Reptile & Amphibian Forums

the lessers ive seen are somewhat variable any pics of lessers and supers would be nice thanks .C
ps. if im on the right track? is this a co-dom and dom trait

Lesser is co-dominant with the lessers being heterozygous for the lesser gene (one lesser mutant copy paired with one normal version of the same gene). The homozygous for the lesser gene animals are all white.

Platy is lesser plus something else. Exactly what that something else is continues to be a subject of debate. Some believe it's a recessive 2nd gene but based on the breedings I've seen posted so far I agree with a theory proposed that it might be another mutant allele of the white snake gene like lesser, mojave, phantom, Vin Russo, and possibly a few others. The difference that this allele (version) of the gene doesn't seem to have an effect by it's self, it just dilutes some of the other mutant versions in combination. For example, it lightens a lesser up to make it a platy but when paired with normal the “platy sib” carriers of this not yet named mutation look normal.

so are you saying that lesser bred to normal will give 1/2 lessers and half normals that are HET,and then if you breed a lesser to a NORMAL SIB you get a lesser platy is there a pic of a lesser and a pic of a lesser platy.thanks Chris

the terms lesser and lesser platy are the exact same animal. in this terminology, platy stands for platinum. The original animal imported by Ralph Davis was extremely light with a platinum color so he named the morph platinum. When he first bred it the babies were much darker so he was thinking at first that the platinum was the super version and the offspring were lesser platinums and it was initially thought that if you bred two lessers together you would get platinums, which has not happened to date. The main theory of how to create platinums also known as platty daddy's is by breeding a lesser or a platinum to a normal looking baby that was the offspring from a platinum. It can get quite confusing if you haven't been following this since the very beginning but I hope I have helped some.
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Josh & Krysty Hutto
J&K Reptiles

Various Ball Pythons:::

1.0 striped vanilla
1.0 spider
1.2 Citrus Ghost and hets
1.2 Albino and hets
2.3 het Pied
0.6 50% poss het pied
1.1 Pastel (male has additional gene going on with him)
a bunch of normal female breeders
a bunch of normal female holdbacks and several rescued normal males

0.1 columbian boa, she's a feeding monster, controls my
over production of rats, lol
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa, another rat eating monster
1.1 corns

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

Ralph has done some pretty amazing stuff with the platinums, goblins, phatoms, and dreamsicles.

so it does have to be a normal baby from daddy.
daddy X NORMAL=lessers and !!!normal sibs!!!
so the normals from lesserXlesser or lesser X normal (normal unrelated to daddy)are thought to me normal(normal)????
i just read all i could find on RDR's.i just picked up a lesser sib from lesser X black back from jarrod carr stock.most had some bk back but i got the best of them for the black back pattern.well i thought i would look into all the storys i hear about the power of a lesser sibs.to see if i sould look for anything to happen or pair it up with just the rite morph to make some gold...so do i have a great bk back or the straw to spin into gold?????carr?
if nothing what the story on carr's black back?????????
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ball pythons
pastel,het&PH albino,het&PH hypo,PH pieds,PH clown,and norms!!
borneo ST,black,& red blood pythons
0.1 black SSTP
2.2 borneo STP/marble
2.2 red bloods
garter snake morphs easterns/checkereds/plains/redsides
w.hognose morphs
1.1 super kids Memfis Lance and Linda May(co-dom)

if the alelle theory is corrcect then to produce a platty you have to have either a platty or a sibling sired by a platty. The bad thing is that through multiple breedings, there doesn't seem to be a phenotypical super for the gene that causes the platty on it's own. This fact also tends help support the dilute alelle theory. So in my opinion as well as others, you must have a platty sib to produce a platty.
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Josh & Krysty Hutto
J&K Reptiles

Various Ball Pythons:::

1.0 striped vanilla
1.0 spider
1.2 Citrus Ghost and hets
1.2 Albino and hets
2.3 het Pied
0.6 50% poss het pied
1.1 Pastel (male has additional gene going on with him)
a bunch of normal female breeders
a bunch of normal female holdbacks and several rescued normal males

