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Daytona show was fun and a pleasure to meet many of you but my Northern Pine search continues. Actually poor showing in variety and quantity of pituophis at this show compared to Elaphe and Lampropeltis but much fun was still had by my wife and I.

We did luck out in acquiring a neat pet carrier though with its use originating in the South. We noticed many other herpers roaming around with one as well. Very popular to say the least.

Rich Hebron

And Howie sold all of them. Beautiful animals.
dB

Thats odd, when we spoke he mentioned he only new where one of the adults locale was believing the other was from North Carolina. At least that is what one person had told me at his booth. Actually, there was not one person selling at the show that had enough info. on locale data for me to feel confident in purchasing any. Another was they were (although nice)not typical looking of what I use to keep when I lived up North more or less reminding of the many specimeins I have seen from further south of their range.

Glad to hear though he had a good day selling Sunday afternoon. He appeared to still have many left (I believe all of them) when I saw them that morning. Did he have to drop his price to $25 each like all the other pit sellers. Terrible when I saw others starting to do that. Not a good sign of their current popularity.

My search continues...

I got this male CB02 from Strikers last year at Daytona. He started out looking exactly like the cream colored hatchlings that he was selling this year but he's turned a nice bone white color as he matures. This guy is huge for his age and is thriving...I wouldn't hesitate to buy from them again.
Chris

Chris, thats a very nice looking pine. Did you see many other pituophis at the show this year?

Rich Hebron

I saw plenty of bulls...normals, hypos, hybinos, etc. There were also a few red bulls (some redder then others). I saw some northern pines and several black pine hatchlings as well as two pairs of adults offered for sale. I also saw a couple deppei (I heard that the jani were bought up by other breeders before the show opened). Glades Herp had some adult gophers for sale as well. I saw some other assorted pine morphs at a few tables including Mark Bell's.
It seemed like there were more pits then last year. I would have liked to see more but the selection wasn't too bad.
Chris

Chris, I am also a regular at another forum and came across your addition of this same pic as a reference of Craig Trumbower's line.

http://www.[bleep]/pituophis/messages/11.html

Actually though neither of these breeders have denied or supported your claim of this herp actually being of a NJ line but it still looks nice.

Rich Hebron

Howie has been pretty meticulus about where he got his breeders from. If you can't trust him on this you need to throw out the entire locality concept as its mostly based on trust.

"Sun Coast Herp also had them with good documentation that went back to legally collected animals.

Curious, why would it be so wrong for myself to be even more meticulous in what I keep? As I stated briefly in my earlier comment. When I did approach his area and inquired I was given a straight answer on one of the adults but not on the other. I think many fail to realize the locale in question has been off limits for quite sometime. Seeing how market trends have changed so dramatically since then many could have very well given up on producing these. Lets face it, these are not high dollar snakes. I would think very few if any stuck it out with pines that long. If a few did, I would be more than happy to hear from them.

Actually though on another note my preference far exceeds just the locale as I am also looking for particulars in the actual herp as well. Thats fine that many people go to shows to purchase herps, but myself I actually go to pick up herps I have already purchased.

I look forward in discussing locality with the two individuals you have mentioned but just saying one has locality is alot different in them providing the data. Do you yourself know offhand where their herps originated from? Many can give me a name but these named individuals may just give names as well. Some have as I have been looking for info. all year. I traced one name back who told me he did mix NC pines with his NJ stock many years ago.

I sure hope locality specifics has not been given up by all herpers. I would be more then happy to hear from both these individuals in regards to specifics on their breeders so that I know (at least) not all of the Ocean City labeled Northerns I have come across are from the same source as well. Now that would really suck!!!!!

Thanks, Rich Hebron

You most definitely have every right to be as selective as you desire when it comes to determining locality "data" on these animals. Its just that I know Howie and that his animals are as traced to NJ stock as any out there. I only posted in the interest of stopping misinformation. That being said I've yet to see anyone offer any type of credible "data" to support the locality status of their stock. Seems to me this breeding/marketing strategy relies heavily on ones view of another breeder's reputation. Perhaps I'm the only one who sees this as subjective but calling this kind of information "data" seems gracious to me.

"Data" as I use it is basically meant in a generic sense for traceable/recordable info. I have some duality in my profession as being an Accountant as well as a System's Programmer. The word get's used much by me. When it comes to this specific situation I am referring to people's/facility names. All I do is trace them back. Many a boid keeper can actually do this with some lines back to specific zoo stock.

I have yet to find anyone who can provide me with such information when it comes to Northern Pine snakes. Not saying it does not exist. I have though contacted the people listed in my threads with a few giving me a name of someone they acquired their herps from but as of yet not one of these people have come through with anymore more info. then another name. Be surprised on dates when some say they acquired their animals and from who. How about one line that stated to me descendants of a WC female in 1990. Of course a mistake somewhere in remark. Needless to say I go no further with such people.

I did send an e-mail to Howie in regards to his line to get some clarification and anxiously await his response as this info. I received at the show could very well have been misunderstood. I will also contact Schmidt as well and see where his line originated from.

Trust is something I put into what I can verify. That's data that I can trace back and contact for details. I personally like to know the history of most of the herps I keep. Now with my morphs, well, who knows!!

