Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Regardless of how unjust the ban is, no one should break the law. Remember TPWD has an obligation to enforce it. I am strongly against any "civil disobedience." The law cannot be changed without action from the legislature unless a court challenge is successful. Any violations will only give the enforcement folks at TPWD more ammunition. The agency needs to understand that we are law abiding citizens from all walks of life who wish to have access to collect reptiles in a safe manner along roadways. I am sure that there are many herpers not even aware of the law so some people are bound to get warned or ticketed. It is apparent that Maj. Sinclair and others do not understand our avocation or our numbers. If he did I do not think he would be so opposed to road collecting. If he knew how conservation oriented we are maybe he would think twice. He would know that road collecting is a safe family activity for the many who don't have access to private land. For some reason he and others seem to believe that we should be treated differently from falconers and even fishermen. Maybe the actions of a very few have colored his view of the many. He would know that we support bag limits just like those for game fish. I hope that TPWD does not oppose coming legislative efforts to lift the ban. Perhaps it is wishful thinking on my part. Until this matter can be addressed by the legislature or possibly by the courts please obey the law. It is the best for all of us. Until then, If you want an "alterna" or other Texas herp. buy a captive bred animal or look on private land. It will be cheaper than being ticketed. Despite our dislike of this law we need to support the good things that TPWD does and there are many. I understand that many people are angry at the department including me but I love this state and its wildlife. I am disillusioned with some at TPWD but not all. If anyone wants to talk to me in detail about this call me at my law firm in San Antonio.
Richard Strieber

photography permits.

I do not intend to break the law, but I like to look at and photograph Reptiles, Amphibians, Insects, Birds, and Mammals.

I hope TP&W realizes that just because some of us are still out there it does not mean that we are breaking the law.

We are going through great lengths to secure private property to pursue our hobby. Some are having success, but most are not. Terrell county seems to be the receptive area. Obviously they are concerned about economic fallout in that area.

If they were willing to listen to herpers... But they consider us an insignificant fringe group of mostly poachers.. Or at least that is the impression I get after looking over the communications they have about us.

We need to change that attitude in the department, we need to be at the table with our concerns given consideration.

I think that by next session we will be there no matter what, but I think that it would help a lot if they would just meet with us now.

Lance

but why should they lance? we are freeky snakepeople. how in ANY way would it behoove them to talk with us? there is no us? or better yet we have no ONE voice, we cant get it together for numerous reasons ranging from commercial collection, to personal rights&freedoms, to selling cbb offspring, to differing attitudes and lifestyles sadly weve shown all that to them. therefore we(herpers)and our views about collection of ANY sort mean exactly DIP to "them" to quote black sabbath:THE MOB RULES!,AND ONTO PINK FLOYD WITH ITS US AND THEM NOW LETS GET BUSY!!!,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

I think you Texas folks are wishing and hoping someone in your legislature or TPWD will "change their mind" and lobby on your behalf to get things back to the good old days.

Reality check............AIN"T GONNA HAPPEN LIKE THAT!!!

The law is now passed, and it sure looks to me that the wardens are looking to enforce it. Time to start the process of determining the constitutionality of this law with a test case. Perhaps the attorney that started this thread will get the ball rolling and take the citation.

Focus on the fact that this law is plainly discriminatory. It is singling out a specific group of people from pursuing their sport on public lands. The falconry folks are exempt, and fisherman engage in their passion on public waters every day of the week. I really don't see much difference between public waterways and public roads/ROW. You need to be sniffing around for a judge that is somewhat sympathetic to you regarding the fairness in TPWD policy. Hopefully, you can find one in Terrel, Val Verde, or Brewster county that will toss these citations or give you some injunctive relief.

By the way.........I think a 200 herper night outing around Sanderson would get some publicity. Time to start throwing DOR's in the freezer. Everyone would have something for the wardens to inspect on the night of the big event. You could plainly make the point that you think this is a "stinky" law!

Steve,
No offense, but I don't think you really know exactly what we are doing, and in that respect your post is a little insulting. We know exactly HOW to change the law, but that does not guarantee that we will be successful in getting it changed.

You can help by joining HCU-TX.ORG.

