Reptile & Amphibian Forums

All,

Since we already know from the numerous posts on the forums that the hobbyists who are against the sale of wild caught herps would stab ANYONE who sells wild caught herps in the back if it suits their agenda. What would happen if it came down to the collection of herps for personal use (wink wink) versus the picture takers? Would the picture takers stab the collectors in the back to make sure they would still be allowed to take pictures? Something to think about.

I have to run to the doctor. I have to get all these knives out of my back.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

I'm a picture taker. That's what I do for a living. You just pushed me over the edge. If they want to close Texas to commercial take I'm not going to fight it at all. I may even push to help get it done faster.

Don't go that far. Who would we get to collect the gravid Leptotyphlops we need for founder stock?

you can find those in my backyard under the rocks by the hot tub. It's just like a canned hunt.

BTW there was a Hog (along with a cnemi and solpugid) in my "other" backyard under all that cardboard I piled out back from the cabinets.

no post

So Joe, does that mean that if you want allow the State to stop commercial collection that you would be willing to also allow them to control what happens to any wild caught reptile and any off spring that are produced? If I were the State, that is where I would go with that line of thinking, otherwise how would they be able to control all the reptiles.

I think what OHI was saying was not a stab in the back to the picture takers, but more of a "who will say what? to get what they want" sort of thing. And, trust me, if I thought he was actually taking a shot at you I would be first in line to take a shot at him.

We all know what can happen once our rights start to be taken away. It will only snowball. We all know that some states do regulate what happens to offspring. If Texas does something like that, I could see how they might even get the Feds involved once another law is on the books that might be interpeted as interstate transportation of an animal that is regulated.

NOT TOO OUTRAGEOUS A THOUGHT, DON'T YOU THINK.

As for OHI, I Understand his plight but he should know that this should still be a united fight.

ECTimaeus

Good point Eric.

Randal Berry

We've told Mike (again and again) that we will not support any legislation that is not backed by data illustrating the need for said legislation. I'm not sure how anyone could argue with that, but argue he does.

They have data showing a large number of atrox and aquatic turtles (in the tens of thousands) being taken but instead of coming up with legislation that direction they instead are worried about those taken along the ROW... I do not have any more data then they do on this but would hazard a guess that there are less than a thousand animals taken total on the ROW each year by the herpers that are impacted by this new legislation.

lets just say it was a swing and miss...

Lance

Eric,

You are correct. My post was not a shot at Joe at all. I don't know how familiar everyone is with the FieldHerpForum but there are many folks over there who are against collecting for any reason. My "what if" scenario involves collectors versus picture takers. If there came a point where someone wanted to ban all collection would the "picture takers" stand up for their brothers, the collectors, or would they stab them in the back by supporting a ban on collection as long as it would still be legal to take pictures? This is a valid concern because many of the people who don't support the sale of wild caught herps (HCU supporters)have no problem throwing commercial folks under the bus as evident by the many posts to the forum bashing me.

And yes, Eric, we ALL do need to be united. That is exactly why I post and I post and I post. If HCU wants to unite everybody then why don't they have stronger language in their Constitution in regards to the sale of wild caught herps? Joe says he doesn't support any bans but yet he is President of a group that 1) continues to disrespect and bash me for valid points 2) does not support the sale of wild caught herps.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

>>>Joe says he doesn't support any bans but yet he is President of a group that 1) continues to disrespect and bash me for valid points 2) does not support the sale of wild caught herps.

Wrong. If there is data that clearly illustrates a need for legislation we will support it. Without the data, no support. Why don't you understand this concept?

I do totally understand that, Joe, and I agree. Yet you still have not expalined why one thing comes out of your mouth while the HCU Constitution says something else? I am talking about Resolution 2 to be clear.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

we do not support commercial collecting, period. That's our position.

I guess what you are saying is that you want to be able sell anything no matter what the data says.

We can not support that, and we will not support that. More importantly, the people that matter (TP&W and the legislators) will not allow that.

