Reptile & Amphibian Forums

that TPW and certain legisators may want to be VERY careful regarding "getting the public involved". I'm not familiar with lobbying laws in the state of Tx, but based on what I've read here there seems to be a reasonable suspicion that those laws were not followed as they should have been...

Perhaps a detailed look at campaign contributions for Hilderbran is in order? I could be wrong, but I think that any organization contributing over a certain amount to a legislator's efforts must be public knowledge...One of you "herpin' legal types" may want to verify this....

It's amazing to me that such a law can pass in the manner in which it did...Alot of people (both herp-related and not) worked very hard to reach an amicable solution for most everyone concerned. After all, isn't that the point of the "public forums" that occurred before the law was passed? What Hilderbran and those that support him said with the attachment of both the original HB 2414 and HB 1309 is that the legislative process is a burden meant to be overcome when personal agendas are at stake...Those words may not have come out of their mouths, but we all know that actions speak much louder than words.

It's personally disturbing to me that in America (Texas of all places!!) a politician can push through legislation that runs directly counter to what OTHER legislators AND concerned citizens have agreed upon...AND DO SO WITH THE APPARENT ENDORSEMENT OF A GOVERNMENT BODY!!!! I realize there's alot of misinformation and confusion regarding just who and what herpers are...For the most part, we are people just like everyone else...people that have the same concerns, worries and aspirations as everyone else...Just as there are hunters and fisherman that will not hesitate to hunt and fish illegally, so too are there herpers that won't hesitate to collect animals illegally...Is it really appropriate to consider banning hunting and fishing due to these "bad apples"? If not, I ask the same question re: the collection, observation and study of herps...What is reasonable and prudent?

I would hope that TPW and responsible legislators are asking themselves this very same question as the heat regarding this issue has failed to dissipate....

Ok...off the soap box now...WHEW!!!!

-AzAtrox

what would you look for? A $5000 contribution from a TPWD commissioner maybe? Oh, found it. That was hard.

we were denied due process. The original bill with the term game animal did not apply to us so it was ignored. There was no time to organize public comment by the time Hilderbran introduced the substitute bill with the term "wild animal".

Even then when we succeeded in getting it amended, Hilderbran did what any crooked politician would do to get it passed. If he thinks his political career isn't in jeopardy he better think again.

If TP&WD officials think that a few jobs are not in jeopardy, they better think again.

Forks

Joe wrote:
"we were denied due process. The original bill with the term game animal did not apply to us so it was ignored. There was no time to organize public comment by the time Hilderbran introduced the substitute bill with the term "wild animal"."

If I remember correctly, it was worse than that-HH amended the bill AT THE PUBLIC HEARING ITSELF. Of course, there was no one there to challenge what we had thought was a bill which would have no effect on our interests.

Brad Chambers

Pardon my Tx ignorance here, but I'd imagine that "the public" would be quite interested in that little tidbit of information. Particularly as it relates to an elected legislator and a commissioner for the governmental body responsible for managing the state's natural resources being in "kahoots" regarding legislation...

I may be incredibly niave here, but I didn't think that one of TPW main job responsibilities was endorsing the manner in which legislation is passed...and by contributing cash to Hilderbran, this is a signal of just that. Now, I realize that TPW CAN make recommendations regarding legislation, but isn't this SUPPOSED to happen only after data collection and research? How much verifiable research was done at the 11th hour AFTER the amended HB 2414 was agreed upon? How much research was done invalidating the death of HB 1309 on the floor?

Yes, I imagine that the "general public" that TPW seemingly wants to "get involved" would be quite interested in how all this came to be....

-AzAtrox

What TPWD is missing is that the "General Public" was involved through their elected representatives (exactly how a representative democracy is supposed to work). Unfortunately for TPWD the general public, through their elected representatives, overwhelmingly rejected the road herping ban.

Of course TPWD and HH didn't like this response, so they basically told the pubic to "butt out" then snuck the ban in under the radar.

The deeper I dig into all this FOI data, the more worried I become that trying to work with TPWD may be waste of time. They disdain us, think we are stupid, think we are poachers, and think we need to be shut down. They don't even want to waste time talking to us.

I still hope (perhaps against all hope) that they will come to the table and at least talk to us. If they continue with their past tactics, we will need to gear up for a "fight to the knife".

seeing their true feelings toward "the general public" exposed in the media!

Brad Chambers

I'd really like to get a have a professional pollster run a few choice questions before a sampling of the Texas public. How would John Q. Public respond?

1) Should a single Texas representative be able to manipulate the political process in order to pass a bill that was opposed by 100% of the other representatives?

2) Should Texas Parks and Wildlife allow hunters to shoot and kill game animals on Texas State lands while prohibiting hobbyist from capturing non-protected varieties of live reptiles and amphibians?

3) The right-of-ways along Texas roads are public areas that are open for walking, jogging, bicycling, picnicking, birding, flower collecting, rock collecting, insect collecting, and trapping of birds of prey (with a falconry permit). If these activities are all legal, should it also be legal to collect reptiles and amphibians by non-lethal means and without the use of weapons?

4) Should it be legal to drive along Texas roadways in order to rescue and/or capture non-game animals that are in danger of being run-over?

5) Should the state of Texas conduct studies or collect data before deciding to ban previously legal outdoor activities?