That's interesting. I sold 2 clutches of locality Northern pines for 50.00 each in Daytona. I sold out on pits and everything else I brought. John Meltzer

John, you sold out because your reputation and the quality of animals you sold makes them desirable. By the way, I purchased seven animals from you myself. Thanks

This local stuff really is fun to watch. The truth be known, probably most of the northern pines on the market are NJ stock. They were a main stay on the Philedelphia Reptile Exchange Price list in the 60's and 70's, and even back then they only sold for around $60.00 And of course, if one is going to catch a wild caught pine, it is more likely to be found in NJ then anywhere else in there range! It is funny how some have taken the position on this forum that they are the "authority on if the animal is local specific" and if you don't have there blessings then the animals are suspect. Even if the animimals are traced back to "zoo stock" does not guarantee the purity of the animals. The practices of the zoos in the fifties and sixties was not as pure as many have assumed! That is one reason I doubt the validity of any LA pines on the market as many of them have been traced to "zoo" stock! The only sure fire way to have "specific location" is go catchem yourself...but then you have to confess to illegal animals. Now, if you are catching illegal animals, what makes you think that I'm going to trust your word...already addmitted that your a poacher! Look, if your happy with the animal and it appears to be what it is, then it is what it is. Personally I would rather have northern pines from some place other then NJ, then you have something really unique....IMHO!!!!

Thanks! What did you buy? Take care. John

I agree with much that you post but I would still like info. as to the origin on many of these herps. I am not only doing this just with the Northerns, but have done this with blotched kings, yellow rats, jasper county corns, yorba linda pacific gophers, white oak gray rats as well as everglades rats. My list contunues as I am getting out of all the high ends and most morphs. There will always be some there but I miss the times of seeing many of these herps in the wild.

My wife and I hike alot. Okeefeenokee, Everglades, Payne Prairie and many other places in Florida as well as out of Florida. Since I began my herp awarenes with NJ herps I would like to get NJ herps from areas I visited in the 60's and 70's. Think getting pines info. from that area is difficult. Took two years on Eastern Chains ,out of there, before I started getting good info. Actually great info.

I believe now days the truley unigue herps are what I use to see in the wild. How many people really care about such inexpensive snakes these days? Most would not give someone the time of day for many of what I seek, as the monetary value is insignificant for them.

To me it is a great hobby. Part of it is in the background info. on the herps I acquire. Funny thing is, many state how easy it is to sell all their herps at a show. Thats a great thing as shows are good for getting us all together to meet and socialize. Now days though many herpers I meet only talk to me about sales when we chat at the shows. Nothing wrong with the bucks as rodent expenses are high when you buy all your rodents frozen as I do. Myself, I guess my ways are ok as I no longer have to do shows except for delivery purposes. Gives me the free time to make friends.

I'll stick with my way as I find it more fulfilling.

Rich Hebron

>>This local stuff really is fun to watch. The truth be known, probably most of the northern pines on the market are NJ stock.

Correct. However, NOT all of them came from there. So, would you rather err on the side of caution and call them generics if you don't KNOW that they aren'y or would you rather err on the side of misrepresentation if they do have some other blood in them? I perfer caution to misrepresentation. I wish everyone did. I know you probably do, too, but not everyone does. Most black pine snakes came from one county, but nobody I have ever heard claims to have that locality now...lol.

> it is more likely to be found in NJ then anywhere else in there range!

Yeah, but they can be pretty common in parts of NC and SC as well. SC still allows collection, too, if I am not mistaken. I might be incorrect, though.

> It is funny how some have taken the position on this forum that they are the "authority on if the animal is local specific" and if you don't have there blessings then the animals are suspect.

Well, I haven't noticed that (but that might be because I am in that group...lol). I have noticed people believing that they are the authority on THEIR animals. That is how it should be. Should anyone know more about your snakes than you? To put it another way, I could care less if anyone else trusts a line I don't or doesn't trust a line I do. (If I respect them or not for it may or may not be irrelevant, but is not the subject of this thread.) What matters is if I trust the line I have or not. If I don't trust it enough for it to be in my colony, that is of my concern. Is it wrong for me to honestly give my opinion on it? Only with we live in a Commie country....lol. Finally, secrecy is always suspect. I won't go into that because it should be blatantly obvious as to why....lol. (It is also the basis of tyranny, but that is for another forum completely. ) The sad part is that most people DON'T know much about the herps they keep.

> Even if the animimals are traced back to "zoo stock" does not guarantee the purity of the animals. The practices of the zoos in the fifties and sixties was not as pure as many have assumed! That is one reason I doubt the validity of any LA pines on the market as many of them have been traced to "zoo" stock!

Sorry, but I don't know who you are since a screen name doesn't tell me anything, so I may be off base here, but I don't think you are very familiar with what you are talking about here. Most "zoo stock" ruthveni are MUCH newer WC than the 50's and 60's. Matter of fact, they are a couple of DECADES newer than that. Check out the studbook before you jump to conclusions.

Read some of the earlier threads and you'll see that I don't trust all zoo stock ruthveni for various reasons (explained in thew earlier threads), but many of the studbook ones can be trusted in a lot further depth many of the ones in the private sector. To believe otherwise, in my opinion, is just hogwash.

> The only sure fire way to have "specific location" is go catchem yourself...but then you have to confess to illegal animals.

I hope you are referring to northerns in most states and not ruthveni where most zoo stock comes from. If not, check your state laws....lol.

> Look, if your happy with the animal and it appears to be what it is, then it is what it is.

Yep, that's my theory on wives, too: If it looks good, that is all that counts. I mean, who wants one with any background or personal meaning from before you marry them? Eye Candy for me!

Obviously that is a joke. The Evil Incarnate would kill me if she read that post....lol. The point is that "what it is" is definied by the keeper. Someone might like looks, while another likes locality, etc. Just because you don't think locality is as important as Rich (or I or anyone) do, that doesn't make it less important to Rich (or me or anyone).

> Personally I would rather have northern pines from some place other then NJ, then you have something really unique....IMHO!!!!