No absolutely not! If an animal is in need of protection so be it. I support it being listed. That is our only ammunition against development even though developers always find a way around that. But I do support captive propagation of Endangered and Threatened species in the private sector. Look to crocodile conservation for what I am talking about here.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

Gimme a break man....photographers stabbing private collectors in the back? Not happenin' man....I primarily take photographs of the herps I see, but occasionally if I find something I can't live without I have no hesitation with collecting it...this is done legally, under full compliance with AzG&F rules and regs...

The idea that herp photographers will turn on PRIVATE herp collectors is ludicrous...Often they are one and the same...Last I checked, even HH hasn't targeted the accumulation of photographic images of Tx native herps...Why would the same person that enjoys herp photography endanger another pursuit they enjoy? Such logic is folly....

C'mon Mike...I understand there are BIG differences between how you think things should be and how many here think they should be...but proposing that those that take pictures of herps and those that collect FOR PRIVATE USE are at odds with each other is a bit like saying one's left hand is looking to chop the right one off...Just not realistic...

Let's try to debate this issue from grounds that are debatable PLEASE....

-AzAtrox

I agree. As a fledgling amateur photographer and non-collecting field herper, I have no intent of ever again keeping any wild caught animal. However, that could change in a second if I found something truly unique or when my son's demonstrate the desire and maturity to keep herps.

Also, I will always FULLY support captive breeding and education/research programs. I will always want to defend their interests and my ability to donate animals to them as I see fit. Some may recall that before releasing my one and only alterna, I first asked around about donating it to any locality breeders needing to complete a locality pair.

Joe,

I hope you are working collecting into your agenda as well. Collecting is just as legitimate as picture taking in the herping scene. I agree that commercial collecting should be banned. I define commercial collecting as collecting wild animals for the purpose of resale. I do NOT consider commercial collecting to be collecting herps for the purpose of breeding commercially. The latter is a very valid and important pursuit that ought to be protected. I for one, will not support any organization that refuses to protect that right.

I am interested in hearing your thoughts about this. There is more to herpers rights than just the right to photograph.

Protecting the right to collect non-commercially is VERY MUCH a part of HCU's agenda. I think that everyone involved agrees with you that captive breeding (commercial or non-commercial) is very important, beneficial, and completely separate from commercial collecting.

I don't collect, but would gladly donate breeder stock to responsible breeders who could turn a few wild caught animals into dozens of captive stock to diminish the demand for wild caught animals. If they happen to make a few bucks for their efforts, it just demonstrates that they are doing something right. Captive breeding is hard work (I know, because I tried and failed) and those that excel at it deserve to be compensated and supported.

We will never succeed in stopping the exploitation of wild caught animals unless we first are able to satisfy the market demand for captive herps with captive bred stock.

protect the right to photograph any species or collect non-protected species (hunters rights)

protect the right to breed native or exotic species in captivity (breeders rights)

Lance

no worries there.

Posted by: Joe Forks at Tue Jul 31 15:09:20 2007 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

I'm a picture taker. That's what I do for a living. You just pushed me over the edge. If they want to close Texas to commercial take I'm not going to fight it at all. I may even push to help get it done faster.

I hope the do same thing in Florida's Everglades many of the snake/herp collectors are environmental rapists.

Please think about your statement. If I understand you correctly you want ALL reptile collecters banned because "many are environmental rapists". There are "many" who poach fish and mammals. Do you think all fishing and hunting should be banned because "many" people poach them? "Many" people poach plants, shells, rocks and minerals as well. Should we ban ALL those activities too? Or should we monitor the resources instead, determine sustainability and allow for these activities as long as they are done with methods and in volumes that don't harm the survival of the resource?

the biggest environmental rapists. we should ban urban sprawl!

Ummm, YES

anyone rember the Stacy dam

Stab in the back? Can we keep things civil?
They're starting a club, and you disagree with their opinion. Don't join. This is not difficult. Who do you serve coming on here and stirring things up with your insendiary comments?

While I'm at it, perhaps we should all stop responding to these type of comments. (I guess that makes me a hippocrit) If we don't argue than ohi doesn't get the attention he/she apparantly craves. Just a thought.