Best
Joe

Joe........no offence taken, but all I see is a willingness on your part to "buy back" your access to public property. When you post about your willingness to pay more for a non-game permit(don't make me dig that post up) and now you are talking about a photography permit!!!???? TPWD is laughing and probably wondering how high will you go. It's all about money to these clowns. These guys are POLITICKS! You need to seek redress from the judicial branch of your government to squash these bugs.

You are right.......I don't know exactly what your strategy is. You have to be a paid member with password access to get into the inner realms of your HCU. You guys need to butch up a little bit and get on the attack mode before you see any money from this herper. All I see is a bunch of whiners thinking you can reason with a bunch of "ticks on the take"!!!............regards...........Steve G.

Steve,
So exactly how are they making any money the way it is now? They will lose money. A lot of folks won't be buying licenses.

Sure it's about money, but why aren't they capitalizing on it? The only one that made money on this deal was Hilderbran.

And all I see is a bunch of guys like you that talk the talk but won't put your money where your mouth is.

The way I see it is up to folks like you. If you guys don't pipe up, it ain't going to get done. I can't carry every one of you.

You probably don't care because you're out of state. Fine, ecept your state is next.
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Join HCU-TX.ORG http://www.hcu-tx.org

I respectfuly disagree. We got some legislators to help us on HB12 and I think we can get them to help us again. The fact that they need to be secretive to get this law passed in the first place is very telling, along with the fact that there has been virtually no public support for this law.

Wow..........You are really going to hit them hard, as you cut down from two to one trip per year.......LOL! Dude......That's still one too many trips from the viewpoint of TPWD. You don't really get it. You need to have civil disobediance to effectively make the law unenforcable. All you have to do is look at the best example to date: Lack of enforcement of our current immigration laws. Congress was actually battling to pass an amnesty bill this past session. This is civil disobedience taken to the max!

Civil Disobedience is for unjust laws that are being abusively enforced. This law IS unjust. However, I've not seen any abusive enforcement of this law so far.

The fact that TPWD has not issued a single citation (so far as we know) and only a few warnings (an none recently that I know of) works in our favor. Ideally, we will make it all the way to the next legislative session w/o a single citation (or at least non that stand up in court). Organized or individual CD could force their hand against us and result in charges that stick. In the eyes of some politicians, zero citations = useless law, whereas multiple citations = necessary law.

Believe me when I say that I we come out in full force for CD (even spend a couple of days in jail for contempt if needed) if TPWD ever decides to abusively enforce this law.

In the meantime, a large scale group event (WITHOUT any actual collection, but lots of cut walking and observation) along a well traveled stretch of road would not be a bad idea. However, the goal of such an activity should be to avoid any citations while showing that this law accomplishes none of the stated goals.

They can't issue any citations until after the Sept. 1. There is nothing to indicate that the law is already in effect except what they "say". Nothing in print.
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Join HCU-TX.ORG http://www.hcu-tx.org

For those suggesting civil disobedience. What do you think this will accomplish? My view is that it will only serve to give TPWD ammunition to use against herpers next legislative session. Civil disobedience may make you feel better but it will not get the law changed.
Richard Strieber

Richard wrote: "For those suggesting civil disobedience. What do you think this will accomplish? My view is that it will only serve to give TPWD ammunition to use against herpers next legislative session. Civil disobedience may make you feel better but it will not get the law changed."

I think CD would be completely counter productive right now. It MAY become appropriate at a later date IF the law starts being enforced abusively. Basically, if we start getting unjust tickets (for actions other that ACTUAL collection or admitted intent to collect) we may as well get them on our terms, in mass, with public attention, and with a concentrated effort to expose the abusive enforcement. AGAIN -no such abusive enforcement is currently occurring and I don't expect it in the future, so it is doubtful that CD will ever be appropriate for this law.

OTOH, a mass cut walking and observation event (without any collection and therefore no violation of current law and not really CD at all) could either demonstrate that TPWD can't and won't stop us from safely enjoying Texas ROWs (demonstrating that the law accomplishes nothing) OR cause TPWD to enforce it beyond the scope of the legislative intent by ticketing photographers and non-hunting sportsmen that are not creating a safety hazard (demonstrating bias and showing that change of the law and within TPWD is necessary). Also, if none of the participants get ticketed, it would make it difficult for TPWD to later justify busting a lone herper for doing the exact same thing.

