success,i don't know,a few times, mostly meds and follow up electrolyte. sometimes there is no success even when it looks good. Out of curiosity-how do her eyebrows look? Has she regurgitated more than out of "mistake"?i hate to tube, but sometimes it works like a charm when all else fails and also for meds. like i said i am no expert but for me if they don't come around fast it is a bad sign- also sunken eyebrows i hate to see,one day they look ok the next sunk in, i have never recovered from that. but i am pretty much a noob, meaning i have done it with my pets, others haved tubed shipment after shipment and treated all kinds of ailments.but i am curious about the brows and regurgitation.good luck.

i meant once the eyebrows sink, i have never gotten the animal to recover. Also if they keep regurgitating, no matter how dilute or small an amount-i have not had success from that point.
most of the time, the procedure is successful and only needed for a short time.

Her eyebrows are "normal", not sunken at all. Also, so far at least, she has not regurgitated anything. Actually, to look at her, (except for the wrinkled skin after laying 25 eggs), you would figure she's fine. That's what has thrown me, if the exhaustion this time has affected her more seriously than before...(last year, she also laid approx 25 eggs, but recovered right away). Gastrointestinal "shutdown"?? She's always been super-healthy, and a great eater, so this is not her "normal" self at all...

Hi Jack,
Two weeks is a long time for a female to deposit all
of her eggs. Normal oviposition should not take more
than a few hours and sometimes can take the better
part of a day. After that it really puts a strain on the
female to have to go through that as she is not as
dilated as during the first few hours during normal
deposition.

Have you palpated to see if you can feel an egg(s) in
her? Believe it or not an X-ray doesn't always show
all of the eggs. More often than not they appear as a
faint cluster of small clouds which are sometimes lost
among the inner abdominal cavity masses of fluids,
skeleton and organs. They can appear almost
transparent with no clear outline. which is caused by
the amount of calcium in the egg shells so I wouldn't
trust that X-ray completely.

On the other hand I have taken multiple shots while
varying the exposure density and often times the eggs
I would think I see were more a matter of wishful
thinking.

Below is an x-ray I took last year of a gravid ornate.
You can see what I mean about the tightly grouped
cluster with no definite shapes or outlines.

Unfortunately this female failed due to a stomach
blockage. Something she had eaten was hard and
a dark green color which her stomach acids could
not break down so she basically starved to death.
The eggs were not due for a few weeks as they
were not full size when I extracted them during the
necropsy.

As far as your female, the fact that she laid 25 eggs
in a two week period has evidently taken a toll on
her.

John

Thanks, John, for your posting.
Yes, I palpated her even before she went to the vet, (many times), and the vet did also...she DOES feel clear of eggs. Your x-ray was interesting, though, I've learned something. I see what you mean about the indistinct forms.
I have several (different kinds) reptiles, and I've had many clutches of eggs laid, both fertile and infertile...and I can honestly say this is the first time I've run up against any complications...guess I've been lucky, huh?
My vet was not ready to try any (subcutaneous)fluid therapy yet...have you had any experience with that?

Yes, sub-q fluids is a good first step. It will
quickly/safely replenish what she may have
lost from not eating. Not to mention the on
going stress of having to deal with two weeks
of egg laying. The saline will likely boost her
activity level and could also get her excited
about food once again. She sounds like a real
trooper.

Hopefully you'll soon have good news to
report when she's back to business as usual.

Good luck with her,
John

John, I'm just asking your opinion on this, since you obviously have knowledge in this area... Yesterday was a TERRIBLE day! My female uro, (Adrianna), seemed better..she had a small "poop", which was somewhat watery, but I expected that. Moving around, alert, etc....all of a sudden I noticed her opening her mouth and heaving, as if she were trying to regurgitate..(I had NOT force fed her water for about 36 hous). A few minutes after that, she started to twitch in minor convulsions, still gasping and heaving. In the space of about 10 minutes, she died! Needless to say, I was in shock...
Is it possible she DID have one egg stuck in her, and it burst? What "catastrophic" internal event would have caused death in just a few minutes? I mentioned I have several reptiles, and believe it or not, this is my very FIRST loss....I'm thinking of having necropsy done, but I'm curious as to whether you have an opinion...?? Thanks, Jack

Well, I guess it could have gone either way ... bummer.
It could have been any number of things from liver failure,
Kidney's shutting down, water in the lungs etc. The fact
that she was in her weakened state from the two weeks
of egg laying while not taking food or nourishment for that
amount of time and probably longer could cause severe
dehydration which might contribute to liver and/or kidney
failure. The gasping/heaving sounds more like she may
have been laboring to get air in and out of her lungs.

