Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I was at the Sam Noble History Museum in Norman, Oklahoma and in the "kids' room" there are a few herp tanks. The snake labeled bullsnake struck me more as a gopher snake. I don't know if this picture is good enough for you guys to tell. I was very tempted to inform them of the error, but I figured it would be a waste of time. Plus, I'm no expert.

head looks like a bull to me, but i'm no expert either.
nate

n/p

agreed-looks to be deserticola or catenifer/deserticola integrade to me
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"with head raised regally,and gazing at me with lidless eyes,he seemed to question with flicks of his long forked tongue my right to trespass on his territory" Carl Kauffeld

I believe skronkycongs pic is a bullsnake, judging on its blockier head. I was giving a comparison pic of a gopher!

That'a Great Basin Gopher. That pattern says deserticola all the way. From what I can see in the photo, good looking snake, but then again, I never met a Pit I didn't like.

reako45

yeah the dark connected pattern kinda made me think pretty basin but the head structure looked bull, or ticked off gopher. I deal with gophers all the time herping but have only dealt with captive bulls and they all seemto be way thicker all around especially in the head than gophers. But now that you brought up pattern you made me think Ihave no idea.

I do know its hard to type with a big black pine on your shoulders lol
nate

Yeah, the head is sorta blocky looking when compared to San Diegos and Pacifics. I've seen a few deserticolas and Sonorans w/ rather blocky shaped heads. Of course, the snake in the picture could be a Great Basin/Bull cross.

reako45

My local natural history museum has given up on subspecies level identification of their stock.

The reason - when I talked to them, they said almost every herp they get is donated or rescued.
Many are mis-identified when they get them.
Species level is all they concern themselves with as subspecies can be difficult in some cases to determine without locality data.

Both their gopher snakes are clearly pac gophers - and are just identified as Pine/Bull/Gopher snake - Pituophis melanoleucus

They have about 4 or 5 california kingsnakes (kept together, btw - well fed adults) labeled simply as Common Kingsnake - L getula

Their Southern Alligator Lizard collection looks to contain both California and San Diego subspecies.

I have no idea what subspecies their zonata is, it is always hidden.

They just don't care about subspecies level of identification.
I suspect many small museums don't care about precise identification unless they have a biologist on staff who is a herp nut him or herself.

They don't even have their western pond turtles identified to the subspecies level, and they regularly breed them - supplying other museums with hatchlings. I think they are all northwestern, but I'm not positive.
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11.14 L. getula californiae (Cal. King)
2.3 L. getula nigrita (MBK)
1.0 L. getula floridana (Brooksi)
1.0 Pantherophis guttatus guttatus (Corn)
0.1 Pituophis catenifer catenifer (Pacific gopher)
4.2.14 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata - (Cal. Alligator Lizard)

SOME museums may not care but I would be hesitant to say most. I work at the NC Museum of Natural Science (Living Collections Herpetologist) and we take great pride in correct identification of animals. In fact we use locale appropriate plants whenever possible in all of our exhibits as well. Using broad statements like that is misleading. Many museum employees devote lots of time (including holidays and weekends) to insure that the animals presented are in good health and properly displayed.

Phil Bradley

It's been my understanding that gophers & bulls are essentially the same animal - just relatively recently split up by the newer generation of biologists (splitters as opposed to lumpers) trying to justify their existences & jobs. When I got my degree in the early 80s, gophers were bulls & bulls were gophers - although all we have here are Sonorans anyway. My point is, what a snake is depends mostly on what generation/era your schooling is in.