Reptile & Amphibian Forums

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,292168,00.html
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Morph Evolutions
www.morphevolutions.com

I think the cops oughta be tried for manslaughter.

Quig
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Don't interupt me when I'm talkin' to myself

I lost my 4 year old in an accident in January. I know far to well the pain the family is going through, and I wouldn't wish that on anyone. As a former police officer for 7 years, I think that officer was extremely irresponsible. You never fire a weapon unless you can see everything behind your target. I think the officer might loose his job, and will definitely have to live with what happened for the rest of his life. I hate stories like this.

Was it really necessary to SHOOT at a snake that was just chilling in a tree?
And now...dead kid.
I hope the cop at least loses his job.
The guilt alone should take care of the rest...
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"What is man without the beasts?
If all the beasts were gone,
men would die from great loneliness of spirit.
For what happens to the beasts,
soon happens to men.
All things are connected."

-Chief Seattle (Duwamish Tribe)

nothing

Terrible tragedy.

Has anyone heard what sort of snake it was? Let's hope it wasn't an escape to make it even a little worse if possible.

In that part of OK. I believe the only snake likely to be up a tree would be a TX rat snake! Idiots. Shows where the irrational fear of snakes can lead.

Brad Chambers

I doubt he was shooting at a rattlesnake in a tree. So this moron killed a kid shooting at a completely harmless snake. He doesn't even have the argument of it POSSIBLY injuring someone. Apparently it was in brush. Probably nowhere even near people. This is what happens when the overall IQ of the entire poulation drops a few points every year. Human beings are de-evolving.

They don't have a critter roundup crew in OK?? Like Pesky critters? That officer deserves to be charged with manslaughter. If any one of us was shooting at that snake and hit the child , we would be locked up , no questions asked... Can't imagine what his parents are going through..

From articles I've found in the Norman paper:

1. The department was without an animal control officer so was sending officers who may not have been trained for animal control calls.

2. The snake was in a bird house.

3. The animal was believed to have been a “cotton mouth” or “water moccasin”.

Obviously there was a lake near by but I'm not sure how likely a water snake was to be up a tree in a bird house.

Here is one where they think it was a diamondback rattler.
NewsOK article

He said rat snake, not rattlesnake...
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~* Jen *~

Pink Lady Constrictors

Regardless to whether it was venomous or not, the snake was not posing an immidiate danger to anyone, and an expert should have been called in. Animal control is worthless in most cities for anything other than dogs or cats, and although the officer made a bad decision using a gun to take down a snake...especially one in a tree...he shouldn't have had to deal with the animal in the first place(IMO).

A few years ago I was driving in a highly populated town outside of Chicago, and I noticed a skunk wandering in and out of traffic. I pulled over and saw the skunk was disoriented and heavily foaming at the mouth. The animal was clearly rabid (at the time I worked at a vet clinic, and had experience with "stupid rabies". I placed an egg crate over the animal to keep in contained and called animal control. The claimed it would be $75 and at least an hour before they could arrive to check the animal. I explained that I was on city property, and they explained that if I didn't pay, I might as well release the animal. So, I called the cops, and they came out and destroyed the animal with in fifteen minutes. This animal was a public health threat, and I was shocked with the way the situation was handled. What is the point of animal control, if they won't properly control native animals who are posing a risk to other animals or people.

Just my two cents!
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Thanks,
Amy
www.myboids.4t.com
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2.0 Pastel ball pythons
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0.1 Spider ball python
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0.0.1 Plains Garter
0.1 Normal Kenyan Sand Boa
2.0 Anery Kenyan Sand Boa
1.0 Mid-Baja Rosy Boa
0.1 Leucistic Texas Rat
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1.2 BCI
That's Just The Snakes!

The "facts" vary from one article to the next (was he an only child, did he have a little brother, maybe even on scene at the time of the shooting, etc.) but I've read that they laid off their animal control officer but where trying to hire a new one part time.

I've also read now that it wasn't a bird house but was in rafters, perhaps of a back patio cover.

where the snake was? All that matters is that this police officer did something completely against what his training would have told him to do. I'm pretty sure that when you're in the Police Academy they don't tell you to shoot at a snake and possibly have bullets go flying that might kill or seriously injure someone else. His action that went completely against all of his training and rules ended up killing an innocent child. There were other ways to do this and remedy the situation that would not have ended up killing a young boy. Plain and simple, this officer did something he should't have and his dumb decision ended up with a dead child and he therefore should be tried for manslaughter. He did not intentionally kill him but his mistake cost a boy his life and he should pay for his decision and its end result, manslaughter. That's just my opinion though.

You are right, the tragedy far outweighs the trivial details.

My original concern was that it not be an escaped exotic to give a keeper a small share in the blame. It's probably worse to know that it was likely a harmless native snake someone on scene should have been familiar with and within easy reach of the ground. Maybe some reform and better training can come from this. I’m sure there will be settlement costs that could have been much better used on staffing and training, but hind sight is 20/20.

Any forum members in the area interested in the part time animal control job? Of course the snake was not the real problem and in no way should this have been the outcome of an animal control problem. But given the unfamiliarity of even professional animal control officers (an under appreciated profession) with exotic snake species perhaps the herp community could help with identification through education or even with an on call referral assistance network. In addition to legal/liability problems there would be logistical problems in maintaining such a list. I'm not sure I'd know and escaped spitting cobra if I saw one but as exotics become more wide spread perhaps we could help prevent an actual escaped snake caused tragedy before it’s the next big news story.