If at all possible I hesitate in tubing a weakened lizard
and would first of all offer a drop at a time by moistening
the tip of it's snout. If it wants the water it will lick it
up but at it's own pace and quantity. Secondly and a quite
safe is sub-q fluids. A quick and sure way of re hydrating.

An overload of water via a feeding needle which is slow
to digest will just sit there until it just can't hold breath
any longer and when it finally inhales, the lungs end up
being the escape route for some if not most of the water
unless it's lucky enough to regurgitate it back out.

A necropsy is not always a for-sure way of finding a
cause but more often than not, it puts your mind at
ease You would at least know if there are any signs
of egg trauma within the fallopian tubes.

Take care Jack,
John

john in the case of newly acquired wc's obviously dehydrated and thin- would you go with sub-q first?
to share, in Reptile Med. and Surgery(mader) it says to tube 20ml per kg body weight which is 2ml or 2cc(same thing) per 100grams daily. It also says if regurgitated, tubing continues with lesser more dilute amounts.
but that book is not titled Uromastyx Medicine and Surgery so i am interested in what you say.
i think if regurgitated the sub q route would be better,maybe always better,who knows, it is usually written about as more of a later course of action if the others fail. so many opinions...when do you decide, that's it he's going in for sub-q?

Mader is one of the great vets out there I must say.

Your talking about a fresh wc which is likely stressed
and needs to be left along so that acclimation goes
quickly and easily for it.

I personally wouldn't mess with a wc for a few weeks
unless it's on death's door. Best thing is to limit as much
interaction as possible. Cover the tank so that it doesn't
see or hear anyone or pets. Feed/clean before it wakes
and add a small shallow dish of fresh water in case it
wants to drink on it's own. I find it helpful to lightly
spray their salads prior to feeding.

Handling it too much during it's acclimation period will
only prolong it's settling in and possibly worse.

Ok, got a ton of babies and eggs to tend to beside my
zoo as I'm usually pretty busy at this time of year for all
these Qs & As so I better tend to the business at hand.

Later,
John

thanks, man.
i should correct recomendations are sometimes 20-40ml's or higher depending on what you are tubing and what for since i mentioned his name.
thanks again.

John C.

I'm assuming that your either a veterinarian, or a very strong herp enthusiast. However, I'm allmost 99.9% positive that my female bearded dragon is egg bound. I'm taking her to a vet soon. I was wondering that if the case comes, to where surgicle practices will be considered, how much would something like that cost. Price dosen't matter much, but I would just like to know to be prepared. Also, I've separarted her from the male and I was wondering if I could use an electrolight supplement on her, in the meantime to boost her activity. Shes very blooted and after palpating, she definately has eggs still in her. I work in a veterinarian hospital and I have some knoledge about antibiotics. I was wondering if I could use "Nutri-Cal" in a very small dossage? By the way I'm very sorry to post this in the Uro forum, but I saw your post and assumed that you might be a vet.
-Paul

It seems your doing good already. Shes laying eggs. Your conditions are good. But your nesting is off. Nest boxes dont work unless they are nearly perfect. Whats simpler is to give her alot (1-2 ft)of dirt to lay in. Heat one side and then make one side moist and the other dry. Let it pick and she shouldnt have any problems.... hopefully. It has worked for me tons of times for every single reptile that i have bred. Plus you dont have a male so you dont have to dig up the eggs (the hard part) hahaha.

You can only try it. What can it hurt? But stick the next box in there also and see which one she wants.

Good luck next time and cheers,
Sean