Yeah, I, too, would LOVE a pair of locality NC ones, but the only ones I know of with data sufficient to satisfy me are in NC in a research program that can't legally ship any out-of-state to the private sector. I hope to find a legal way to do it one day...lol.

Let me wrap up saying that we do live in a 1984-style culture. If anyone says something for long enough, it will be believed. The doubts will be forgotten, and the bloodline will become unverifiable (since it never was anyway), but most people will believe it because they think it must have been verifiable years ago since it is still said today.

Want proof? How many of you remember that the Love's Candycane corns are hybrids? ...or that albino Kenyans are hybrids? ...or that albino speckled kings have some slendida in them naturally? ...or that... I won't bother to go on since we won't remember it anyway....LMAO. Sorry, I'm in a paranoid mood today. Watch out for the BLACK HELICOPTERS!!!!!!

KJ

Agree with you completely KJ. Would not take away anyone's right to seek and buy what one wants and is secure in purchasing. Because a state may permit collecting of an animal is not an endorsement that the animal is common, nor the restriction of collecting an animal is and endorsement that it is rare. I agree that if one doesn't know where the animal came from, then he need not to represent it as a specific locale, but a generic. I do not have a problem when one says "this is a hell of nice northern pine and scale counts and characteristics indicate northern pine. I'm only saying, (based on 47 years in herping) that the only SURE WAY of KNOWING a locale specific is catching it yourself and then I KNOW where it came from. Other then that, I just must trust in the person who's claiming it...and we all know that herper's and fisherman have something in common! LOL By the way KJ....Dan P, not hiding from anyone.

As far as the ruthveni, email me and I will be glad to furnish you the information of a very reputable zoo, who though they will not admit that they polluted the ruthveni, but they won't deny it either. I know a curator of one of the zoos that recieved the hybrids and it caused quite stink at the time.

Of course all of us oldtimers, have our own way of thinking about things and most of us would say an okeetee corn is local specific, but that is not todays way of thinking. To most it means a color pattern.

Also, I too say the LA pines at the show.... IMHO don't believe they were....those snakes where just too pretty to be LA pines.

Yeah, the two "LA" (stands for Los Angeles?? and Los Angeles makes me think polluted...) pines I saw were definitely something...different.
dB

I've had people try to tell me that there were two different species. One was the Louisiana Pinesnake and the other was the LA Pinesnake. I never could figure that one out, but they were adamant about it...lol.

>> Because a state may permit collecting of an animal is not an endorsement that the animal is common, nor the restriction of collecting an animal is and endorsement that it is rare.

You said a mouthful there....lol. Sadly, it is completely true!

> I do not have a problem when one says "this is a hell of nice northern pine and scale counts and characteristics indicate northern pine.

I agree. I was just sticking to the main point of this thread concerning locality and ignoring most of the side-line stuff, I guess. I had MY blinders on.

> I'm only saying, (based on 47 years in herping) that the only SURE WAY of KNOWING a locale specific is catching it yourself and then I KNOW where it came from.

Yeah, I see your point and know what you mean....except in places like Jasper County, SC, or Tallahassee, FL, where you can't trust the locality even if you do catch it. There have been WAY too many released animals in those area for me to completely trust ANY of them even if I caught the animal in the wild myself. Shameful in my opinion. This is why I feel breeding localities pure in captivity (and not misrepresenting anything) is still important in today's herp arena.

BTW, I wasn't singling you out for anything in my forum post, of course. Nothing personal meant and I hope you (and anyone else reading it) didn't take it as such.

> Other then that, I just must trust in the person who's claiming it...and we all know that herper's and fisherman have something in common! LOL

Haahaahaahaa. Let me tell you about the 22' Val Verde bullsnake we found...lol.

> By the way KJ....Dan P, not hiding from anyone.

Didn't mean to sound like you were. It was demonstrating the ignorance on my part. I just can't keep up with the new way since the emails are hidden. I used to remember people by theiremail since that meant more, but not anymore in these forum structures. Besides, I'm not so vain or arrogant to think that most people know who "KJUN" or "KJ" or even "KJ Lodrigue, Jr." is....lol.

>>As far as the ruthveni, email me and I will be glad to furnish you the information of a very reputable zoo, who though they will not admit that they polluted the ruthveni, but they won't deny it either. I know a curator of one of the zoos that recieved the hybrids and it caused quite stink at the time.

I don't need it (but thnks for the offer). I know it happens, so I believe you. The "zoo stock" most of us talk about is from the few animals that were collected in Louisiana around the early 80's (give or take a year). Reichling has done an honorable job with the studbook and should be commended. These are the ones I feel I can trust a little more. Stuff from pre-Reichling??? Man, I don't even WANT to think about accidently getting those. I dodn't know if they are impure, but I don't know they are pure, either...lol. I don't even consider them when I talk about zoo stock ruthveni. Thank goodness they are so rare and few and far between!

I've heard of studbook animals being used to make hybrids, but I've never heard of a hybrid making it into the studbook. That does give me a little confidence. It may not satisfy everyone, but it does me. I'm usually MUCH more anal about this that others....lol.

>>Of course all of us oldtimers, have our own way of thinking about things and most of us would say an okeetee corn is local specific, but that is not todays way of thinking. To most it means a color pattern.

I'm not an "old timer," but I agree with you 100%. Same goes for Outer Banks kings (island animals ONLY!), scissor gap cal-kings, Yuma kings, and the rest.

>>Also, I too say the LA pines at the show.... IMHO don't believe they were....those snakes where just too pretty to be LA pines.

I don't go to Daytona because I'm not a big fan of buying stuff like that "on the spot" except from a few breeders I trust. (OK, so I'm more lax on morphs than locality stuff....lol, but I'm still as careful as I can be not to get hybrids: morphs or not.) Besides, I'd probably shoopt someone after seeing a dozen different people calling Louisiana pine hybrids pure snakes!

