Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi all,

Finally ridded my computer of that damn windows worm, so I can get back on-line (obviously - duh, Will!). Wow, having to quit the internet cold turkey for a week really sucks!

Anyway, this is my adult male amelanistic albino eastern kingsnake. This snake was reportedly hatched in a NYS pet shop. I don't know if parents ever produced albinos again, or anything for that matter. This boy has a very thin, high chain pattern in light yellow. His pattern resembles the northern type easterns I keep and have seen, although I know nothing of the wild locale where his ancestors were collected. I also do not know if he is related to the NERD strain amelanistic albino easterns. He does have red flecks dorsally, like some of the NERD animals, but he does not have the copper cast dorsally like I have heard KEV's strain can develop.

He is about four years old and bred for the first time this year. He hooked up with that wide-chained aberrant orange female I posted last week. Got 5.5 healthy babies with extreme variability in the color and pattern department. Most are thin-chained, with shades of black and orange, but one male is thin-chained black and white snake that resembles the SC animals I have seen. Another male is a very high, thin-chained black and red snake. Never seen anything like this dude. I'll try to get picks of the babies once they start eating. Thanks for looking and reading my rambles.

Will Still

Here is a shot that illustrates his lateral chain pattern better. Thanks!

Will

>>Here is a shot that illustrates his lateral chain pattern better. Thanks!
>>Will

very nice!

Hey Terry,

How's it going Bud? How was the big show, just couldn't make it down this year? Some day I'll learn to make my teacher's summer checks last until mid-August (ha, ha).

Will

If it was hatched in a pet store and no one knows anything of it's locality, how can you be sure it is pure eastern king?

Saw the same thing several years back, was in a pet shop and saw an animal that didn't look like an amel cal king but looked close to an eastern. It was labled albino eastern king. When I asked the worker (owner was out to lunch), I was told, I am not sure where we got it, I think someone caught it and brought it in. When I came back and asked the owner, he said it was a cal king x eastern someone locally had produced and brought in to use in trade toward a ball python. So with out ineage, it would be hard for me to trust it's purity.

D

I purchased the snake from a dealer who bought it from the pet shop. It was guaranteed at the time that this animal was was a pure eastern king. That guarantee, however, really doesn't mean too much to me. What is important to me is the snake's appearance. There is no pattern or scalation evidence in the albino, or his het offspring to indicate that this animal was crossed with another albino common king a few generations back. Is that 100% guarantee of purity? Nope!

I know easterns, I've been keeping them since 1982 and this snake APPEARS to be a textbook eastern kingsnake without the black pigment. In a side by side scalation comparison, this boy is identical to my known pure easterns, again good evidence, but not 100%.

What it unfortunately comes down to is that I will never know 100%. I can live with this as I am confident, because of my experience with this sub-species, that it is a true amel eastern. But being confident and being 100% sure are two different things obviously. So, if I ever offer snakes from this albino for sale, I will tell my potential customer everything I know about the lineage of this animal. It will then be up to the individual to look at the snakes and consider the info that I provided to decide on their own.

Thanks for bringing this up, it needs to be discussed.

Will

I am glad that you didn't blast a reponse defensively as many would have. Your honesty in stating that you can't be sure it is 100% pure is very commendable. Too many persons in this hobby would have just made some off the wall story rather than doing as you have. Ulitimately, it is like you stated, if you are happy with the animal and it or it's future offspring are represented honestly, then that is all that matters. We can only hope your buyers will do the same.

I do say this, from what I can see in the pics it looks like an eastern king, much more so than the other "amel" easterns being sold the last 3 years.

d

Breed it to the animals that Tom C has or their offspring. If the babies are normal then they are different strains of albino and therefore likely a cal king cross. If they come out albino then this is likely a true chain. Yes, its possible that ANOTHER strain of albino chain occurs, so you could also breed it to a cal king albino.....and test it that way as well. Those trials would be well worth you time as this COULD be a real find and not just a "possible hybrid".Jeff

If you breed either this line (or Tom's) to an albino cal-king, it would prove it isn't and got normals, it would prove it isn't a cal-king hybrid. (It could be another hybrid, possibly, though.) If you got albinos, it would NOT provew that it IS a hybrid. It would prove that it is possible since the gene is allelic. That could just be a coincidence and not hybridization.

Breeding it to Tom's would prove that it is or isn't allelic with Tom's. That wouldn't verify either line. If they are allelic, try either line with the above test. If they aren't, try both lines with the above test...lol.

