Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I was trying to have a variety of frogs in a 90 gallon tank. I have decided that out of the frogs, I want to have a collection of
Dendrobates Lamasi
Dendrobates Leucomelas
Dendrobates Ventrimaculatus
Dendrobates Auratus
Dendrobates Azureus
Dendrobates Tinctorius
Dendrobates Truncatus

I was recommended to have 3-4 D. leucomelas and 6 D. Vents. What do you think would be the best combination of frogs, consdiering that would be in the same environment and must be social with each other. I'm not trying to cross-breed them or anything as this is "frowned upon." I'm not even sure if they can cross-breed if they can, these are for my personal collection and I'm not interested in making money off them.
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-_^

Maybe you should look into some of the E.'s and P.'s too. Tricolors, Bicolors, Vitatus, Terribilis', etc are all extremely pretty and bold frogs. If you were to do that you wouldn't even have to worry about the interbreeding problem.

Try out for example:
Tincs
Bicolors
Vents/Imitators

With that Trio of types you would have an awesome assortment along with the possiblity of breeding them successfully as well. Anyway you go, you are gonna have huge amounts of fun getting all of that put together and I am sure it will look awesome. Be sure to send pics when you get some of it together.

Cliff

>>I was trying to have a variety of frogs in a 90 gallon tank. I have decided that out of the frogs, I want to have a collection of
>>Dendrobates Lamasi
>>Dendrobates Leucomelas
>>Dendrobates Ventrimaculatus
>>Dendrobates Auratus
>>Dendrobates Azureus
>>Dendrobates Tinctorius
>>Dendrobates Truncatus
>>
>>I was recommended to have 3-4 D. leucomelas and 6 D. Vents. What do you think would be the best combination of frogs, consdiering that would be in the same environment and must be social with each other. I'm not trying to cross-breed them or anything as this is "frowned upon." I'm not even sure if they can cross-breed if they can, these are for my personal collection and I'm not interested in making money off them.
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>>-_^
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Thanks and Gig Em,
Cliff
0.2.1 Sipiwlini Tinc's

Hm....That is a nice combination. Will they get in each other ways or are they completely compatible.
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-_^

In a tank as large as a 90 gallon you would not have a problem. Keep in mind that most of the larger frogs (i.e. Tincs) will stay at the bottom most of the time, while the smaller frogs (Imitators/Vents) will be climbing most of the time. I wouldn't think the larger frogs would try to eat the thumbnails but you may want to ask someone with more experience than me before actually doing this. I am 99% sure that I have read a few posts of people sucessfully keeping large and thumbnail Darts together.

As far as the different types of larger frogs, just make sure you make it a combo of D.'s, E.'s, or P.'s rather than 2 D.'s, etc. If you did keep the same type in there and got eggs you would probably get Baby Fever and then be upset when needing to discard them. However, you could get away with combining the same type, I just wouldn't recommend it.
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Thanks and Gig Em,
Cliff
0.2.1 Sipiwlini Tinc's

Hm.....not taking that risk of a big frog and a small frog. I had african bull frog, they were huge tadpoles, soon they grew into small frogs and one were smaller then the other. One day, that small frog just mysteriously disapear. I'm not sure that bullfrog are cannabalistic, but its a sad sad world when that happens =(
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-_^

You haven't seen sad until you have seen a Pac-Man Frog eat another Pac-Man Frog. Those things are seriously canabilistic and do not even care if they are about to eat one almost their own size.
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Thanks and Gig Em,
Cliff
0.2.1 Sipiwlini Tinc's

i knew that frog like bull frogs would but wasn't sure if darts would eat eachother....

Aren't imitators way to small compared tinc's? i was just wondering... i love both spiecies and think they'd look cool together but would the imitators be eaten by the others? strainge guestion but just wondering.

k

I touched up on this on the response to the other post, but to be honest I truely dont know. I would definately ask someone with experience before attempting to put Thumbnails in with larger frogs. I was more off just showing the different possibilities of a multi-Dart species setup. Rather than putting in a bunch of frogs that could interbreed, there are other options. I said Vents/Imitators in the post due to the fact that they would not breed with the larger frogs and didn't really think about the size/being eaten possibilities.