6) If studies suggest that commercial collection of wild reptiles and amphibians is harming wildlife populations, should the state of Texas A) Regulate commercial harvest of large numbers of reptile and amphibians? Or B) Ban sportsmen and hobbyist from collecting small numbers of reptiles and amphibians from public land?

7) A small percentage of traditional hunters and fishermen disregard hunting and fishing regulations and illegally exploit Texas wildlife. Should TPWD focus on prosecuting the violators, or just outlaw all hunting and fishing in times and places that they think (without any supporting studies or data) are subject to abuse?

8) A small percentage of reptile and amphibian enthusiasts who collect or photograph reptiles and amphibians do so in violation of regulations and illegally exploit Texas reptiles and amphibians. Should TPWD focus on prosecuting the violators, or just outlaw all non-lethal collection of reptiles and amphibians in times and places that they think (without any supporting studies or data) are subject to abuse?

9) What activity creates a greater risk to public safety
a) Family groups wandering around beside busy roadways in order to photograph wildflowers, or reptile and amphibian collectors walking along the ROW in search or reptiles and amphibians?
b) Walkers, joggers, and bicyclists traveling along the shoulder of the road, or reptile and amphibian collectors walking along the ROW in search or reptiles and amphibians?

Many, many more ...

The general public shouldn't be a factor. If you took a poll of how many in the general would rather not have Bambi get shot every year, I'm guessing it would be pretty high. There is a segment of the populace that enjoys deer hunting and a segment that enjoys snake hunting. The problem is that deer hunting generates money for political donors and snake hunting does not.
Think the average joe can go out and shoot a trophy buck for free? Think again, see link.
Faith Ranch Hunts

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Snakes of Hudspeth County, Texas

Not really a fair comparision. If there was a rancher who could virtually garuntee a "gold class" grayband in just 4 1/2 days of hunting I'm sure they could charge a permium too, regardless of whether there was public land available or not to hunt snakes.
And there is plenty of public land available for the deer hunter who chooses to hunt average deer, not so with snake hunters.
Really these ranchers should be learning about snakes and working for our money if they want it. There should be a choice between public land and private land just as there is for all other hunters and fishermen. Ranchers should not get a free ride from a law that forces the public to support them.
Snake hunters pay into the community in other ways so that it is spread around the whole town and they probably pay at least as much if not more than the average fisherman for their catches.

>>Not really a fair comparision. If there was a rancher who could virtually garuntee a "gold class" grayband in just 4 1/2 days of hunting I'm sure they could charge a permium too, regardless of whether there was public land available or not to hunt snakes.

If you are willing to pay $8000 dollars for a Grayband, give me a week and I'll have myself a new ATV. They are FORCING us onto private land, period. Being the law abiding citizens we are, we're gonna have to pay just like the deer hunters. Sound fishy? I think it's a good comparison.
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Snakes of Hudspeth County, Texas

I think I misread your original post. I took it as you saying since some deer hunters are willing to pay huge dollars for hunting deer that alterna hunters should too. I then read the website and they seem to be saying their particular ranch has "gold class" deer and the hunt is 4 1/2 days. I was saying is there was a rancher that had habitat and knowledge that could vitually garuntee a "gold class" alterna SOME hunters would pay a premium for that. Sorry for not clarifying, I don't think any alterna hunter would pay $8,000 but I think a few would pay $1,000 if the rancher could virtually garuntee it in 4 1/2 days. Most hunters spend their whole life and maybe get 1 or 2 that could be called "gold class".
I also agree with you that snake hunters should have comparable access to public lands because most deer hunters also are not going to pay $8,000 for a deer.

say on lakes or rivers?

No, and we should be treated the same way and allowed our public access.

Think of us more like fishermen not game hunters.. We fall in place much better there.

Lance

I will go one step further and say that if herping is big enough to warrant all these laws(and concerns over impact from hobbyists) we have nowadays it is big enough to have it's own licensing system. I don't think it's really fair us paying into a system and all the money going towards game/fish managment.

I agree 100%. Collecting herps should be managed in the same manner as fishing.
Richard

Yes, I've followed this illegal saga since the whisperings of a ban began, and even though I live in Az, it infuriates me that conduct such as what Hilderbran and certain people in TPW have exhibited is allowed to go on unimpeded...

There must come a point in time where TPW as an organization is willing to come to the table and discuss the issues openly and honestly...TPW is a big organization, and I refuse to believe that EVERYONE with political influence within it is steadfastly opposed to what is right...If that IS the case, then perhaps class action suits, media publicity and other such avenues can be used to make our position (and the need to respond to that position) known...I know that there are people here on this very forum that are in the process of making some of these things happen. If I can be of any assistance please advise and I will do what I can.

-AzAtrox

AzAtrox wrote: "TPW is a big organization, and I refuse to believe that EVERYONE with political influence within it is steadfastly opposed to what is right."

>>I agree. I'm certain that there are many in TPWD that are fair minded, open to discussion, and willing to work with us toward better regulations for herps and herpers. Unfortunately, I haven't seen any of those voices speaking up for us or even for dialog in the FOI documents that I have reviewed so far. I am especially upset about the silence or neutrality of some in TPWD that I really thought were on our side.

I'm frustrated right now, but I remain hopeful. I'd rather work with them. However, I'm willing to work against them in a very bloody battle (metaphorically people, put the weapons down LOL) if that is what it takes.