Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Alvaro Garcia hatched this from an adherent male of his and a female I picked up at a pet store with very broad dark pattern elements.

Does this look like something already out there and named or something new?

Thanks.

I don't know But I like it . David of DS Reptile Rescue

Here is mom, I picked her up at a pet store for either $100 or $125, can’t remember as it took about 5 years for her to breed. I don't have any pictures of dad (Alvaro’s animal) but as I remember from some pics I saw a few years back he was sort of cinnamon like but adherent too. I think this was dad’s first clutch also (not sure) and that he was an import that came through RDR.

Here is the next weirdest sibling.

Here is one more like mom.

Here is the last of 4 standouts in this clutch, again with mom's wide dark pattern elements. There where also 4 fairly normal (but dark) siblings.

>>Here is the last of 4 standouts in this clutch, again with mom's wide dark pattern elements. There where also 4 fairly normal (but dark) siblings.
>>

Holy,..what the ....,that's just plain crazy!
Does daddy have the same copper colored head?/(yeah,call them copperheads ),because i don't see that mom has it..
Was pops a yb looking animal?..Or does he have his own distinct different look to him?

Whatever they are,they're freakin gorgeous.
Huge congrats to you Randy!
-----
Charles Glaspie

Thanks.

Unfortunately I didn't save any pictures of Alvaro's male and don't remember a ton of detail. I do think he had a fair amount of fading so maybe they get that from him. However, mom has an unusual head too as seen in the below link so maybe that is just the difference between hatchling and old adult.
Mom's Page

Thats a screamer!

Jared

Could be some kind of mystery gene, like in the crystals.

I say hold onto them, and if you can, breed a male back to the mother. (If the little abberant is a male)

See what comes of it.
-----
"What is man without the beasts?
If all the beasts were gone,
men would die from great loneliness of spirit.
For what happens to the beasts,
soon happens to men.
All things are connected."

-Chief Seattle (Duwamish Tribe)

That should have been an "aberrant" not "adherent" male. But I guess he did adhere a little too.

What a fascinating clutch!! I would love to see an entire clutch picture if that would be possible, including the normal-appearing babies? From what I can see, there must be more than one gene playing out here - likely both the mom and dad have something interesting... this is simply due to the variety of appearances you have in the same clutch...

Some almost look like some kind of granites but the very first one however almost looks like a burmese x ball python hybrid!!

Looks to me like you have a lot of work to do to figure this one out. Looks like that project fell in great hands for the job. Enjoy and certainly keep us posted how things are coming along. They look great and I'd sure take them all if I could!!

Regards,
Bristen.

>>Alvaro Garcia hatched this from an adherent male of his and a female I picked up at a pet store with very broad dark pattern elements.
>>
>>Does this look like something already out there and named or something new?
>>
>>Thanks.
-----
___________________________
www.RoyalGemReptiles.com

Funny you should mention the Burmese hybrid as I was just joking to Alvaro about that. Although a nice snake to people, mom is the most aggressive feeding ball python you are likely to ever see. She comes out of the box in full shed to get rats. I picked her up 6 years ago in a pet store and have no idea where she came from. I don't think she could really be a hybrid but it's something we will all have to watch out for going forward now that the cross was made this year.

Yes and the exact reason why I say that X like those should not be made, because they will slip threw the cracks a can be a threat to the Ball industry as a hole . And also like I have said for years ,that one of the next really big new things to come along would be from normal appearing animals . David of DS Reptile Rescue

That is the reason why ball pythons are so great to work with..for the most part, you know what you are going to get....than along comes a killer clutch like this and it makes you wonder if there are any limitations...

Similar to BHB's Chocolate and RI's super form of blood balls. There's also a couple of other similar projects that aren't "named" that will most likely be the same or a different lineage of the same mutation. Looks like the first one could be a cross between the two appearances? Hard to say without seeing the male though. The others you showed look like they may be exhibiting the female's genetics. GREAT looking hatchlings, I know you have been working on proving that girl for awhile so congratulations. The random spot on the first one's head is crazy. Thanks for posting the photos.

All of those snakes are SWEET!!! I really like the look sof the sibs. The mom looks kinda like the Chocholate balls BHB has been producing........

SWEET MAN!!

Looks like a great project keep us up dated and I would say you could name them I haven't seen anything exactly like them before.
-----
Vince Pramuk []__[]

I say breed them again and if they come out the same then it would be safe to name them even thou you haven’t proved out the offspring yet and by then you should be in a position to do so ,after all it only takes time and rats to get them ready . David of DS Reptile Rescue . PS. They are absolutely stunning and I’ll take all the ones you don’t need , and I do take in non feeders LOL.

Randy,

I know your interest in the whole genetics end of Ball breeding goes far beyond making money, so I really hope you have hit on something unique for yourself. (I hope you make alot of cash w/this too!!)