DAN

Dan,

I have been quite civil even after being hammered by HCU supporters who just don't get it and then choose to turn into smarty pants. I have also made many valid points which are getting ignored. Please read back through all my posts. The point of some of my posts is the FACT that HCU is not uniting everybody. We need to be united to win this fight yet HCU wants to exclude conservation minded commercial interests by having a Constitution that says they don't support commercial interests. That is NOT uniting everybody. I realize that we ALL need to be united. They apparently don't. That is why I keep trying to talk some sense into them. This is America last time I checked and I have the right to voice my opinion. You don't have to agree with me but you do need to be respectful to your fellow herpers and many on this forum haven't.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

Mike,
You can't please everyone. As far HCU is concerned, that everyone is, well, YOU. We are not changing our position on commercial collecting. We do not support it. But on the other hand we will not support legislation that is not backed by data that clearly illustrates the need for said legislation.

You are going to have to agree to disagree and leave it at that.

Joe,

Fair enough. But I am not the only person who disagrees with Resolution 2. The others are not willing to come on here and debate with you guys on it and get BBQed. I also don't believe for a second that there wasn't any room at the Inn for the conservation minded commercial folks. If you guys wanted to accommodate legitimate commercial pursuits you could have. This is give and take and in order to unite everybody this should have been done but you guys chose not to do so for what ever reason. I hope it doesn't come back to haunt you. I must say I am extremely disappointed that all the conservation folks couldn't come together under one umbrella.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

Mike raises a very important point. As evidence, the TP&W White List specifically limits the numbers of many species that may be held by individuals. In other words, NO CAPTIVE BREEDING either! TP&W is having a great laugh at our expense as they read and record all these responses to destroy our interest. The point about no wild caught is mute because no captive breeding will be permitted because of TP&W's age old argument that there is no way for their employees to know if an animal was captive breed or wild caught.

We all have a lot of interest to protect, lets try not to get as pious as HH.

The recent raid in TN on venomous should be enough to alert you to where TP&W is heading. Everybody has been posting on road collecting, it doesn't matter if you cannot legally own the animals they are trying to eliminate!

As has been argued before undisturbed habitats on private land better served the public interest than moving collecting off very isolated stretches of public roads. But remember where our argument ultimately resides, you can't legally own it once you have picked it up or bought it from a friend. Laws that prohibit possession need to be repealed and blocked.

Re: law enforment a distinghing between cb and wc.
IMHO there are a couple things involved. How lucrative is it to launder wc vs. breeding cb? Can hobbyists be viewed with any degree of trustworthyness by law enforcement?
Nowadays it is well known that most of the popular colubrids are easily and cheaply captive bred. Some species are definitly easier and more profitable to collect. These are usually either very common or very difficult to breed. Various small lizards are much easier to collect than to breed. Boelen's pythons are probably easier to collect than to breed. But with most kings, milks, rats, pits and hognose, basicly all the popular colubrids it is much more cost effective to breed them. For those species only a very small percentage of hobbyist prefer to work with wild caught founders.
As far as trust I am of the opinion that the lack of definition between commercial and personal take does more to hurt us all than any other factor. This is not to say that all commercial take is detrimental to populations but the current situation is such that most wildlife agencies think all of us are out to collect and sell. Knowledge that only a small percent are actually doing that benifits not only personal take hobbyists but it can also benifit commercial collecters because it may turn out that there are much fewer commercial collecters involved in the hobby than is currently believed. IMHO this is one of the most important functions of HCU, to help determine how much and what types of activities are actually going on. Taking the lead in this can help establish trust between wildlife agencies and herpers leading to better regulations that ultimatly help us all and help the herps.

no post

HCU isn't trying to include the round-up folks or the turtle soup folks either. Our desire is to unite non-commercial herpers and convince lawmakers and regulators that non-commercial herping should be supported.

I've spoken with dozens of Texas politicians or their staffers and all but one have expressed a willingness to support non-commercial hobbyists. Not a single one has expressed any interest supporting commercial herping. In fact, several only came around to supporting non-commercial herping AFTER I made the distinction between commercial and non-commercial.

We are not out to get you or any other commercial collector. We just don't see it as part of our mission to protect you or any other commercial collector.