I'm the one that first brought up the "civil disobedience" angle to fighting this law. At the time, I was expecting harsh enforcement and a campaign of orderly and respectful "civil disobedience" seemed to be an appropriate response to the expected abuse. However, the "harsh enforcement" and "abuse" never materialized. Instead, LE in the field have been respectful and professional (with only a few minor exceptions that I've heard about). In light of the current reality in the field, I agree that "civil disobedience" is not necessary or even appropriate.

Keep in mind also that "civil disobedience" (as I described and as it has been used historically) is NOT anti-LE and should not be confused with ignoring laws, lying, or abusing LE (actions and attitudes that I have NEVER supported and have repeatedly advised against). "Civil disobedience" is a time honored method (used by Ghandi, MLK, and many others) of openly opposing abusive enforcement of unjust laws while FULLY ACCEPTING arrest or citations and then fighting the unjust law and abusive tactics through the legal system. While I still believe that this law is unjust, the enforcement has NOT been abusive, therefore "civil disobedience" is not in order and would not be effective in the current environment.

No Post

I have personally posted a few photos and comments about technical or apparent violations of this law by myself and my sons as a means of testing enforcement attitudes and repeated promises from politicians and TPWD that discretion would be used in enforcement so as NOT to target rescue or photography efforts. Keep in mind that I never lied about any of these "violations" and I never denied the right of LE to take action against me (in fact, I hoped they would target me instead of some hapless herper who was not prepared for a court challenge).

My public "violations" along these lines have included rescue and release of one GBK, three box turtles, and various other herps. These have been publicly posted and explained. I have also tested enforcement by posing "apparent" violations by conducting photo sessions of legally captured herps on the road and ROW.

To date, there has been no response from LE about any of these "violations", despite the fact that LE has definitely seen my posts (in other words, LE passed all of my tests). Accordingly, there is no longer any reason IMHO for me or anyone else to continue with these types of public "violations". Of course, this is all subject to change IF LE becomes abusive and unfair in their enforcement practices (and I see no sign of that happening).

"They asked me if they could still walk the cuts, spotlight and take pictures, I said yes as long as they weren't collecting specimens or manipulating the wildlife for a better photo, or breaking any traffic laws, etc"

I take it that even if you just get in front of the animal to make it stop crawing, not even touching you have "manipulated" it. Now if you move it from road, or onto a better looking photo backdrop you have certianly "manipulated" it.

This new legislation is not good for any of us, even those that in the past have just taken pictures.

Lance

The TP&W document..

This seems to be somewhat discretionary. We should continue to monitor any enforcement efforts and modify our response accordingly.

Hypothetical actions and reactions:

IF LE cites a group of five herpers for a 30 minute photo shoot with flashes, cameras, macro-lenses, tripods, hooks, etc, we could make note of it and quietly fight the charges.

If LE cites single herper with nothing but a camera for snapping a few quick pics while incidentally touching or otherwise disturbing the animal, we could fight the charges loudly, publicly and possibly aggressively (depending on responses from higher ups at TPWD).

If TPWD publicly announces an intention to become more strict on applying HB12 to photographers, we could calmly build our case that reasonable photography of herps is no different than photographing birds (some critter might be disturbed but the harmful impact is minimal -actually, bird could be worse by scaring nesting birds away from nest sites)

IF TPWD covertly conducts a broad sting operation against people carrying camera at night in traditional herping locales, we could aggressive challenge it as unfair and abusive enforcement despite prior promises and practices of discretion. We might even reconsider a public civil disobedience campaign.

I doubt that anybody taking a picture will get a citation. I would think that they would prefer to do verbal warnings, and in some cases written warnings.

I do not see them wishing to put anything directed at a photographer in any sort of public record if they can avoid it. As it is the language of HB 12 has caused enough pain with the inverts and deferred enforcement for a review of legislative intent. And as time marches on they will likely have even more problems pop up without this law actually doing anything positive. It will change... It has to with the deferred enforcement alone, that can not stand.

Simply put when you rush something to the books without doing your homework you can end up with a mess you did not see coming.

Lance

If the photography angle were enforced, I would expect to find some staff photograpers for their magazine to be ticketed. A lot of the photos are taken on WMAs and public land. I guess they would all get a get out of jail free permit? What's good for the goose.......

