Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I am pretty sure that i saw that the eastern box turtle was added to the endangered list, but i can't find it on any lists. i work at a small pet store and people are constantly finding them and bringing them in wanting to know how to keep them. i would love to be able to show them something that says they are protected and they should put them back. i live in West Virginia.
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Thanks Dawn

In most states where they are native, it is illegal to collect them from the wild, or there are limits to the number that can be collected from the wild. Don't know about WV, but in PA it's illegal to have/collect any that weren't in possession before January, 2007. In MD you're allowed one WC, period (although unlimmited CB are allowed with a permit and you need proof of CB).

Explain that these turtles need a high population density to reproduce, and removing even one can dramatically decrease their ability to find another mate in the wild (they find each other by sight). If they want a box turtle, there are herp clubs that provide adoption opportunities and can help with care advice. Petfinder.com has box turtles for adoption from time to time.

I would assume, being a pet store, you'd have the contact information for your state wildlife agency? Give them a call to find the regs for your state.

Katrina
Link

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1.2 Eastern Muds - Fred, Ethel, Edith
0.1 Iguana - Tiffel
0.1 Bearded Dragon - Foster
Foster turtles: More than I'd like the husband to know about.

All,

Removing one will do no harm. One can be eaten by a predator or killed on the road or run over by a bulldozer. This idea that the removal of one adult animal will hurt the population is totally 100% false. It is propaganda from left wing academics and other perpetuators who have an agenda. There is no way the species could survive if that was the case and they would have long been extinct. As with all renewable resources, box turtles can be harvested at low numbers from many different populations and be fine. It is development and roads that are the major negative impacts to most herp species including box turtles.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

Box turtles as a population survive by being very long-lived. With a species that is long-lived and a high hatchling/juvenile mortality, every adult in the population counts. If you remove a 50 or even 20 year-old adult from a population, you are removing a huge breeding potential from that population. Box turtles are not aquatic turtles. Studies on turtle populations have shown that as little as a 2-5% decrease in population annually will lead to the eventual demise of that population. If predators and/or roads are aleady taking adult turtles, what does human collection do? Also, consider the wood turtle study mentioned in "The Terrible Turtle Trade" - human collection removed the entire wood turtle population over time. http://nytts.org/asia/twilliams.htm
Link

Mike,

Being a lowly hobbyist, I'm unable to speak to the long term population impact of removing a single box turtle. However, I am surprised that even you would be so prompt to totally disregard the potential for harm to a species that has CLEARLY suffered enormous harm from human encroachment and collection.

Also, your constance reference to wild herps as a "renewable resource" is really getting old. I prefer to think of wild herps as wild herps, not as a resource.

A few days ago, I "discovered" (based on a tip from a fellow hobbyist) a great locality and had an incredible afternoon and evening finding 2 boxies, 2 TX horned lizards, 2 gopher snakes, a patchnose, a mojave, a blacktail, and an atrox. I REALLY wanted to post a field report with all the details, but didn't for ONE reason. That reason was YOU. I wanted to share the full experience with my fellow hobbyists, but I kept picturing you heading out to that area the next time you received an "acquisition order" for a "resource".

Daryl,

I live in the world of facts and reality. The fact is that many box turtles that are collected are displaced animals. They are roaming because their habitat has been destroyed. The opinion and conjecture spewed forth by both academia and home schooled conservationists’ needs to be squashed in its tracks. We live in a world of facts. Any intelligent person can deduct that the removal of low numbers of any species will cause virtually no harm. If it does cause harm then that population is in deep trouble and probably doomed so collection should be encouraged so we can preserve that population in captivity. Then when we get around to stopping or modifying the true destructive forces of development and roads we will have the animals to reintroduce. Again, I am not saying that over collection should be allowed but low impact collection will not harm populations.

The terms I used are correct. Please check your wildlife science, wildlife management and natural resource conservation text books for verification on that. While you have those books pulled out, why don’t you read up on population biology and wildlife management so we can further discuss how best to manage herp populations in the future?

I am sorry you felt you were unable to share with everyone but don’t blame that on me. My “acquisition” service saves human lives, contributes to scientific research and fights cancer. It also provides specimens for captive propagation. I know that is not as important as you’re sharing but please try and see the greater good of what I do.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

"My “acquisition” service saves human lives, contributes to scientific research and fights cancer."

LOL! Don't forget, you're fighting poverty, too!

Comments from the peanut gallery?

Yes, snakes I have collected have been used for human anti-venom, dog anti-venom and cancer research.

Anyomore ignorant comments?

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

That should read "anymore" not "anyomore". Spelling error. At least I admit when I am wrong or make mistakes not like many on the forums.

Have a nice evening,

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

"The fact is that many box turtles that are collected are displaced animals. They are roaming because their habitat has been destroyed."

Funny, many of the box turtles I've encountered seem to be moving within their given territory, whether a road bisects that tract of territory or not.

I'm sure your aware that the mere touching of a wild box turtle, in particular the western box turtle "group", and subsequently causing it to pee in defensive response can actually be a death sentence to the animal? There's some interesting papers on it.

The only thing you've said on this forum so far that I can actually agree with you on is this statement...

"It is propaganda from left wing academics and other perpetuators who have an agenda."

The funny thing is that if you look into NM regs almost EVERY reason for a protected species in this state is listed as commercial collection.

BTW, hope you've got the proper licenses for NM herp collection as an out-of-stater/"acquisition services" collector. Otherwise that's a violation of NMDG&F regs and possible Lacey Act violation (ewww...that last one is FEDERAL!)

Being in the informative mood that I be in currently, I'll even point you into the correct direction, not that I didn't do so already when you posted to another forum a 14 months ago...

New Mexico Administrative Code, Title 19: Natural Resources and Wildlife, Chapter 35: Captive Wildlife Uses, Part 10: Protection for Amphibians and Reptiles
You'll have to contact NMDG&F for bag limit/possession/collection numbers

>>>I'm sure your aware that the mere touching of a wild box turtle, in particular the western box turtle "group", and subsequently causing it to pee in defensive response can actually be a death sentence to the animal? There's some interesting papers on it.

I'd never heard that. Makes since though. Now I feel guilty about the two out of three that have peed on my son in the last few weeks. At the time, I thought it was funny. Luckily, it rained before and after both peeing incidents. Hopefully they were able to rehydrate.

Chris,

I would be very interested to see these "papers" that you have or have seen.

Quote:
I'm sure your aware that the mere touching of a wild box turtle, in particular the western box turtle "group", and subsequently causing it to pee in defensive response can actually be a death sentence to the animal? There's some interesting papers on it.

Please provide citations backing this up.

Most cold-bloodied and warm-bloodied animals urinate as a defense mechanism, however, I cannot find one on "Western Box Turtles" that exhibit this behavior. I would appreciate you listing thje citations,

Thanks,

Randal Berry

I don't have any info on this. However, it makes sense to me.

Two of the three desert boxies I've removed from the road in the last couple of weeks peed A LOT. I thought it was hilarious since my older son was the victim (does that make me a bad dad?). If they had done that during, or at the onset, of a drought period they might have had a tough time re-hydrating (if they rely on water instead of just moisture from their food). Luckily, it rained heavily after each encounter.

Again, this is JUST my personal observation.

That talked about this in regards to desert tortoises, but I don't know of any actual studies.
Max
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"How the hell do you find a Heloderma in a snowstorm?"