I spent 7 years in law enforcement, and the laws in Texas provide for the prosecution of an officer if his bullet hits an unintentional target. In Texas, even if you shoot someone who is, for examples sake, holding a clerk in a convenience store at gunpoint, and the bullett goes through the suspect and into the victim, you are liable for the victim. I would never shoot at anything in a residential area with a handgun. A shotgun with bird shot would have been better. I do not second guess officers, but gather from the facts of the reports that this snake was not an immediate threat to anyone. As I stated earlier, I lost my 4 year old to a careless accident that was not my fault in January. The pain that this family is going through is so unfathomable, that unless you have been through it you would never want to know. I get so mad at people, like my father in law, that don't pay attention to what they are doing, and cause the death of another person's child. The family may win a lawsuit, but I can tell you that the money doesn't do a darn thing to help the parents and or siblings of the child that was killed. Sorry this post is so long, but it hits so close to home. It brings up so many emotions for me that I have been trying to deal with and get past. Do not ever go without hugging your children at every possible opportunity, because you never know when it will be the last. I have practiced that with both of my boys, and I am thankful that I did. I will never forget Christopher's hugs, and I have a bunch to remember.

I'm deeply sorry for your loss. I can't even remotely imagine losing my 16-month-old daughter...I feel like she keeps my blood flowing through my veins. Every day we wake up, the first thing I do is hug her when I take her out of her bed. It's also the last thing I do before she lays down to go to sleep...I feel like I can never give her enough love. If anything happened to her, I don't think I could live...I think my heart would just give up. My thoughts are with you and your family.
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~* Jen *~

Pink Lady Constrictors

Dude.........words cant even begin to amount to how badly I feel for you and your family. I am not going to say I know what it must be like....

I am terribly sorry and wish you & your family all the best.......

Jared Horenstein
R.P.R.

{ head hung in sorrow }

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Even in our sleep, pain which cannot forget
falls drop by drop upon the heart,
until, in our own despair,
against our will,
comes wisdom
through the awful grace of God.

~Aeschylus

I appreciate you giving your time to serve!
I think cops should be held accountable for carelessness......or in this case flat stupidity.
I have not read this whole thread so it might have already been stated, but all that had to be done was to call game and fish. IT would have been taken care of and the boy would be alive, the snake would be out of the tree and we would not be talking about this.
So arry for the family's loss. I too am a parent, I could not imagine what they are going through. It was bad enough losing my 28 year old brother back on May 28. My prayers are with them!
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Brian Oakley
Phoenix, Arizona
BrianOakley@qwest.net

I am sitting here at my desk, with tears streaming down my face.
I rushed out of the house this morning without the usual hugs and kisses to my boys because I was afraid they might cause me to miss the early train that I needed to catch to make it to one of the usual "important" meetings at work.
I am so sorry for you and your family's loss.
Thank you for the poignant reminder of what is truly "important".
BRGDS,
A

>

I second that... very sorry to hear about this story and also yours... my daughter is about 16 months old now, and I can't imagine living through what you have... thank you for taking the time to post this...

our thoughts are with you and your family...

Regards,
Bristen.
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___________________________
www.RoyalGemReptiles.com

in my above post, I meant to quote the following:

>>Thank you for the poignant reminder of what is truly "important".
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___________________________
www.RoyalGemReptiles.com

THE OKLAHOMAN (Oklahoma City, Oklahoma) 08 August 07 Snake was no rattler (Jennifer Griswold)
Noble: A police bullet that killed a small boy last week had been aimed at a black rat snake, a Norman animal control officer said Tuesday.
After the shooting on Friday that killed Austin Haley, 5, Norman's animal control department was called to collect and store the dead snake, Noble City Manager Bob Wade said.
Noble doesn't have an animal control officer, he said.
The snake has been frozen and stored for investigators, Norman Police Chief Phil Cotton said.
The incident started when Noble police officers responded to a call from a resident who thought a rattlesnake had slithered up into a birdhouse.
One of the two shots fired by police hit Austin while he was out fishing with his grandfather. His funeral is today.
Noble Police Chief Ben Daves said the city has been without an animal control officer for about a month, so police responded.
The Noble Police Department's Police and Procedures Manual says "firearms may be used to destroy an animal that represents a threat to public safety.”
The manual states "firearms shall not be discharged when it appears likely that an innocent person may be injured.”
The three officers involved in the shooting are on paid administrative leave pending the outcome of investigations by Noble and the OSBI.
The names of the officers involved have not been released.
In the meantime, the seven officers remaining on the police force are working overtime to cover the shifts, Daves said.
About black rat snakes
"I can't say they wouldn't bite, but they're not venomous,” said Mark Howery, a state wildlife biologist. Their other traits include:
•Common in Oklahoma.
•Adept at climbing.
•Often confused with bull snakes, water snakes, diamondback rattlesnakes or cottonmouths because of their color pattern. They may mimic rattlesnake behavior.
•Eat birds, small wildlife.
Snake was no rattler