Reptile & Amphibian Forums

How do you tell the difference between a normal albino cali and a lavender?

I recently got a new albino cali hatchling which was sold to me as a lav, however Im doubting the 'lav' part due to a) the very good price I paid, b) the lack of knowledge the breeder had on the genetics and c) the lack of lavender availablity in my area. However the more I look at the snake the more I wonder if it is a lav. My new hatchling is about a month old and very purple, with striking red eyes, in comparison to paler albino hatchlings Ive seen, but Im assuming this does not make her lav right?

The parents are both normal bandeds, and the past 2 clutches have produced all normals except 1 albino (lav?) in each clutch.

This has probably been brought up before, but I couldn't find it anywhere in the forum, so sorry if it's a repeat question.

It's all in the eyes.

As the color of the cal king before it would have been an albino or a lavender will affect the dark/light color of the albino or lavender.

They are about the same price...cheap.

Kerby...

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Lonesome Valley Reptiles
www.lonesomevalleyreptiles.com
Specializing In California Kingsnakes

Thanks for the reply! Still not 100% sure, they look in between those 2 pics you posted lol. Here are a couple of pics, just to get your professional opinion lol. Theyre both pretty accurate with the colour.

Lavender Albino (T )

The lavenders have a deeper red eye color (more ruby color)

The T- albino have a pinkish red eye color...

This is a T- amel (not what you have) do u see the difference in the eye color and the ground color?

Then you have some hypos (see pic below) with ruby eyes but a darker ruby color and a deeper more purple ground color... with time and exposure you learn to differentiate..

hope that helped

~ZF
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Royal ReptileZ

(T ) is suppose to read (T positive)

~ZF
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Royal ReptileZ

...you speak of, is responsible for the lavender in the sulfur lavender in the brooksi?? Right??
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

I gotta tell you Mark, to date I'm still not convinced!

I've seen obvious Floridana X Cali crosses at shows being sold as lavender brooks and I've seen the other, better known lavenders in comparison... it's my belief that there are crosses AND they are "pure" T positive amel Florida kings... is it possible that these two have been crossed... yes! but all this is up in the air and pure speculation at this point... not having definite proof, I can't convince myself of this (I may be Bias since these are primarily what I work with)

All Amel traits found in other kings have been "blamed" on cali influence...

Even when the Axanthic Cali kings came to light, someone made a post about the Axanthic Splendida being from Axanthic cali origin...???

All in all we have no cold hard facts, all we have to go in are stories "heard from the grape vine" and we know how much a story passed from person to person can be manipulated to a point where it holds no truths.

That's my take.

~Z

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Royal ReptileZ

I'm certainly not calling anyones animals into question,that's for sure. There is a lot of heresay and etc. about the whole line I guess.
The lavender "brooks" don't look like Cal kings these days at any rate.
Is/was there a lavender FL. king?? As in a w.c.??
I would surely love to find one under a board or something....
It'd be suspect too I suppose...
Why was the name "lavender" given to them?
Just wondering....
See you soon! Pray for some unseasonably cool weather dude. It's freakin' hot!
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

I think the reason there are no cold hard facts is because no one wanted to/needed to admit what was going on (thereby killing potential sales as having a cross or hybrid of "lesser" value). Didn't this happen a while back with albino goini? If there are original albino floridas, there are also a lot of crosses that have been bred, so I guess the mix is always suspect.

Is the jury still out on black rats possibly contributing to white-sided brooks? IF a rat was used, do you think the seller would say so? Or was it more lucrative to suddenly have a pure morph?

Does any of this make the brooks of today somehow unappealing? Hell no, they are gorgeous. Aren't we all trying to/hoping to achieve something, in our eyes, beautiful and unique? Look at how amazing Brandon's axanthic goini is!

thats a beautiful snake...
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"Not one shred of evidence supports the notion that life is serious."
1.1 Cal Kings
0.1 Mali Uromastyx

have pink/red eyes.
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11.14 L. getula californiae (Cal. King)
2.3 L. getula nigrita (MBK)
1.0 L. getula floridana (Brooksi)
1.1 Pantherophis guttatus guttatus (Corn)
0.1 Pituophis catenifer catenifer (Pacific gopher)
0.1 Heterodon nasicus nasicus (W Hognose)
4.2.14 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata - (Cal. Alligator Lizard)

you own or have seen a lavender cali king with dark eyes?...???

please share a pic if u indeed have on...

~ZF
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Royal ReptileZ

Bred by Brian Stockmyer (hope I didn't screw up the spelling of his name)

Picked her up for $50 at Sac show in '06 - I think she's an '04 or '05 (she was about 30 inches when purchased).