...and a pure Louisiana pinesnake is the prettiest snake in existence!
KJ

Damn, and all that work I just spent with getting Jasper county corns as well as white oak gray rats from Tallahassee. Now I have to concern myself with released herps messing with the bloodlines. I was hoping kingsnakes and birds would get the naive newbies before any damage could have been done!! Should I just feed them to my Appalachicola kings I picked up or just throw in the towel on all this locale stuff. Go back to my morphs releasing all these everglade rats on my next trip to Texas and maybe establish a new bairdi population somewhere that exhibits a high yellow tinge?

Hahaha, this has become a waste of time!!!! I'll list everyting where they were collected from and let everyone debate what they are. It is apparent that everything is destined to get muddied overtime.

Anyway, I am off to go collecting some burms and nile monitors down in South Florida. I hear the cobras are not moving around much these days so it should be pretty safe walking thru the underbrush.

:So, would you rather err on the side of caution and call them generics if you don't KNOW that they aren'y or would you rather err on the side of misrepresentation if they do have some other blood in them?

I think the main point of the prev post was that unless you caught em you should you err on the side of caution and call them generics. Ultimately when asigning locality data we are all making a judgment call. Some of us however, not mentioning names, just take the position that their judgment is better than the rest. I personally take ANY and ALL claim of locality data, even mine, with a grain of salt. To me if you want your claims about animals to be 100% legit you're best to call them generic.

John, thats funny, I never did see you in Daytona. Since we are on it, why not share with us the locality info. on your particular line? Thats what started this thread. All the other selling info. was added in later yet not one word on actual lines has been represented by anyone.

In my opinion because something sells does not make it what it is. John, did locality matter to you when you purchased your original group?

I'm glad you sold all your herps as everyone that has responded also state the same. Thats why Daytona is so popular for sellers. Gets the crowds. I myself picked up in exces of 30 herps as well that I purchased over the past year, at this show.

Its unfortunate that one interested in locality info. on such impressive herps though can not get any.

Would enjoy to chat more on these impressive herps as they were what got me into collecting so many years ago.

Thanks, Rich Hebron

just wanted to thank dave boyle for the kind words on my n. pines. they were dandies werent they. the parents are gorgeous, which helps thats for sure in determining how the offspring might look as adults. so far everyone who has my yearlings from last year is inordinately happy with how they have colored up. based on that, and how this years babies look, i have held back a trio myself(i love pituophis). also wanted to thank tony the d-man for his support on the issue of locality-and he is so right-why dont all the locality nuts get it -that is that unless you caught the animals yourself in a locale you really have to go on faith as to their origin. if i am asked locale i think from now on i am simply going to preface my statements with" as far as i know these animals are from---" that and "i'm just happy to be here". my 2 cents from a guy originally from brooklyn ny stock(though documentation is fuzzy and i have to go on the words of parents as to my locale-pretty hazy at best lol)

np

John, from your enthusiasm with the post I am assuming your are in total agreement with this point of view on locales. I also hear many state the locale of your herps as legite Barrens bloodline. Actually, I recall you as doing that yourself. My question though is along the lines of if Locale is not important why are/were all you breeders listing the Locale on your herps as specific when selling them?

Odd to me that only now when someone questions this issue that is has suddenly become a non-issue. I figured since ao many breeders were actually stating Barrens bloodlines there was something real to it. I was not the one making the statement, all of you were. How is it that someone who originally put some credence in what you creditable breeders were stating is suddenly foolish for believeing that locale actually mattered.

So, now we have breeders who previously were marketing their herps as specific locale herps now asking why locale was important to begin with?

Ok, you all got me. I personally have no answer for this one.

Rich Hebron

I have an answer for you. I thought Howie's post was humorous! That doesn't mean locale isn't important to me. You asked me in one of my posts if locality meant anything to me. It did when I started keeping herps 35 years ago and it still does! All of my locality pits were either collected by me or close friends. If my friend who collected the parents of my founding stock(when it was legal to do so!) wants to share that info., that's up to him. He's aware of this forum and is probably following all this. I can tell you to within a foot where I collected my breeding stock but for animals I got from friends what they want to share is not my business! I can also tell you that since I started working with Jersey pines in the 1970's, I haven't mixed any other pine blood into them, even tho I work with other locality pines. John

True, it is up to Bart Bruno himself to state the origin of your stock.

I'm sure Bart is following this thread. Actually I am familiar with Bart myself. Bart and I have chatted on pines in the past. Actually in the 70's, again in the 80's as well as in the 90's. Unfortunately not in this century. I would enjoy for the founder of your stock to join in. He was one who kept many pituophis back then. It was always interesting to see what his next ad. stated in NOAH newsletters as well as [bleep].

Brings me back to Snowball, that was a white pine. I'm sure if there was any line he kept going it was that one or at least I would like to think so.

Thanks, Rich Hebron

Howie, thanks for clarifying the information on your herps. Your sincerity is much appreciated. I personally did not want to mention the lineage information you provided to me in your e-mail better figuring if you wanted others to know you would tell them yourself. As this thread was originally started to get just that type of information from people that are actually working with these herps.

You seem to have a great following and I more then welcome a continuance in the correspondence that has started between us in relation to these pines.

Rich Hebron

i'm just happy to be here...

It's that Hairy, Legless, Busch Beer Tortoise again! ! !
How much is it? Is it Abberant or Heterozygous for anything? ? ? Lol.