Tom's MAY look so off because they adults, so I've been told, came from an area of intergredation. If this is the case, it isn't a hybrid (per say), but it may not be a "pure" chain, either. This is kinda what happened with the albino speckled kingsnakes - for the few out there familiar enough with that line to see the similarities.

I'd love to see the founder adults and proof that they are the actual founders before I can make up my mind to even think about this too much. I don't make no claims as to anything in this post other than those stated as my own opinions (e.g., they lines don't look QUITE right to me). No bashing meant to any of the breeders that represent them honestly.

Good thread, guys!
KJ

With all the different possibilities and all the different allele combinations the odds of 2 ssp having the albino gene in the EXACT same place are long. You are correct though,Jeff

Let me start by saying I hate hybrids and Reptiles magazine, BUT Glenn Fankhauser (1996) wrote that he bred a snow corn to an albino cal-King and got ALBINOS! Different genera, but the albino mutation is at the same loci. Just dumb luck, I guess. Odd how that works out when there are still nonallelic forms of albinism in some subspecies, isn't it?
KJ

Fankhauser, G. 1996. "Snake hybrids: An interesting way to create diversity." in Reptiles, pp. 48-54.

That could also be a case of a corn/king hybrids where one was 90% corn and one was 90% cal king. Jungle corns have been bred so much this is not unlikely.
There is also the ghost mex mexXalterna which came from the breeding of a normal mex mex to a normal alterna. They were just making hybrids and the babies came out double homozygous for ghost. What are the chances of that since this was before Dan Johnson's hypo and anery Black Gap alterna and there are no hypo or anery mex mex out there still, that I know of.

>>That could also be a case of a corn/king hybrids where one was 90% corn and one was 90% cal king. Jungle corns have been bred so much this is not unlikely.

This was back in 1993, so I think it IS unlikely. Possibly, yes, good point! I just don't think it is the most likely answer that long ago.

BUT, if you are correct, that proves my point that hybrids eventually get misrepresented, doesn't it?

>>There is also the ghost mex mexXalterna which came from the breeding of a normal mex mex to a normal alterna. They were just making hybrids and the babies came out double homozygous for ghost.

That was Jim Kane, I believe. I also believe that it is a SIMPLE recessive trait and not a double recessive that they call the ghost hybrid mexmex. Soo, this is no more unlikely than the example I gave. I'm VERY glad you brought it up. It shows another case of an allelic mutation in animals that aren't of the same subspecies.

Very good supportive evidence. Thanks!
KJ

I have these ratsnakes that were to be f1 "double hets"that ended up as triple hets. There are several occurances of multiple morphs forming in the same genetic lines....tells us we still have ALOT to learn about these genetics,Jeff

The Whitesided Blackratsnake (aka Licorice stick/Miskimmon) and the Whitesided Everglades (aka Ghost Glades/McQuade) are allelic.

Linked as in being closely location on the same chromosomes so that the two genes are inherited as a "packet?" If so, do you have some examples of a true "linkage" like this that I'm not aware of. I'm sure it is out there (even if we don't see it), but the only example that MAY be of two simple recessive genes that are closely linked would be anerB and axanthic (or is it just hypoxanthic?) in cornsnakes. That's the ONLY case I can think of where the two genes, if they are separate AND simple recessive) behave linked linked genes that are moderately lose together on the chromosome.

Or are you using "linked" as a generic term for meaning snakes that have one color/pattern mutation tend to have another for one reason or another regardless of if they are on the same chromosome or not? If this is what you mean, I agree completely. I can think of a number of cases. It seem like whatever caused that mutation affected other genes for color and pattern, too, so mutations can be "bundled" together. neat....and good point. We should probably use another term since "linked" has a different, more specific, meaning in this case.

Cool discussion. Thanks for the thoughts and any info.
KJ

There are many instances that a 2nd phenotypic recessive gene occurs within the same small breeding group. YES, they are more likely to be inbred and there is always that greater chance, but if you think of the probability of a SINGLE gene vs.DOUBLE or triple genes within the same breeding group the odds back up the hypothesis. This doesnt always happen naturally as we often selective breed morph to morph. I suggest EXTRA precautions regarding outcrossing in these strains(naturally occuring double morphs) as WHO KNOWS what other genes can so easily be BUNDLED alongside phenotypic expression. As a community I think we should be aware of "potential"problems as inbreeding will not increase the "inbreeding factors" by 2 but likely by 4!! Yet for some this is a good thing,lol,Jeff

I'm a firm believer in the fact that inbreeding concentrates the good genes as well as the bad genes....lol.