He had babies selling for $25
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11.14 L. getula californiae (Cal. King)
2.3 L. getula nigrita (MBK)
1.0 L. getula floridana (Brooksi)
1.1 Pantherophis guttatus guttatus (Corn)
0.1 Pituophis catenifer catenifer (Pacific gopher)
0.1 Heterodon nasicus nasicus (W Hognose)
4.2.14 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata - (Cal. Alligator Lizard)

are u blind?

that snake has ruby eyes... take another look...

now if u said all hypo cali kings don't have ruby eyes then ok! but that snake clearly has ruby eyes...

~ZF
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Royal ReptileZ

I don't see the Ruby color at all. FunkyRes, you should take another picture like that but use the flash to be more convincing.

ok irregardless to whether it's visible or not in the pic... it is genetically impossible for a T positive albino to have Dark/Normal/ non-red/ruby/pink eyes...

problem with cali kings is that there are different types of T positive Amels and Hypomelanistics that have not been properly documented... (yet?)

some people call hypos lavenders... T negative amels lavenders...etc... these things need to be set straight.

~ZF
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Royal ReptileZ

((ok irregardless to whether it's visible or not in the pic... it is genetically impossible for a T positive albino to have Dark/Normal/ non-red/ruby/pink eyes... ))

That's what I was thinking too but now FunkyRes mentions it's not the same shade as he would expect to find on a ruby, so I'm figuring they are ruby now. I totally agree with your other points. I would like know what the truth is with the blue eyed blonds. If they're hypo then why do they appear to have red eyes? And why are they called blue eyed? I see pictures posted with people calling a red eyed king a blue eyed blond, are those actually lavenders?

I think the Blue Eyed Blondes (BEB) ARE just lavenders (T positive amels) but there is no confirmation of that as yet. if they aren't the same gene... they'll surely be another T positive to add to the list

The thing that is different about them is that the iris of the BEBs have a light blue tint (sliver-ish)... nothing really spectacular IMHO. I mean normal non-morph cali kings come with variations... so those variations may just be visible in these mutations... be we'll only know for sure when test breeding is done.

~ZF
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Royal ReptileZ

I used to think that that Lavenders and the Blue-Eyed Blondes were the same (Lavenders)..but a couple of years ago I acquired 1.1 BEBs from VIVID Reptiles and they do look different. I will be the first

Next year I will be breeding them (BEBs) into other morphs to hopefully find some answers (and to produce something different).

I do believe now by just looking at them that they (BEBs) are different than the different lavenders that are out there. Next year I will be breeding my BEBs to each other and to other recessive genes...we shall see.

I've also produced double hets (albino & lavender) and bred back and produced both albinos and lavenders in the same clutch...but I'm not sure what a cal king will look like that displays both albino and lavender at the same time.

The picture is a BEB on the left....and the one on the right is a product of the Ghost/Palomar x Hypo (something going on there).

Kerby...

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Lonesome Valley Reptiles
www.lonesomevalleyreptiles.com
Specializing In California Kingsnakes

Not sure what happened to that post but...

**I used to think that that Lavenders and the Blue-Eyed Blondes were the same (Lavenders)..but a couple of years ago I acquired 1.1 BEBs from VIVID Reptiles and they do look different. I will be the first..**

I will be the first to admit that are different/same once it is proven through breeding. To finish the sentence from above.

Kerby...
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Lonesome Valley Reptiles
www.lonesomevalleyreptiles.com
Specializing In California Kingsnakes

Thanks guys. I wish the names would be cleared up with these BEB's, because of them a lot of people feel if a king doesn't have a purplish tint then it's not hypo.

The BEB's have blue IRISES, not blue pupils. The iris is the part surrounding the pupil. They are from the Elfin Forest which is only about 5 miles as the crow flies, from the fields in Carlsbad everybody used to hunt before they became Legoland, golf courses and houses. Normal kings with blue irises were fairly common in those fields. I have heard blue irises are fairly common in many other SoCal localities as well.

I think the BEB's are just another Lavender but they may or may not be compatible with the other 2 known Lavender strains, JR and JD.

What makes BEB's special IMHO is that they come from a locality that often displays light brown and very bright yellow. Additionally the BEB's have been selectivly bred for bright yellow. The other Lavender strains(JR and JD) are of mixed locality and in many cases(but not all) the yellow has been reduced in intensity as a result.

On one end of the spectrum we have melanism and on the other we have albinism.....with everything else in the middle.

And there are a lot of recessive genes somewhere in between.

We have yet to correctly label a lot of these recessive genes in california kingsnakes...and we have yet to properly identify some of these as different than similar ones.

The term "lavender" in cal kings obviously represents DIFFERENT recessive genes that are NOT compatible to each other. The same goes for "hypo".

There are numerous "lavender" genes in cal kings that are different.

There are numerous "hypo" genes in cal kings that are different.

And there are a lot of mis-labeled cal kings...and mis-use of what is recessive and what is not. Just check out the K-snake classifieds.