Cute picture, love that dog (Is it yours?)
Take care

It is interesting to listen to all the different approaches and the opinions when it comes to locale animals. I have always wanted to have as much information on my animals as I could get as far as the background of that specific group of animal no matter what it was. If it was locale information so much the better, but still it was important to know where they came from and what they could be expected to produce.

Locality in my approach is a way for showing recognition and respect for the natural diversity of the species or sub-species we keep. For example take the bull snake, in our collection we have 11 different specific locales and 4 separate morph groups represented at this time. I would suggest that is you took one of each and placed them in a cage you would be able to see the differences even if you were a novice. A Kankakee bull is so different from a South Texas bull. Likewise a Colorado bull is a completely different looking animal than a South Dakota bull. Northern Pines are much the same, New Jersey animals are usually much different than South Carolina animals and so on and so on.

How do you know "what is what" you may ask? My rule of thumb is to only buy from breeders that you trust and/or can provide information about the origins of the animal. "Large breeder" does not automatically mean pure animals, small trustworthy breeders have provided me with some of the best animals I have in the collection.

At the Daytona show I saw about 35 animals that I considered hybrids and they all sold during the show with the exception of the two mutt LA. Pines I saw.

Zoo stock is by no means an acid test, as KJ mentioned the LA. Pine fiasco was a perfect example. I have known of way too many instances where zoos did not practice genetic purity to trust them explicitlly. That iformation was not heresay it was straight from the zoo keepers themselves.

It is really a shame for those of us that care about the purity of different species and sub-species in this hobby to be so distrustfull of fellow herpers and any new morphs or different looking animals. But in todays day and age and with the number of hybrids in the market place it has become a requirement if we want to remain true to our self imposed ethics and criteria for the animals we keep.

As a side note I would like to say thanks to so many of the folks around the country that have helped us re-establish our collection after the temp fiasco. With help from folks like John Ginter, Shannon Hiatt, Del Apshaw, Bart B. and Randy Linburg etc. to name a few most of the lines we have bred for so many years have been put back into place. Thank goodness we had a number of animals out on breeder loan and have been able to get those animals back. We are currently back up to about 400 animals and even produced 61 clutches of babies this year with 16 more in the oven. Your help will always be remembered.

John Cherry
Cherryville Farms

John, well said. Glad to see you are getting things back on track concerning your herps. I read your later post as well concerning the Daytona expo and some of your new acquisitions.

I'll shoot you an e-mail regarding some of the adult lines you acquired as we seem to have similar concerns when selecting herps.

Rich Hebron

Hahahah, nah. We do keep two dogs, a peek-a-poo and a Carolina Dog (cool dog BTW, well both for that matter}. My wife would not be to keen on me stuffing either one of them in a box. Maybe one of the cats but not either of the dogs.

My wife came across this picture (online) and sent it to me while I was typing away in one of the forums so I inserted it. It's actual title was Redneck Pet Carrier.

Personally, I think a rhino iguana would look better peering out of the box myself. Though, I did not place it in any lizard forums as I did not want to give anyone ideas.

Take Care, Rich Hebron

I wanted to commend Rich openly. Maybe I am wrong, but it seems several post in response to Rich seem to put him down for wanting enough data to satisfy himself. It is seems as though some people got offended that Rich hasn't just accepted their word. I say keep digging Rich until you are satisfied.

In regards to the Zoo stock LA Pines, well everyone knows how I feel about hybrids and LA Pines. Thanks to a great friend, I have a decent sized collection of Ruthveni to work with and we can trace all of our animals back to their wild capture or to the wild capture that started their prespective lineage. Are their hybrid zoo stock out there, I am sure there is but I can verify they don't exist in our collection. Like KJ said, the Zoo stock we have is from animals collected in the late 80's, not the 50's and 60's.

Sorry to have rambled, I just wanted to express my thoughts on these two topics (yeah, I know I don't do the best job expressing my views). Mostly, I just didn't like the way it seemed others thought Rich should just take their word for it and get miffed if he didn't.

dc

..

The original post by Rich Hebron was "Any keepers working with an actaul line originating back to NJ stock". Looks like a straightforward question. Rich got a number of names of breeeders of NJ Northern Pines. Rich did spent alot of his personal time contacting people and tracing their bloodlines. It's obvious now that there's a missing link to the original w/c breeder stock. Rich and I traded a couple emails (I hope it's O.K. with Rich to bring it up). I posted on his thread to a post that Chris Kennard and KJ were putting up. Rich has gone to our website and made some nice comments on it and discussed our Northern Pine stock. Maybe there needs to be an asterick or something to denote verifiable NJ stock as opposed to NJ stock. People have taken offense or seem uncomfortable over Rich not being able to verify their stock. He's not saying they aren't Ocean County, New Jersey Pine Barrens stock or Burlington County, New Jersey Pine Barren stock; but he is saying that with the information we have given him, he can't link it to the original founding breeders. We push and propose buy captive, buy captive, buy captive and as the years go by our stock gets further and further from the original w/c parental stock. It may appear that we've lost that link to the original founding NJ stock, I don't know. I guess Rich you asked a simple straightforward question about anyone working with NJ Northern Pine stock. When you took the time to trace the lineage and hit a break in the chain several people took offense to it. I don't know why they did except to think they took it as something else. I hope you find some NJ Northern Pines that you will be comfortable and satisfied with because I know you really would like to have some in your collection.