That's my hope anyway. I've told my Uncle Daddy this, too.

KJ

as does my aunt/mother-in-law ;-0

Dean

I purchased the snake from a dealer who bought it from the pet shop. It was guaranteed at the time that this animal was was a pure eastern king. That guarantee, however, really doesn't mean too much to me. What is important to me is the snake's appearance. There is no pattern or scalation evidence in the albino, or his het offspring to indicate that this animal was crossed with another albino common king a few generations back. Is that 100% guarantee of purity? Nope!

I know easterns, I've been keeping them since 1982 and this snake APPEARS to be a textbook eastern kingsnake without the black pigment. In a side by side scalation comparison, this boy is identical to my known pure easterns, again good evidence, but not 100%.

What it unfortunately comes down to is that I will never know 100%. I can live with this as I am confident, because of my experience with this sub-species, that it is a true amel eastern. But being confident and being 100% sure are two different things obviously. So, if I ever offer snakes from this albino for sale, I will tell my potential customer everything I know about the lineage of this animal. It will then be up to the individual to look at the snakes and consider the info that I provided to decide on their own.

Thanks for bringing this up, it needs to be discussed.

Will

......it specifically says DON'T DOUBLE CLICK. oops!

Hey Will

Next year I will have to peel a baby or two from from that animal. As far as that animal or Terry's and others having Cal King in them I seriously doubt it. They look to real and to breed those big fat bands out would take quite some time (not to mention striping that creeps up in Cals). I was cautious on these as well but Terry and I researched the hell out of these things and came to the conclusion they are in fact legit. Also Kevin Mcurly (NERD) sold hets up and down the east coast to petshops and thats more than likey thats where Wills animal came from .
Keith

Correct me if I am wrong in my understanding, but aren't the ones being sold over the past few years from a supposed WC animal in close proximity to the University of Tenn or some other highly poulated area in Tennessee (that is what I was told)? Could it be that it was an escaped amel cal king? I have never seen the founding adult.

Second theory, do the easterns and blacks integrade where the original adult was captured? If so, then maybe the original was an integrade and that kind of throws it's looks off a little to me.

The animal Will posted has the "chain banding" that you expect to see from easterns, however, all the others I have seen advertised have maybe two to three chain bands and the rest are bands like a cal king. I also remember that when they first sarted being advertised 3-4 years ago, the babies being sold now don't look like the original off spring. The first clutches I remeber seeing on K.com classifieds WERE thick banded. Sorry, these new babies look nothing like the originals, the originals looked like easterns x cals.

I am not convinced that breeding the large cal king bands out would be that difficult. Any amels of the "nitida" line would have had somewhat thinner bands, that bred to an eastern would (IMHO) result in hets that would closely resemble easterns.

I have asked several breeders over the last few years their thought on them and so far, very few have said "yep, looks like an eastern" most say, it looks a little off for an eastern.

Lastly, sorry for the long post and I will not repsond to flames or blasts, I am really curious of others thoughts on these and wanted to express my thoughts.

d

Keith pretty well exhausted me with his challenges earlier (LOL!) so I'm just gonna be brief with this reply. A search of the archives might turn up more detail for you.

1) I have one of the original daughters of the wild-caught albino X an eastern chain king, and it looks nothing like a cal king and everything like a chain king, with all the variability that goes with them.