The only major problem that I can really think of is that the larger frogs would very possibly hog the feeding time. Plus you would need to feed 2 different sizes of FF's/etc (Hydei and Melongastors). As I said before, I am sure someone out there has done this sucessfully so I would definately talk to someone with experience first.
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Thanks and Gig Em,
Cliff
0.2.1 Sipiwlini Tinc's

i was just very interested in this and will look into it more and post about it and ask if other have done it.
thanks.

k

Adult darts aren't cannibalistic, although sometimes the tadpoles are. They all take fairly small food items--a lot smaller than a vent or an imitator. However, other kinds of competition can occur. I'm not a "mixer" myself and have never even tried it. The few successes I've read about are done by people with a lot of experience.
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Patty
Lost River, Idaho

4 D. auratus blue
3 D. galactonotus pumpkin orange splash back
5 D. imitator
4 D. leukomelas
4 D. pumilio Bastimentos

Is dendrobates a genus or a species? The definition of a species is that all animals within it can interbreed and the offspring are not sterile. So are Dendrobates Phyllobates and Epipedobates (I probably spelled something wrong) species or genus'?

Dendrobates is the genus name. The second name such as imitator, leukomelas, etc. is the name of the species. Anything following the species name is the variety or morph.
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Patty
Lost River, Idaho

4 D. auratus blue
3 D. galactonotus pumpkin orange splash back
5 D. imitator
4 D. leukomelas
4 D. pumilio Bastimentos

First of all let me say that I have no intention of buying one of these or any other hybrid, but I have seen on websites people advertising Tinctorius Azureus crosses If D. Tinctorius and D.Azureus are two different species does that mean that the crosses are sterile like a Mule, beefalo, or liger?

Not all hybrids are sterile. Azureus and tincs are quite closely related, more so than tincs and imitators, for instance. Breeding habits are similar, as well. The off spring would be fertile. On the other hand, something like tincs and imitators are more distantly related. Due to their totally different breeding habits, they would be very unlikely to hybridize at all. Mules (donkey X horse crosses) are sterile because there is a discrepancy in the number of chromosomes between the donkey and horse. The 3 extra chromosomes from the donkey sperm have no equivalents to pair within the horse's ova, so that all mules are sterile females. Beefalo is a cross between two different genera, (Bos and Bison), so are even more distantly related. There are exceptions to the rule that different genera don't interbreed.

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Patty
Lost River, Idaho

4 D. auratus blue
3 D. galactonotus pumpkin orange splash back
5 D. imitator
4 D. leukomelas
4 D. pumilio Bastimentos

This does not make since here is the logical definition of species from websters collegiate dictionary: A class of individuals having common attributes and designated by a common nam; specif., a logical division of genus or more comprehensive class. Alright that is fine but here is the strict biological definition by the same dictionary: Subgenus and above subspecies or variety;a group of animals or plants which possess i common one or more distinctive characteristics and do or may reproduce. Here is the is how Steve mack post-doc in molecular andcell biology says you can identify if two animals are in the same species:"Two individuals (of opposite sexes) can be said to be of the same species only if they are able to reproduce naturally, and their offspring are not sterile." There are similar definitions in books like easy outlines: genetics and several other books with titles I can't remember. This means that while in basic terms you can call the each individual type (tincs azureus etc.) species but this in a biological sense is not the true species name so there must be another way in which this can be broken down. Sorry to bug everyone with the long post this is just something I found interesting.

I have heard from a guy that has been into dartfrogs a lot longer then myself that he knows of a person that has a pair of Costa Rican D.Auratus and a pair of P.Vittatus in a 10g tank and he hasn't had any problems yet.They come from the same general area in Costa Rica.Some day I want to try a 2 species set up like that.I do it soon with the one's I have now,haven't decided yet. Godd luck with your adventure.
Mark W.

Please stop before you kill too many frogs. You are new, as is apparent by your posts. There are numerous reasons why you shouldnt do anything like what youre attempting. Differing requirements for the different types of frogs, competition, territoriality, interbreeding, etc. People who have kept frogs for 10 years dont attempt what youre thinking about doing, and for very good reasons. If it could be easily done, or accomplished without dire consequences for the frogs, people would already be doing it. Read, re-read, then read again EVERY POST ON THIS BOARD, INCLUDING THE ARCHIVE. Then, get yourself some auratus, put them in a well designed tank, and proceed as you gain knowlege of the animals.

I dont know about reading eveyr post out there, some are very stupid, i was probibly the thread starter

But basicly like divegod said, if it was as easy as just putting them in the tank, we all here would have done that. They can be very territorial, some may not be some may be. It can be a specie trait, or just there own personality. Do a search for mixing (and other words along that line) and se what you find. although the search wont let you do it by only one forum.

aj
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Click Here to see my vivarium and steps on how to make a basic vivarium UPDATED 7.18.03 Now complete! All that is needed are some New River Tincs!

kungfu28181: My god. You are insane. -Mon Jun 30 21:41:05

90 gallons allows for much more possibilites than the normal 10 gallon setup. One of the main reasons for so many posts about anti-co-habitation is the assumption that 99% of Dart keepers will start off with a very small setup. Rushing off saying "Please stop before you kill too many frogs" is a little extreme. A better step would be to insure that the new frogger understands the importance of setting up the tank properly and all the hazards/etc to watch out for. IMO, starting off with a smaller setup (i.e 10 or 30 gallon) is better for this exact reason. You can learn how to set it up and start over without too much trouble. Then later on the larger setup will be easier to get right the first time.