>>I wanted to commend Rich openly. Maybe I am wrong, but it seems several post in response to Rich seem to put him down for wanting enough data to satisfy himself. It is seems as though some people got offended that Rich hasn't just accepted their word. I say keep digging Rich until you are satisfied.
>>
>>In regards to the Zoo stock LA Pines, well everyone knows how I feel about hybrids and LA Pines. Thanks to a great friend, I have a decent sized collection of Ruthveni to work with and we can trace all of our animals back to their wild capture or to the wild capture that started their prespective lineage. Are their hybrid zoo stock out there, I am sure there is but I can verify they don't exist in our collection. Like KJ said, the Zoo stock we have is from animals collected in the late 80's, not the 50's and 60's.
>>
>>Sorry to have rambled, I just wanted to express my thoughts on these two topics (yeah, I know I don't do the best job expressing my views). Mostly, I just didn't like the way it seemed others thought Rich should just take their word for it and get miffed if he didn't.
>>
>>dc

Gentlemen, well put. I actually believed this would have been an easier task to accomplish when I first posted my question. With all the people out there who have stated they sold NJ Pines as well as all those that stated they purchased NJ pines I thought we would have had a wealth of info. pouring in. Much enthusiasm expresed to boot. Now if it was myself as a buyer, I would be pretty uptight with any NJ locale Pines that I have purchased where as I could not count on the seller to get that info. up here for all to see. Thats why I do not have any.

Unfortunately I think many have lost that naturalist attitude that brought many of us into this hobby to begin with. To see any living creature (natural type) in it's natural state is quite a sight. I think the move to have anything new hatched/bred in a collection now in the hopes to have a name attached is prevailing. I mean if people are not critical enough to question their stock prior to purchases yet so willing to state it as such in order to sell, and it sells, why bother. Anything becomes what we want it to be if we stick to our guns long enough.

In all these years thats what kept me interested. The ability to see these herps in the wild. I was able to hit shows and actually discuss all these natural wonders with other hobbyists. Now, its a sight to see well represented natural types at any show, forget about wasting anyones time about such trivial matters as locale. I have to give some credit to Mark and Kim bell though. For so large a breeding facility they maintain, in all these years they still work with herps that some would consider insignificant because returns would be so low. Amazed to still see them working with more natural type colubrids then any other large facility that I am currently aware of.

Although as a whole the attitude seems to have drifted toward actual returns. As an example, I noticed more chatter about sales and purchases in this thread then actual serious chat about these pines. Nothing wrong with making a buck but to only focus on that is another story.

A few did stick to the original question but many did take the route of using it to state how sales were or to point out who did have what I was looking. Though nothing more to offer except the attitude of what is wrong with my trust on anothers word. Look at this world for starters, who can trust much now days. Trust is earned not freely accepted.

Please note though there is not one person who states keeping NJ stock Northerns that have addressed lineage in this post. If you read through though I have asked several to elaborate on their lines after they posted a comment. None have as of yet.

Terry, it is fine you brought up our mutual communication on this and I am still in the process of checking the background info. My intention was not to make any waves. My intention was to continue communicating with people about different locales, hopefully different blood to strengthen lines and so on. I apparently used poor judgement though with posting that question here as most did take it the wrong way. My inbox showed me that.

Some did respond with names for me and unfortunately for the most part those that I contacted have not yet respond back to me. One guy did though and did state all his lines were mixed with Northerns from further south. As he put it, "many pines back then were being taken from the South after the Barrens line was cut off. For the most part Northerns were more predominate in the South East not the North East." Pretty serious comment but makes much sense.

I do hope there are legite lines out there that have been kept pure but if not I sure hope they are protected well in NJ as they are a sight to see in their natural state.

On a side note this is nothing compared to my search on Everglade's Rats. With that I was trying to find herps from a specific area not debate if they ever existed or not. I just wanted those from that area and let everyone else debate what they are. Never passed from that point. Be easier to give in and just buy some albino balls.

Rich Hebron

I am big on locality animals. But there are a couple of limitations. Admittedly, unless you collect them yourself, it comes down to doing your homework in the field guides, getting to know the breeders through forums such as this, and trust.

But that being said, even the best get fooled...witness Ginter and Craig Trumbower with La Pines a few years back.

Secondly let me cite a personal example. Earlier this spring a neighbor asked me to come over and remove a snake in his front yard. It turned out to be a California King, obviously either an escapee or purposely released. Who's to say how many others have already gotten loose and interbred with local subspecies?

KB

This entire post was well written with lots on info on your thoughts and concerns.

>>On a side note this is nothing compared to my search on Everglade's Rats. With that I was trying to find herps from a specific area not debate if they ever existed or not. I just wanted those from that area and let everyone else debate what they are. Never passed from that point. Be easier to give in and just buy some albino balls.

Sooooo, are you making a shot at me or our mutual new friend who shal remain nameless? I need to know if I should laugh with you or get offended....LOL

As one of the guys who gave a negative response I've got to say that it was only because some of the information in his original post misrepresented the origins of another breeders stock. Though it never crossed my mind that the statement was intentionally misleading it bore correcting non the less. I think though that my point has been born out in this thread. Nobody seems to be able to trace northerns all the way back to legal founder stock therefore my statement that if you can't take Howie's stock you might as well trash the whole locality concept! To me at least it seems that those who claim otherwise are setting themselves up on an awfully thin pedestal.

I have never misrepresented anyones stock. I only asked the question. Actually, I also asked you the same question since you were so certain of Howie's line. Is it that you just trust him that much that they have to be what everyone says they are? Thats very honorable actually.

Myself, I asked him for info. In Daytona directly as well as in an e-mail this week after several people recommended his stock. I personally do not know what his stock is or how he is presenting it but I do look forward to his response. I personally do not want to base it on what people say here but on Howie himself. If you note it was not Howie writing anything here but people like you for him.

Rich Hebron

Rich "misrepresentation" is a strong word and implies intent. I did not mean to convey that and thought I was carefull not to. If in any way I did I opologize. However incorrect info was posted and I acted to correct it. Peace.