2) to follow up on 1), if you've seen chain kings ranging from the "classic" shiny black and white, relatively narrow but uniformly banded variety to the south georgia variety and all points in between, you know they vary hugely. My first chain king was from norfolk, va. area. and was of the classic type. Yet when I joined stretchx and howie s and a few other forum friends for a hunt in that area last year, the chain kings we found were very wide-banded, had numerous broken bands, and were sorta...well, just sorta dirty. So saying something is "sorta" characteristic of a chain king certainly can include any number of natural variants, since few of the animals actually show a classic form or ALL the typical characteristics one mght expect.
3) kevin mccurley at NERD who obtained the original albino compared it to his own chain kings when it arrived, because he wasn't sure what to expect. He says it compared exactly to normals he had. He told me as recently as a month or so ago that he's 100% confident it was a chain king. I've got that early f1 animal, i've seen pix of others, and i've seen animals hatched 3-4 yrs ago, and I've not seen any wide-banded ones that hinted at californiae. If anyone who's referred to animals like that can provide a pic i'd sure be interested in seeing it. I'm always open to revising my opinions.
4) the animal came from a collector in the chattanooga area. there's an intergrade range along the tenn-NC border. there was talk of it being collected on a riverbank, the original stories said the chattanooga river but there is NO chattanooga river! There's a chattooga river, flowing from W. NC south to form the border between GA and SC a ways east of the TENN border, but wait! there's a SEOND chattooga river elsewhere in the region, believe it or not! So the precise details are lost, but the animal came from a guy who also sold kevin "normal" chain kings that LOOKED like chain kings..who knows, he might have been collecting in GA, or SC, for ex. (after all, getula is reportedly uncommon in east tennessee, but more common in ga., s.c., etc....if you were collecting for $, where might you go?)
Like Will, i say no, the authenticity can't be proved, but boy, there's enough evidence to convince me, and like will, I always point out there've been challenges (like keith's) but rather thorough investigations (short of DNA, etc) have convinced almost everyone. Call 'em chain kings with an asterisk if you want, the sad truth is that since people started hybridizing the purity of ALMOST everything can unfortunately be appended with that asterisk.

A good discussion...

Terry

>>Correct me if I am wrong in my understanding, but aren't the ones being sold over the past few years from a supposed WC animal in close proximity to the University of Tenn or some other highly poulated area in Tennessee (that is what I was told)? Could it be that it was an escaped amel cal king? I have never seen the founding adult.
>>
>>Second theory, do the easterns and blacks integrade where the original adult was captured? If so, then maybe the original was an integrade and that kind of throws it's looks off a little to me.
>>
>>The animal Will posted has the "chain banding" that you expect to see from easterns, however, all the others I have seen advertised have maybe two to three chain bands and the rest are bands like a cal king. I also remember that when they first sarted being advertised 3-4 years ago, the babies being sold now don't look like the original off spring. The first clutches I remeber seeing on K.com classifieds WERE thick banded. Sorry, these new babies look nothing like the originals, the originals looked like easterns x cals.
>>
>>I am not convinced that breeding the large cal king bands out would be that difficult. Any amels of the "nitida" line would have had somewhat thinner bands, that bred to an eastern would (IMHO) result in hets that would closely resemble easterns.
>>
>>I have asked several breeders over the last few years their thought on them and so far, very few have said "yep, looks like an eastern" most say, it looks a little off for an eastern.
>>
>>Lastly, sorry for the long post and I will not repsond to flames or blasts, I am really curious of others thoughts on these and wanted to express my thoughts.
>>
>>d

>> he might have been collecting in GA

Great, that makes them hybrids or illegal. Put me down for some either way....lol.

Just joking. I don't want hybrids or anything that MIGHT be illegal. I just thopught it was funny saying that they might be from Georgia (even if there is no proof of it) in the wake of thr CO stuff...... I know I have a lousy sense of humor. So what?

>>>> he might have been collecting in GA
>>
>>Great, that makes them hybrids or illegal. Put me down for some either way....lol.
Actually, i've been told tennessee has had a ban on wild-caught stuff for decades, though it's less known. I assume the info i got was correct, but dunno. anyway, like i also said the original albino might have come from so. car. or no. car., and the (maybe) sad fact is, no one knows and I can't find a way to work back to the original collector to find out.

>>Just joking. ... I know I have a lousy sense of humor. So what?
actually, i liked the "uncle daddy" line you used earlier in this thread.

peace!
terry

I have posted a few url's below.

These old threads would scare me off for the two reasons mentioned.

I understand that it is possible these are not the same animals we have been discussing or the same line, but with the mixed up stories on where they originated from and the fact that they could be illegal or most likely hybrids scares me off. With the breeder mentioned in Camby's post having amels and lavendars in the first clutch, seriously, what are the odds of that happening. With those out there and the possibility they could have been bred to any other easterns would worry me. Guess I would have to wait until a more verifiable line came along.

Really unfortunate this may (I stress may) have happened to such a wonderful animal is really unfortunate.

http://forum.kingsnake.com/king/messages/12805.html

http://forum.kingsnake.com/king/messages/12776.html

The difference in the three-year-old threads you list below and the effort that's been made to simply get to the facts, the reuslts of which have been posted here much more recently, is the difference between Jerry Springer and 60 MInutes.