Kerby...
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Lonesome Valley Reptiles
www.lonesomevalleyreptiles.com
Specializing In California Kingsnakes

it is quite possible my colour perception is not as good as it could be.

I'm not color blind, but I may have trouble distinguishing between some shades of color.

Her eyes are not what I would consider to be ruby, and are darker than the ruby I have distinguished on other Tpos lavenders.

I don't know what line she is. When the hets I'm holding back produce a homo male, I'm hoping to aquire some females of known lines to test which gene it is.

I'm not even sure how many lavender lines there are - I know at least two (I think JR and one other I forget), has BEB been proven unique allele from them?
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11.14 L. getula californiae (Cal. King)
2.3 L. getula nigrita (MBK)
1.0 L. getula floridana (Brooksi)
1.1 Pantherophis guttatus guttatus (Corn)
0.1 Pituophis catenifer catenifer (Pacific gopher)
0.1 Heterodon nasicus nasicus (W Hognose)
4.2.14 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata - (Cal. Alligator Lizard)

It appears that you have a lavender.

Kerby...
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Lonesome Valley Reptiles
www.lonesomevalleyreptiles.com
Specializing In California Kingsnakes

Thanks for everyones replies It doesnt bother me what my new snake is, I just wanted to be sure that the breeder wasnt ripping people off

Im a bit more confused now though - how many types of lavender cali morphs are there then? How are they all told apart from each other? And so is albinism different from lav? Im new to king genetics incase you didnt notice! lol

There are at least two known different lavender strains - possibly more.

They are different because the cause of the lavender albinism is defective genes in different gene pairs. So if you breed a lavender from one line to a different line that is broken at a different gene pair, you get normals and not lavenders (but they are double hets - carrying recessive genes for both types).

Amel Albinos (Tneg) albinos supposedly completely lack the enzyme tyrosinase while Lavender Albinos (Tpos) do have the enzyme but are not able to create the dark melanin pigment for a different reason.

According to wikipedia - that classification (Tpos or Tneg) has been rendered obsolete, I don't have a clue what the current line of thought is on the different types of albinism.
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11.14 L. getula californiae (Cal. King)
2.3 L. getula nigrita (MBK)
1.0 L. getula floridana (Brooksi)
1.1 Pantherophis guttatus guttatus (Corn)
0.1 Pituophis catenifer catenifer (Pacific gopher)
0.1 Heterodon nasicus nasicus (W Hognose)
4.2.14 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata - (Cal. Alligator Lizard)

Thanks so much for all the info, it makes that part a lot clearer!

So on a genetics-related topic, Ive read about hypos and hypers in calis. Im familiar with cornsnake genetics (ie hypos in this sense have reduced melanin but not lacking it completely like amels do) but what is the difference between hypo and hyper kings, and how does that differ from what I know about cornsnake hypos?

Sorry for all the stupid questions, like I said Im new to king genetics.

Mel

your questions aren't the least bit "Stupid"

there are HYPO mutations and HYPER mutations

The way I associated those two in high school biology was:

HYPO = LOW

HYPER = HIGH

Hypo mutations express less of something... usually melanin (black pigment)

Hyper mutations express more of something ... more black... more red... etc...

As far as your previous question... it isn't known as yet how many different lavender Cali king there are...

There are hypo Cali kings that are called lavenders because they are purple as hatchlings and have deep red eyes...

thing about Cali kings is there are soooo many different mutations within this subspecies, and most are unrecognized...

it's like what Kerby said:

On one end you have Albinos on the other end you have Melanistics and there are lots of different morphs in between.

~ZF
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Royal ReptileZ

hypers are increased black/brown color.

Look at the pictures of kerbys mendota x davis.

I don't believe there is such a thing as hypermelanistic corn snake, at least not currently.

I'm not sure hypermelanistic is the correct term for davis/mendota - I don't know that they produce more melanin in the pigment cells than they are suppose, I think maybe it is a pattern morph, with normal melanin being produced in the pigment cells that are normally cream and naturally lacking melanin.

But I really haven't a clue.

Just a pet theory of mine, based upon the fact that blizards exist. I speculate that with blizards, you have the pattern effect of what we call hyper (pigment cells that are now wanting to produce melanin where there should be cream) but that the melanin production in those pigment cells is broken.
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11.14 L. getula californiae (Cal. King)
2.3 L. getula nigrita (MBK)
1.0 L. getula floridana (Brooksi)
1.1 Pantherophis guttatus guttatus (Corn)
0.1 Pituophis catenifer catenifer (Pacific gopher)
0.1 Heterodon nasicus nasicus (W Hognose)
4.2.14 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata - (Cal. Alligator Lizard)

Ah I see, thanks again guys! No, I dont think there is a hyper cornsnake yet, I was just using the hypo as an example as Id heard of hyper and hypo kings but didnt know the difference.