0.1 columbian boa, she's a feeding monster, controls my
over production of rats, lol
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa, another rat eating monster
1.1 corns

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

To be fair, the theory that platy is lesser plus another allele of the same gene is a THEORY, like the theory that it's recessive and could be passed on by a lesser. I think the allele theory is more likely to be correct with the latest posted information but it isn't any where near unanimously accepted or frankly even widely understood. So if someone is selling normal looking offspring from lesser X normal as possible carriers of the gene to produce platy then they aren't for sure even wrong much less practicing questionable marketing. However, I do think it's important that we continue to discuss this subject so that potential buyers can be aware of the possibilities and make up their own mind.

thanx im gettin it now ,some fuzzy aspects but that seems to be unanimous ,kinda like the PB morph of Fla. Kings allelic to t- albino but is reccesive to normal and much more yet to be seen.Thanks Again.C

Christopher, like Josh is saying, it's the normal looking offspring of the Platy that appear to carry the genetics that needs to be combined with platy to make lesser, not the normal looking offspring of lesser X normal. Per the allele theory the lessers don't have the extra needed to make a platy or they would already be platy so they can't pass it off to their offspring. Normal looking offspring from lesser X normal would be normals per this theory.

However, there are possible carriers of the allele to dilute a lesser into a platy. These would be balls that have the platy as an ancestor but have a string of normals back to platy with no lessers blocking all direct lines to platy. For example:

Gen 1: platy X normal = lesser and normal looking 100% carriers of allele to dilute lesser into a platy (we need a name for this!)
Gen 2: lesser X the 100% carrier from gen 1 = normal looking 50% chance carrier, lesser, and platy
Gen 3a: The 50% chance carrier from gen 2 X unrelated normal = 25% chance carriers of the allele to dilute a lesser into a platy (50 or 0% once we find out if the gen 2 possible carrier hit it’s chance)
Gen 3b: lesser from gen 2 X unrelated normal = lessers and normals
Gen 3c: platy x unrelated normals = lessers and 100% carriers of the allele to dilute a lesser into a platy.

So, of the normal looking generation 3 babies:

3a have a chance of carrying the extra genetics to make a platy because they have a line up through a normal looking parent from gen 2 back to the original platy.

3b does not have a chance because it's only line to platy goes through a lesser and lessers can't carry the extra genetics or they would have been platy themselves.

3c is a direct descendent of a platy (from gen 2) so like all normal offspring of platy for sure has the genetics to combine with the lesser allele to make platy.

Let's assume that this is a multiple allele situation with three alleles at a single locus -- lesser platinum, normal, and platinum modifier. Crossing a lesser//normal x normal//platinum modifier would be expected to produce 1/4 lesser//platinum modifer (AKA platy).

Platy daddy x lesser daughter (from platy daddy x normal) would be expected to produce
1/4 lesser//lesser (homozygous lesser)
1/4 lesser//platinum modifier (platy)
1/4 lesser//normal (lesser)
1/4 normal//platinum modifer (looks normal)

Lesser x lesser (both first gen out of platy daddy x normal) would be expected to produce
1/4 homozygous lesser
2/4 lesser
1/4 normal

On the other hand, this could be a two locus situation with two alleles at each locus:
Locus 1 = normal and lesser (dominant to normal)
Locus 2 = normal and platinum modifier (recessive to normal)

And a platinum is a lesser//normal platinum modifier//platinum modifier, while a platinum modifier//platinum modifier looks normal.

In this case, generation 2 is a mating of lesser//normal normal//platinum modifier x normal//normal normal//platinum modifier. This mating would be expected to produce 1/8 platys.