I realize different forum readers might draw different conclusions about the diffs between those two shows. LOL

Anyway, if you re-read those old posts, it's people speculating, "i heard this," "why won't he say where they came from," etc. rather than deciding to spend a couple of busy weeks digging out the truth, to the extent that's possible. If anything can be learned from this particular morph, it is that once someone expresses speculation, however wild, it will live forever and no matter how much research is done, how much information is provided going back to the source, the old rumors will persist, people will repeat them again without seeing/caring about more current and more thorough information. It's why no one is satisfied with a correction in a newspaper-- the original mistake will pop up again and again.

If i sound frustrated, i am. I'm frustrated by people who leap to conclusions, whether on an issue like this, or more typically, who get an albino baby the year their a/c goes ouit during incubation so conclude that all albinos are temp-induced, or that their breeding results improved the year after they switched to corn cob as a substrate and that the corn cob is the causal agent. And I'm frustrated, sometimes, by the kids who come to the forum to ask how to care for an xxxx snake, or whether incubation temp determines gender in snakes, without bothering to do any research first. Not the best examlples maybe, but i think you know what i mean.

I'm a retired journalist. I put in more hours than you'd want to know trying to track the wild caught patriarch of the albino chain king strain i was working with. The collector couldn't be found. The person he sold it to could be. That person (kevin at NERD) presented a lot of compelling information. I talked to collectors, state game agents, and viewed info i didn't realize was available, generously provided by keith hillson. Each person can draw his own conclusion but information that was much more factual was presented, and it seems a shame to reprint a short 3-year old thread of anecdotal posts without acknowledging more thorough ifnormation.

Yes, the idea of albino and lavender babies out of the same snake seems implausible. So does the appearance of hypo and albino pyro babies out of the same single pair of animals. And before somebody pulls another 3-yr-old thread up to challenge those animals, a lot of work has gone into tracking down that story, establishing a timeline, confirming witnesses, etc., so please read the full archives first! Or speaking of coincidences, for 20 years, ending about 10 years ago, I bred birds, particularly the various color mutations of the Gouldian Finch. After decades of their having been bred in captivity, with NO mutations that affected the body color (the existing morphs affected specific head and chest areas only) TWO color mutations popped up, one yellow and one blue (the normal animal is green)--in two little Dutch villages 20 miles apart! The species was being captive bred throughout america, in australia, in europe, in south africa. DThe two mutations were very different--one altering pigmentation, the other altering feather structure which resulted in a color change to the eye. And they occur in the collections of people who might have been shopping in the same small grocery, yet who didn't know each other. Consider the odds.

I can't explain that. I can't explain the two pyro morphs. I can't explain the two chain king morphs--i don't even know whether they relate in any way to the strain of albino chain kings i was working with. But I think there's a lot we don't understand. In fact, when something looks implausible, that SHOULD trigger red flags and further investigation: More than once i've seen implausible breeding results, queried the breeder, and together we've realized there was another--far more plausible--explanation for the results. But that communion, that investigation, is what i'm talking about, that i'd like to see more of. And when it's been done, i hate to see it rendered useless when old info is presented. That's not in the spirit of advancing our understanding of our animals, and i think that's one of our goals here!

Sorry to get on my high horse. I don't mind people challenging ANYTHING. That's the scientific method, and it serves us all well. I just don't think science is served if we cite old speculation that's subsequently been debunked--or, at best, old challenges without including the reams of new information that's been added to that inquiry. So it's more the method i'm complaining about, than any specifics in this case.

WHEW...must go rest...cold pack on forehead....breathe deeply...in...out...

Peace
Terry

>>I have posted a few url's below.
>>
>>These old threads would scare me off for the two reasons mentioned.
>>
>>I understand that it is possible these are not the same animals we have been discussing or the same line, but with the mixed up stories on where they originated from and the fact that they could be illegal or most likely hybrids scares me off. With the breeder mentioned in Camby's post having amels and lavendars in the first clutch, seriously, what are the odds of that happening. With those out there and the possibility they could have been bred to any other easterns would worry me. Guess I would have to wait until a more verifiable line came along.
>>
>>
>>Really unfortunate this may (I stress may) have happened to such a wonderful animal is really unfortunate.
>>
>>
>>http://forum.kingsnake.com/king/messages/12805.html
>>
>>http://forum.kingsnake.com/king/messages/12776.html