I was checking out Kerbys site and seen the mendota and davis morphs - are these 2 seperate hyper morphs (like lav and albino) or just different names given to different effects of hyper?

He just proved them to be the same gene.

forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1369355,1369355
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11.14 L. getula californiae (Cal. King)
2.3 L. getula nigrita (MBK)
1.0 L. getula floridana (Brooksi)
1.1 Pantherophis guttatus guttatus (Corn)
0.1 Pituophis catenifer catenifer (Pacific gopher)
0.1 Heterodon nasicus nasicus (W Hognose)
4.2.14 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata - (Cal. Alligator Lizard)

For some reason they did and still do have two different names for those morphs. I'm not really sure why, maybe they slightly differ in pattern but both are very variable in pattern anyway. There is hypermelanism in that strain but it's more apparent in some then others for some reason. Maybe local has something to do with it. The effect of hypermelanism is more noticeable in the head normally. Some times the light pigment can be kind of dark or muddy looking. They like to call those the golden black bellies but most of the different names are not used my everyone. I'm glad Kerby made the effort to breed the two together to get the answers. why no one ever did or has reported it is beyond me.

The names are for the locality.

You can have a Davis that is not hyper and still call it a Davis if it is from Davis, CA.

AFAIK the only Davis locality kings being sold on the market are the hyper line started by Rick Staub - I don't know if he (or anyone else) is breeding/selling the normal Cal Kings that are found at that locale. The normals probably aren't worth terribly much other than maybe to add genetic diversity to the hypers while preserving locale, so if someone is, it probably is a hobbyist from that area.

I've seen pictures of wild caught normal cal kings in hobbyist collections that are allegedly from Mendota but I don't know if anyone is breeding/selling them either.
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11.14 L. getula californiae (Cal. King)
2.3 L. getula nigrita (MBK)
1.0 L. getula floridana (Brooksi)
1.1 Pantherophis guttatus guttatus (Corn)
0.1 Pituophis catenifer catenifer (Pacific gopher)
0.1 Heterodon nasicus nasicus (W Hognose)
4.2.14 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata - (Cal. Alligator Lizard)

>>It's all in the eyes.
>>
>>As the color of the cal king before it would have been an albino or a lavender will affect the dark/light color of the albino or lavender.
>>
>>They are about the same price...cheap.
>>
>>Kerby...
>>
>>-----
>>Lonesome Valley Reptiles
>>www.lonesomevalleyreptiles.com
>>Specializing In California Kingsnakes

My Lavender Cal King doesn’t have ruby in any part of his eyes, in the shots below you can see that with the flash on he has red eye but the true color of his eyes are blue. He doesn’t appear to be a BEB though and from all my research he is a Hypo Lavender Cal king. I have had him for about 8-9 years and I plan on finding a suitable female for him next spring! My main question would be what type of female should I breed him with?

FYI on the gloves he has a CRAZY feeding response and takes some time to calm down.

FLASH

N/F
[

Flash

N/F

N/F

Under CF lights

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Jason A.
"Long time Herper, first year Breeder `07."

This is a male hypo (Great Valley Serpentarium Lavender) breeding a female Lavender.

Now there are obvious DIFFERENT recessive genes being called "Lavender" that are not compatible.

So will the real lavender please stand up.......

By definition I would say it is a hypo, just like I think the BEBs are hypo...but they may not be the same hypo gene.

And there are different lavender genes.

I should get double hets out of this pairing.....BUT I have talked to Bill from Great Valley Serpentarium and he said that he has bred this pair in the past and then bred back and produced a cal king that displayed both at the same time....so what do those look like?

Kerby...

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Lonesome Valley Reptiles
www.lonesomevalleyreptiles.com
Specializing In California Kingsnakes

>>This is a male hypo (Great Valley Serpentarium Lavender) breeding a female Lavender.
>>
>>Now there are obvious DIFFERENT recessive genes being called "Lavender" that are not compatible.
>>
>>So will the real lavender please stand up.......
>>
>>By definition I would say it is a hypo, just like I think the BEBs are hypo...but they may not be the same hypo gene.
>>
>>And there are different lavender genes.
>>
>>I should get double hets out of this pairing.....BUT I have talked to Bill from Great Valley Serpentarium and he said that he has bred this pair in the past and then bred back and produced a cal king that displayed both at the same time....so what do those look like?
>>
>>Kerby...
>>
>>-----
>>Lonesome Valley Reptiles
>>www.lonesomevalleyreptiles.com
>>Specializing In California Kingsnakes

Thanks for the response. I really like the white/yellow(almost Amel) Lav Cal King and is what I would like to breed my male with, however I have only ever seen a few all neonates and they were all over priced(Pet Stores). I would want a full grown adult assuming my lav Cal King is a male he is huge at close to 52”.
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Jason A.
"Long time Herper, first year Breeder `07."