Now, you keep stating you only acted in defence of anothers honor. Odd as I recall stating what I was told when at the booth. I admit I could have been a little off and stated that in the same post made earlier. I did reread what I posted though. Howie had info. on one of the Adults. The question then falls on the other adult (breeder male) that could have been possibly something he could not verify. Left it open for discussion and e-mailed Howie.

Curious though if I am correct on him not knowing the true source of the other Adult in question ,that sired the stock he had available in Daytona. What its impact would be on your constant stance or should I say premise to keep bringing it up as some kind of sense of worth to your constant attacks in this post.

Did you ever ask Howie? Would you post his answer if he did respond as I stated? What would that mean for all your comments made if I was correct?

I noted you also stated much in succeeding posts below about locality being a ploy for increasing sales with attracting newbies and such. Also along the lines of people thinking them experts in regards to locale. I am lost with all that you state.

Are you meaning all these breeders listing locale herps for
monetary gain with new collectors that may not know any better to ask for proof of the locale? You really had me lost there as I thought you were against my questioning such stuff to begin with. I most certainly could not be the expert you are referring to as I am the one who was asking for the information as I would never sell any herps listed as anything more then they are.

I think you have missed much in my intial reasons behind the goal I was attempting to accomplish here. I hope though many others have not.

Rich Hebron

>>As one of the guys who gave a negative response I've got to say that it was only because some of the information in his original post misrepresented the origins of another breeders stock.

I guess I missed that.

>>I think though that my point has been born out in this thread. Nobody seems to be able to trace northerns all the way back to legal founder stock

I agree with this. This thread has demonstrated god records haen't been kept on Northerns. That plus the fact that for several years, breeders (not all but some) have crossed he patternless southerns and amel southerns wih Northerns further muddies the water. I haven't done the research and probably never will (can't own Northerns where I live), but I would think that the easiest (not that it would be easy) trail to follow would be the amel line. The PURE amel northerns were documented to have come from the Barrens. Anyone contacted Rutgers to see if they have a record of any being released to public hands? They had wc/ch eggs that resulted in amels from the same area the original female was collected.

>>therefore my statement that if you can't take Howie's stock you might as well trash the whole locality concept!

First off, no offense is intended here, but I have no clue who Howie is, so others telling me he has he most verfiable would probably get the same reaction from me as it has Rich. "Ok, thanks for telling me, but I want to hear what he has to say." (quoting my mind's thoughts) He would have to convince me.

Secondly, even if he is a well known breeder it still doesn't carry weight. Sorry to kick a dead horse, but Ginter and Tumbower are pobably two of the most well respected herpers regarding pituophis and look what happened with their LA Pines. They didn't intentionally mislead their buyers, but it happened. Later research seems to indicate they didn't have pure animals. So just because Howie may have the best stock to you doesn't neccesarily mean that it is the best to others. Again, not trying to offend you or Howie, just making a point. As always, it all boils down to doing your own homework as a buyer and at the end of the day are you satisfied that you did enough to convince yourself. Heck, I have more in long distance phone bills and postage to verfiy my ruthveni, than I actually have in the purchase prices, lol.

>>To me at least it seems that those who claim otherwise are setting themselves up on an awfully thin pedestal.

Not sure what you mean to say here, but again, it all comes down to satisfing yourself with enough details.

Probably be the last post I make on this subject because we are all becoming redundant (especially me). Not a lot of gray matter roiling aroud up stairs for me if ou know what I mean.

Later

Here it is: "Thats odd, when we spoke he mentioned he only new where one of the adults locale was believing the other was from North Carolina." Since this isn't true it bore corecting.

Nah, not much was missed. You corrected nothing but Howie did for me. To bad he did not post it here though. Would have been much better if you were with me in Daytona. But hey, I gave everyone the benifit of the doubt as all I did was want to chat about bloodlines. Some though wanted to hoot and holler about others lines instead of staying on track. I noticed another post up above concerning another pit enthusiast who basically spread out kudos to all the herpers who were silent in this post that worked with Northern Pines. Stating how these particular people always know thier locales when asked. Congratulating them on sales. Camby was correct as we are all now becomming redundant.

You sir, can pick and play with anything here you like. The fact does remain though that not one person made a legitimate claim attesting to their Northern Pines being of pure NJ origin. When my first question was asked, instead of an enjoyable chat on locality we instead had people upset that a sore spot we upon them with herps they purchased listed as such. In the end some were up tight with me. Should be up tight with where they sourced their herps. From the e-mails I received I did get a clear message from many of fear to state their true felings. Unfortunate to say the least.

As I stated in an earlier post on Northern Pines, it is something to see someone stand up for their convictions and state their name. We all have views and many like to share but at least say it so all these younsters that stop by, or people you may come across at a show know the people they are dealing with and where they stand. State your name with your views.

Like the guy in the above post praising all these herpers when he most surely knows not a one stepped up to the plate concerning this thread. Yet all about legite NJ pines and how particular they are about their stock and how great sales are. Yet we you come down to the end, you get a screen name.

I'm done with this thread.

Thanks for all the enjoyable views stated as it gives the general public a good sense of what we are all about.

Rich Hebron

Tony, you stated Howie's meticulous nature and how he would surely know lineage of his adults. Blasphemy for anyone stating different. Then to basically state anyone concerned with this locale issue just doesn't get it. Along the lines of if you do not catch it yourself then how do you know for sure a herp is from where it is suppose to be from. You stated the possibility of using marketing ploys by people that focused on Locales with newer collectors to make sales.

Tony, I am sure you now see Howie's comment that locale nuts just don't get it. Kudos on the comment from John Meltzer. Seems they are both in agreement with you about this locale issue.