As far as the Co-Habitation goes, many people on this forum have sucessfully kept different types together in a large enough setup. What people have the most concern over has been Cross-Breeding.
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Thanks and Gig Em,
Cliff
0.2.1 Sipiwlini Tinc's

well cross breeding is the main concern. It would be better to start off with a smaller tank for different frogs and understand how they co-exist before dumping them all into one big tank. But i personally dont know of any one with a tank mixture of more then one dart specie. The only tank i have seen like that is on doylesdartden, im not saying there isnt any one, i just havent read/saw one.

aj
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Click Here to see my vivarium and steps on how to make a basic vivarium UPDATED 7.18.03 Now complete! All that is needed are some New River Tincs!

kungfu28181: My god. You are insane. -Mon Jun 30 21:41:05

Absolutely understood about the size of the tank. The previously expressed concerns are still valid. Dave Doyle has one pic where hes got two species in the same tank, but the species in question are juveniles, so arent likely to interbreed. Yes, some people have done it successfully. Very experienced froggers have done it successfully. For a newbie, youre just asking for problems, and frog deaths. THERE ARE A LOT OF GOOD REASONS FOR NOT MIXING SPECIES, NOT JUST INTERBREEDING. Its a bad idea generally, and especially so for a newbie.

I totally agree with you. I should have considered that he is obviously new to Darts. Personally, if I had a 90 gallon setup I would end up putting a Colony of Leuc's in there. So even though I was preaching one thing, I would have done the total opposite anyway. Colonies seem to look better in my eyes.
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Thanks and Gig Em,
Cliff
0.2.1 Sipiwlini Tinc's

I attempted to mix azureus and imitators, for I found a Dutch website that gave an example vivarium containing these two species. The result was an almost dead azureus. The fact was my very bold imitators were bullying the azureus for food. Quite to the contrary of what you would expect. The 2 azureus are still rehabbing in a 2 1/2 gallon tank, until I think it is a good time to put them into their new home.

I was foolish to attempt this mix to begin with. Both species come from 2 different parts of South America, and would NEVER have the opportunity to cohabitate in nature. If this is your first set-up, think of starting with leucs (which are amazing frogs) or terribilis. With a 90 gallon, you could have quite a colony...just make sure they're the same species!
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David Knight
Tempe, AZ

D. imitator
D. leucomelas
P. terribilis
D. azureus
D. tinctorius (Alanis)

i was looking around the other day and i found this: www.aaronsfrogfarm.com/intheworks.htm look all the way down to the bottom of the page and read the caption.

I dont plan on putting any thing but flies and darts in my tank, but would that speci actully work in there or does the guy not know what he is talking about???????

aj
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Click Here to see my vivarium and steps on how to make a basic vivarium UPDATED 7.18.03 Now complete! All that is needed are some New River Tincs!

kungfu28181: My god. You are insane. -Mon Jun 30 21:41:05

Aaron has been raising darts successfully for YEARS. I wouldnt presume to tell him how to do anything for his darts. BUT, BUT, BUT, this is NOT a recommended practice for everyone. Some have successfully raised darts and geckos together in a single tank. Usually, its a tank that is quite large, with all the requisite microhabitats for each species, and theyre both species that the breeder has experience with (also, both are NOT wc. Usually, theyre offspring that the breeder has kept back. Being wild caught brings in a whole other range of issues). One thing to keep in mind, and I have no idea if this applies to Aarons set up, is that species have a range in which they can survive. THis range may overlap that of another species, but may not be optimal for either. So, although it CAN be done by experienced froggers, that says nothing about whether it SHOULD be done by those of us who are less experienced. Personally, I would just be happy to get every species that I keep to breed consistenly. Then, MAYBE, Id try something like this. MAYBE. Just keep in mind that what were talking about are very fragile little creatures whose habitat is either gone, or rapidly disappearing. These arent leopard geckos were talking about here......

Let me first say that I am normally against mixing. But, with experience and caution it can be done successfully. I've done it myself with this same species. Mourning geckos (Lepidodactylus lugubris)are very small, love humidity, and are a parthenogenetic species which reproduce quite readily. I've found that they spend most of their time "cleaning up" the flies that have escaped my frogs and headed for higher areas of the viv.

I only mix captive bred animals that:
1. are captive bred
2. have been in my care long term
3. will be housed in very large enclosures

I believe that the number one risk of mixing is disease and parasite introduction.

And yes, Aaron is a very experinced keeper who does know what he is talking about.

Donn