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Todd Hughes

My reading of the law is that it does not prohibit photography or "manipulation". It prohibits "taking" or "intent to take." The warden's comment about manipulation is in my view incorrect. If someone is warned or cited for "manipulating" a herp. to get a better picture, that citation should be challenged.
Richard Strieber

The key is the definition of "hunt".
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Snakes of Hudspeth County, Texas

I agree. Since hunt here means to "persue with intent to take" I would not hesitate to block a snakes path by placing my foot in front of it or make one coil up by tapping it on the head with a straight stick; but not with a hook which could be mistaken as an attempt to take. I also would not pick up any snake, unless absolutely neccessary to save it from immenent danger and in that case I would take my lumps(run through the system but fight it in court) if I got busted. Those are just my personal thoughts and I wouldn't look down on anyone who chooses to take a more or less strict interpretation of the law as long as they weren't actually blatently collecting herps.

From the Texas Parks and wildlife code:

§ 1.101. DEFINITIONS. In this code:
(1) "Hunt" means capture, trap, take, or kill, or an attempt to capture, trap, take, or kill.
(2) "Catch" means take or kill and includes an attempt to take or kill.
(3) "Sell" means to transfer the ownership or the right of possession of an item to a person for consideration and includes a barter and an even exchange.
(4) "Wild," when used in reference to an animal, means a species, including each individual of a species, that normally lives in a state of nature and is not ordinarily domesticated. This
definition does not include exotic livestock defined by Section
161.001(a)(4), Agriculture Code.
(5) "Take," except as otherwise provided by this code, means collect, hook, hunt, net, shoot, or snare, by any means or device, and includes an attempt to take or to pursue in order to
take.

________________________________________________________________

Now from HB 12, the new law we all love:

Sec. 62.0031. HUNTING FROM PUBLIC ROAD OR RIGHT-OF-WAY
PROHIBITED. (a) Except as provided by Subsection (b), a person may not hunt a wild animal or bird when the person is on a public road or right-of-way.

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Snakes of Hudspeth County, Texas

The main problem with these is "intent".

LE does not know your intent to do something unless you do it, or say that you intend to do it. Anything else is nonsense. Arguments to the effect that, e.g., picking up a snake involves intent to collect are simply asinine. I've picked up a number of snakes in NM, haven't collected a single one.

I totally agree, Richard. I am outspoken sometimes, and frustrated as to the simple "why", but have always wanted to be up front and on the level. I do support reasonable bag limits, and I know HCU can help provide useful data to help TP&WD draft sound herping legislation. I also advocate keeping it legal out there, gals and guys!

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Todd Hughes

For many years I was careful to get legal keeping my license fees paid.I now consider the fine for breaking the law my new license fee payable on demand. If I am careful, I should only have to pay the new license fee every 20 years, so it works for me. Am I breaking the law? No, I am willing to pay any fine levied against me without a fuss. Considering inflation it should actually work in my favor. I will not be innocent or guilty of breaking the law, for me it will be no contest. My yearly pilgrimage to the desert will be unaffected so look for me; I will be wearing my usual tie died shirt driving my green Honda CRV, see you soon.......Sighthunter

PS I am curious how many other people are willing to give their honest perspective on the subject? I will know if I see you with your new bug hunting paraphernalia along the road cuts. However I have decided that I will no longer be using my trained Jackrabbits to find alterna.

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"Life without risk is to merely exist."

If you are saying you intend to collect herps along ROW's you are going to hurt everyone not just yourself. Lets work to change the law not violate it.
Richard Strieber

How do you know I do not have a terminal disease? You expect me to wait?!! Hold my breath? MAYBE THEY WILL JUST CHANGE THEIR MIND THE NICE GUYS THAT THEY ARE. Somehow I would like to catch a few more road herps before I die, my last hoorah, are you going to deny me that? You assume everyone has time to wait so you pound the computer key board with words of wisdom but you fail to see all sides of the issue. Does TP&W really care about you or me? Ok I'll wait but just make it quick!!!!!!!!!!!!
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"Life without risk is to merely exist."

I agree with you except I am not 100% opposed to civil disobedience; for me that depends on what the issue is. In this case, at this time I am opposed to civil disobedience. The ways I intend to protest this law.
1)Cut my trips from 2 per year down to 1 per year.
2)I will NOT hunt any private land other than that which I already own and that of other snakehunters who purchased land before this law went into effect.
3)When not on private land I will park safely and legally off the road and walk the cuts, practicing only 'in situ' wildlife photography.
4)Purchase as many supplies as I can(batteries, bulbs, lights, storeable foods, snacks and sodas) in California before I leave for TX.
5)Lastly I have been saving money considering buying a cheaper house in Alpine. I should have the money for the down payment in 2 years. I will definitly not buy one if the law doesn't change.