Platy daddy x lesser daughter (from platy daddy x normal)would be expected to produce
1/8 lesser//lesser platinum modifer//platinum modifer (What would this look like? Lighter than a platy???)
1/8 lesser//lesser normal//platinum modifer (lesser)
2/8 lesser//normal platinum modifer//platinum modifer (platy)
2/8 lesser//normal normal//platinum modifer (lesser)
1/8 normal//normal normal//platinum modifer (looks normal)
1/8 normal//normal normal//normal (normal)

Lesser x lesser (both first gen out of platy daddy x normal) would be expected to produce
1/16 lesser//lesser platinum modifer//platinum modifer (What would this look like? Lighter than a platy???)
3/16 lesser//lesser normal//? (homozygous lesser)
2/16 lesser//normal platinum modifer//platinum modifer (platy)
6/16 lesser//normal normal//platinum modifer (lesser)
1/4 various genotypes, all normal looking

The major differences in these schemes is that with the two locus scenario, a lesser x lesser mating could produce platys. And the two locus scenario would be expected to produce fewer platys. Has anybody dug through Ralph Davis' breeding records to see what matings produce platys?

I have heard claims that jungle ball pythons result from environmental causes -- poor incubation conditions. Another possibility is that the platy daddy is a lesser that had poor incubation conditions. If so, we are not likely to produce more platys.

Paul Hollander

to date, at least what is on ralphs page a platy has been produced from the following breeding.

lesser x platy sib (normal looking baby from a platy breeding)
platy x platty sib
platy x lesser (of course all of his lessers are from his line)
unrelated butter x platy sib
unrelated phantom x platy sib (these are the phantom 44's)3

to date there has been no reports of a "daddy" being produced from breeding a lesser sib (a normal looking baby that has no influence from the platinum). Also there has been no platy produced from breeding 2 lessers together. Until someone comes out and proves they produced a "daddy" without using a platy or platy sib, then I will stick by my assumption that you have to buy a platinum or platy sib from ralph if you ever want to produce one. With that said, hopefully in a few years we will be able to get one, lol.
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Josh & Krysty Hutto
J&K Reptiles

Various Ball Pythons:::

1.0 striped vanilla
1.0 spider
1.2 Citrus Ghost and hets
1.2 Albino and hets
2.3 het Pied
0.6 50% poss het pied
1.1 Pastel (male has additional gene going on with him)
a bunch of normal female breeders
a bunch of normal female holdbacks and several rescued normal males

0.1 columbian boa, she's a feeding monster, controls my
over production of rats, lol
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa, another rat eating monster
1.1 corns

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

I personally think the lesser platties produced by Ralph Davis are the best. This is because a lot of them are produced by breeding the original "Platty Daddy" to a normal. To get a platty that resembles "Platty Daddy" you have to breed a lesser platty to a normal sibling, but the clutch has to be fathered by "Platty Daddy". I feel that the animals produced by Ralph are the best looking ones out there, because he is actually using a different gene to produce the lessers that people who are producing lessers by normals that do not have anything to do with the platty gene.

was RD the originater with the Platy Daddy and that that the the visual platy? or lesser? needs a hidden gene in its sibs to produce a Pdaddy,i would like to see a platy and a lesser and a lesser Platy and a Platy Daddy if there are these 4 mentioned.Thanx C

Here is a link to pics of the platty daddy. Scroll down to see them. Also check out the birthing records to see how his offspring look like. He is stunning!!

http://www.ralphdavisreptiles.com/collection/pythons/ball/platinum_ball_python.asp

Tristan
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Tristan

1.0 Argentine Black and White Tegu (Roy)
1.1 Pastel Ball Pythons
1.0 Spider Ball Python
0.2 Normal Ball Pythons

.

Platty Daddy
Lesser Platty
Normal sibling
"Karma" beautiful lucies produced by this line

Those are the four genes at work. If you go to Ralph's page, read the story about the original "Platty Daddy". It is a pretty amazing story, emotioinal for Ralph, and a tribute to his great husbandry practices and love for ball pythons.

karma is actually a lesser x phantom lucy, the super lesser lucy is the homozygous form of the lessers.
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Josh & Krysty Hutto
J&K Reptiles

Various Ball Pythons:::

1.0 striped vanilla
1.0 spider
1.2 Citrus Ghost and hets
1.2 Albino and hets
2.3 het Pied
0.6 50% poss het pied
1.1 Pastel (male has additional gene going on with him)
a bunch of normal female breeders
a bunch of normal female holdbacks and several rescued normal males

0.1 columbian boa, she's a feeding monster, controls my
over production of rats, lol
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa, another rat eating monster
1.1 corns

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!