Stop trying to demand that HCU abandon their mission in favor of yours. You will be welcome to join, but you have no right to unilaterally dictate our policy

Eby,

That is exactly what I am worried about. YOUR INTERPERTATION of the commercial situation. You have a bias against it, not an objective point of you. Don't make me get started again. This is exactly what any one that sells a wild caught herp has to worry about. This is exatcly why I can't support HCU and you guys are sounding more and more like you can't be trusted.

Joe call off your boys. They are admitting pushing an agenda against commercial interests not just "not supporting". You see how easy it is to cross the line of activism?

I have good reason to be concerned with your group and so does anyone else that wants to have the right to sell a wild caught herp. You guys need to quit saying your not going to lobby against commercial interests because Eby just admitted he has. You guys are defintely trouble that's for sure.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

>>>You guys need to quit saying your not going to lobby against commercial interests because Eby just admitted he has. You guys are defintely trouble that's for sure.

What? When and how did I lobby against commercial interests?

When speaking with Austin folks, I've just clarified that most herpers are non-commercial in regard to wild caught animals. They LIKE that and tend to support us once they understand that fact.

You need to read Eby's post again.

"Our desire is to unite non-commercial herpers and convince lawmakers and regulators that non-commercial herping should be supported."

He said nothing about convincing them that commercial collection be banned.

"I've spoken with dozens of Texas politicians or their staffers and all but one have expressed a willingness to support non-commercial hobbyists."

Again... no mention of commercial here.

"Not a single one has expressed any interest supporting commercial herping."

Just a statement of fact.

"In fact, several only came around to supporting non-commercial herping AFTER I made the distinction between commercial and non-commercial."

No anti-commercial lobbying here... just clarification.

You maybe right. I am done debating the entire membership of HCU for this evening. If I did not comprehend the jist of what Eby was saying then I apologize for my error.

We all get ahead of our thoughts on occasion. I've certainly been guilty of worse at times.

n/p.

This has been my thought on the matter all along. I have tried to work with Mike, but he doesn't get it. Better fights are everywhere.
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Todd Hughes

Enough with the melodrama.

No one's out to get you, we just don't all share your agenda.

Well, not true at all.

HCU is going to start a free acquisition service to acquire herps for free for zoos, researchers and educators so they are directly trying to run ME out of business. This is specifically aimed at me because I post a dissenting opinion. Nice fellow herpers huh? Very Republican like.

Again, if any of you have been on the FieldHerpForum over the past few years you would know that there are a lot of picture takers that are against the collection of herps for any reason. There have been many arguements over there about this. So what I said is quite valid and true.

You folks on this forum have to wake up and realize that you are but a tiny portion of the people into herps and not the majority by a long shot. There are other opinions and many other herp people who never even read these forums. That is a fact.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

Dang it, sorry Mike. I will defer all thoughts from HCU members to you for your judgement, then get back to them. In the mean time, how's your club doin'?
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Todd Hughes

"HCU is going to start a free acquisition service to acquire herps for free for zoos, researchers and educators so they are directly trying to run ME out of business. This is specifically aimed at me because I post a dissenting opinion. Nice fellow herpers huh? Very Republican like.?

Yes, the HCU's inception and purpose is completely because of YOU.

"Again, if any of you have been on the FieldHerpForum over the past few years you would know that there are a lot of picture takers that are against the collection of herps for any reason. There have been many arguements over there about this. So what I said is quite valid and true."

Sure, and they all carry shiney knives.

"You folks on this forum have to wake up and realize that you are but a tiny portion of the people into herps and not the majority by a long shot. There are other opinions and many other herp people who never even read these forums. That is a fact."

A really tiny portion is (1), as in "singular", as in "the only", as in "no others" as in "no more than", as in "by yourself". That is a fact.

"HCU is going to start a free acquisition service to acquire herps for free for zoos, researchers and educators so they are directly trying to run ME out of business. This is specifically aimed at me because I post a dissenting opinion. Nice fellow herpers huh? Very Republican like."

I've been helping researchers & educators for free before I even met you. I always thought it was because I'm a nice guy, but I guess I was just trying to run you out of business.

Has it occurred to you that this service might be planned because it's a way for herpers to be part of positive progress?