Actually, our country came about as a result of civil disobedience to unjust laws.

Every year more and more laws are passed which abridge non-harmful and/or non-destructive personal liberties.

I moved to Texas from upstate NY 36 years ago. I chose Texas because it allowed, even encouraged, individualism. Now that is disappearing. Why should people have to register their reptiles? Why should they have to pay annual fees for the right to own them? When was the last time a bank or convenience store was robbed at snake-point? Yet ownership of snakes is becoming more controlled than guns, dogs, cats or pretty much anything else. And when you register a gun, dog or cat the state does not have the right to come into your home at their pleasure and inspect your premises, yet in licensing your snakes they DO have such power.

Sorry, Richard. These new laws suck, and suck big time. They are unjust and unwarranted. The efforts of Joe et al. to work with the powers that be have come to naught.It is time for the herpers of the U.S. of A. to band together and start fighting back. Articles against herps are regularly puglihed on the front pages of our newspapers. Letters of rebuttal make the editorial page now and then. USFWS makes a bad bust and makes headlines; the truth makes the trash bin. You are an attorney so live for the law. I'm an old herper and just want to be left alone. I've never harmed anyone, nor have any of my animals. Yet I'm being criminalized by default. I'm not happy with this situation. If you want to fight these laws, I'll help as much as I can. If you want to hope that you can "talk it out" with the folks in power, I wish you luck but know where that will end up.

JH

is not for naught.... we're making progress.

You guys expect to wake up one morning and everything is back to normal? No, this isn't going to happen overnight, and we're making progress, real progress. It's not going to be evident to everyone all at once. There's a lot of things we just can't discuss on this forum.

Nobody ever said it was going to be easy. You have to be in this fight for the long haul. I'll tell you right now I'm dedicated to it.
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Join HCU-TX.ORG http://www.hcu-tx.org

The long haul is right. What HH and TPWD don't seem to understand is that we live for it. It's not about money and it's not about going somewhere else or finding another hobby. There is no subsitute. We can't stop fighting because we can't rest until it's fixed.

Hola, Todd.
That was a cruel post until I looked more closely and noticed that the splendida looked like a male. I've been searcing for 3 years for an adult female splendida (W. TX or SE NM preferred() and haven't seen a one. 5 found for me by others turned out to all be males. Oh, well, some things aren't meant to be.

Being left alone isn't the same as not calling attention to myself. I've always been open and up-front in the herp community but now I, like others, are becoming more silent in public. e.g. when was the last time someone posted about finding an alterna, or anything else worthwhile, on the forums? I'd be interested to see how many members HCU is pulling in from other states, since ALL states are being hit with new laws. I'm also interested in who is behind the push in all these states - I don't think they are coming up with these ideas on their own. Herpers seem to be focused on more than any other group.

HCU has pulled me in and you know I'm in Arkansas John.
Even If I didn't promote shows in Texas, I own property there and these new laws and the backhanded way HH pulled this stunt offends me and should offend every herper in the U.S.

Randal Berry

Well, since we started this here in our stomping grounds, we should build it up here until we have a grand united front from which to expand. Since I do not live anywhere else or own property anywhere else, it seems I should concentrate my efforts here. But noooooo, I am off towards Daytona tomorrow and will be spreading the word in Florida, to get something started there. I think that with the right people in place here, it will help convince people in other states to start there own branches and this tree will grow. I will be active in promoting HCU's agenda at as many Texas herp shows as possible, and in spreading the word in all the Master Naturalists, Natural History Museums, schools, and Scouting events that I am asked to lecture at. I just find it defeatist to not use what talents you have to change things that are not right about your passions in life. John, am I getting to you, lol! We will have to go herping sometime, and I can learn some things from you, and I will show you where the female splendies are!

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Todd Hughes

Look for me in Daytona Todd.
Randal

I've found a few this year in SE NM and in west TX (just east of El Paso past BP). If I'd have known someone wanted one, I could've let it hitch a ride with me back home.