Here are the odd things about it all as I see it. We had/have breeders listing their herps as Locale Specific when available for sale. Someone then asks them for locale info. on those herps for sale. Easy question where as one could expect an easy answer since they are using that term in their marketing. Locale suddenly becomes insigificant by these exact breeders, where as the person questioning them is at fault for something. Actually being termed locale nuts!!

I may be a bit meticulous when it comes to purchasing locale herps. You would never get me listing or stating I have a specific locale unless I damn well know for sure I do. So, when I noticed all these breeders selling Locale Herps, I figured they knew what they were talking about and figured them to be just as meticulous as I would be and freely provide data for their claims.

Howie actually sent me an e-mail on that Breeder males lineage. Since he already wrote earlier stating his view on this topic I now feel free to post the actual response he made to me in regards to that male.

"delve away rich, but it may not be easy. i dont even recall the guy who i got the adult male breeder from, only that he swore up and down it was an ocena county male" Howie Sherman.

In his above statement now posted in this thread he has stated he will now term his herps as "believed to be from a specific locale when asked".

I give alot of respect to Howie for his sincerity concerning this issue and addressing it head on. Appears to be very knowledgeable about pinesnakes as well. I look forward to a continuation in our discussion of this topic outside of the forums. He is unique though.

There were others that did respond to me about this locale issue as well. All that responded stated similar info. on their lines. I did not state their names along with their responses as they seem not to be so free to speak about this openly as Howie was.

It seems I have indeed had my question answered. If a seller is stating a herp as locale specific, the seller himself should at least have the info. to justify his claim. If not, they should list them as generic. I for one would have never asked this question on "Barren's" line herps if not for the fact of so many Breeders stating they had that specific locale for sale.

Tony, your point has been proven. When it comes to pituophis breeders you better take all this locale stuff stated by them with a grain of salt instead demanding info. on what justifies their claim. If they go silent on that question then only trusting what you can catch yourself.

I do suggest though you take it easy on your personal accusations and crusades until you know all the facts. You most certainly wasted alot of our time here on this topic.

Unfortunate ending it appears as I was almost certain these breeders had some info. to justify their claims. As I stated in the beginning my search continues. I'm done with this topic.

Thanks, Rich Hebron

> Nobody seems to be able to trace northerns all the way back to legal founder stock therefore my statement that if you can't take Howie's stock you might as well trash the whole locality concept! To me at least it seems that those who claim otherwise are setting themselves up on an awfully thin pedestal.

Why? Because the hobby made one mistake, you think the whole thing should be trashed? If that is the case, look at creamsicle cornsnakes. They have so inserted themselves into cornsnakes that we should just give up trying to breed ANYTHING pure? I mean, that would be the same type logic. For that matter, let's just forget about breeding snakes completely except as a commercial activity. How does that sound? To me, it sounds HORRIBLE. I hope it does to each and every one of us in this community (including you and I), too!

Earlier you said "Howie has been pretty meticulus about where he got his breeders from. If you can't trust him on this you need to throw out the entire locality concept as its mostly based on trust."

So what? That only means HE was happy with the source of where he got his adults from. It sounds like you are, too. That doesn't mean RichH is, or that I am, or that anyone else is. I got news for you, since I have no idea who or what Howie is really like, I don't know enough to trust him blindly like that. That does NOT mean he is a bad guy or even less picky than I am. It just means that I, like RichH, would need more data. Additionally, trust him or not, the line has a couple of different stories attached to it now. Do YOU trust that? If so, you just aren't as picky as RichH and I. So what? Nothing. It only means we have different goals in this hobby. It doesn't mean that I say you should just dump the concept of keeping snakes....lol. It might mean that we don't keep the same bloodlines, though. So what? Again, nothing. To each his own.

Sooooo, what is the final word, if this line is so great, WHERE IS THE PROOF? The proof of the pudding is in the eating...and I'm still hungry! I've been hungry for locality northern pinesnakes I TRUST for years. I still don't have them.

KJ

Why? Because people are setting themselves up as experts and trashing other peoples stock based on criteria that all too often is nothing short of subjective. You know as well as I that there are a lot of newbies on these forums and this constant drumming of the locality mantra is every bit as much about securing converts and sales as it is about communicating a breeding ethic.

As for my not being as "picky" as you or Rich, possibly, but then you don't have any idea of what my selection criteria are. The big difference is that I don't pretend that my approach is better than your's nor do I pretend to be expert on and speculate about your stock on open forums. Basically, if I can't say something good about your stock, I'm not going to say anything. This is what I can say about Howies northerns. The locality data is, as good as it gets. He has a good eye for selecting stock that matures into and is well capable of producing similar "classic" bold blotched high contrast animals. He's taken measures to avoid inbreeding and is not so intently focused on a single criteria that he has failed to keep or produce them. Sorry but sometimes the pudding is instant.

BTW, there is one guy who has NC pines traced back to wild collected stock. He's a NC native and was grandfathered when the State moved to protect pines. He's been around for awhile surprised you didn't know about him.

You and this thrashing stuff. Howie was well aware of all this as I e-mailed him on this topic. Actualy before you ever responded. If you will note I posted that as a question. There was more to it then that stated in my post above. Stick to the facts and stop trying to create problems with a sincere direct question that was made right from the beginning of this thread.

Where you have gone with it is something else. All I have gotten out of all you stated here is you trust Howie. Good and be done with it. I am sure if the guy can attest to his line of pines for monetary returns he then can surely speak for himself. Oh yes, have I mentioned he has.

A note on the NC pine line. Not worth anything without the facts, names, places, time frame. Share the knowledge instead of all this pety stuff.

Rich Hebron

: > )

Big words and only screen names!!!!!!

Rich Hebron