They look really different to me, I think you really may have something new?

This is what its all about... Its nice to see you can potentially walk into a pet store and walk out with something that, with alot of trial and error and alot of years, potentially is going to give you something unique and beautiful. That you dont neccesarily have to import ten thousand wild caughts a year, to hit something nice.

Randy, your like the old gold prospector who spends many years panning away until he finally pulls the big nugget up..

Congrats again!

~Alan

I can't claim a lot of credit. I only tried to breed her for 2 or 3 years and then I loaned her out hoping someone else would have better luck. Alvaro Garcia worked with her for the last 2 or 3 years and produced this clutch. She ate for me right off the bat so I never really though she was imported as an adult but I don't know why she took so long to produce.

I'm trying not to get too excited about them. First we need to prove if there is a viable and desirable super or at least nice combos. Mom isn’t really all that stunning by her self, at least compared with the rainbow of proven morphs out there. She is out for another breeding loan to either a lesser or a mojave this winter so hope to answer the question as to if it's part of the white snake complex or not. I actually wanted to ship her off to breed to a mojave when I first got her back before the super mojave was even produced but she looks enough different and ended up taking so long to produce so that probably wouldn’t have fastracked the mojave project even if I had worked it out.

Several have pointed out the chocolates as being similar. I don't really know much about them. Hopefully now that she decided to breed once she'll keep it up and we'll have some answers sooner rather than later.

I don’t have any plans to sell any from my part of the project until more are produced and I know more about the potential or lack there of. It doesn’t seem like it would be possible to fix a value at this time as the project could go either way.

Thanks for the encouragement everyone.

Untying this genetic puzzle should keep you busy for quite awhile, as it appears to me - from the looks of those babies, that there could very likly be more than one genetic variable going on?

I dont know Mr. Garcia, but I wish you both alot of luck and success with this project.

~Alan

Looks like a successful dinking project... Congrats

If thats just a dinker, give me about 20!

To me at least, it has the appearance that it might be something very special with alot of potential.

Randy,
CONGRATS!!!
Great looking animals.
The mother has some "phantomish" looking elements to her...and from the look of the darker sibs...the father may be a sable/ebony/chocolate type animal.
I personally think that those three (chocolate/sable/ebony) are very similar traits...if not merely different lines of the same trait.
Granite might also be a possibility.
Have you checked out RDR's super Granites yet?
Very NICE looking super....reminds me of TSKs Granite/Super Granite? Mojaves...very cool!
Makes me glad I stocked up on Granites!
(now I have to prove em out)

It is nice to see that your years of perseverance and persistance are finally paying off.
There needs to be more of this type of integrity in breeding.
I like the manner in which you introduced those beautiful hatchlings as well.
Rather than calling it something wonderful...you asked what other people's opinions were....and asked for feedback.
It is obvious to me that you are always looking to learn more.
And this clutch of babies surely answered a few...as well as raising new questions and opportunities to learn.
Kudos to you for that. GREAT LOOKING SNAKES TOO!!!

The OTHER subject...
As for the "Hybrid" issue that David brought up....

(This issue has nothing to do with Randy's awesome new baby Ball Pythons... but, I think it is an interesting subject nonetheless.)

I personally do not have a problem with hybrids.
SO LONG AS they are accurately represented.
Let's face it...none of the babies we produce will be going back to the wild. What we produce is for US to enjoy.
Breeding for hybrids is no worse than breeding color or pattern mutations....it adds another dimension to the excitement of the reptile hobby.

Having said that...I do also like to see pure forms (even locale specific forms) of naturally colored/patterned animals represented in captivity.
I love variety.
Although I do not have any problems with some hybridization, I do NOT think that it is wise to hybridize animals that are endangered/threatened or even just poorly represented in captivity.
And do not like to see hybrids between animals that could cause confusion...for example crossing colubrids like greeri with thayeri. As it might be difficult to differentiate the offspring from either "pure blood" parent. (and difficult for a future owner to say what they REALLY own.)
Again, this goes back to responsible breeding and honest representation...regardless of market values.

Crossing Ball Pythons with womas, burmese, carpets, and bloods etc. seems fine to me....and quite interesting...as it opens new doors.

But, I would rather not breed Balls with Angolan Pythons, or Indian Pythons with Burmese Pythons.
Just my personal opinion...
Does that make sense?

Curious to hear the input and opinions of others...
(perhaps we need to start a new thread on the issue?)

Harlin Wall - WALL TO WALL REPTILES!
970-245-7611

Randy,
By the way...
It does look like it might possibly be something new.
Let me know if you are planning to let any of them go.
I might be interested in a pair...
Harlin Wall - WALL TO WALL REPTILES!
970-245-7611