Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Anyone know of any successful savannah monitor breeding in captivity?

I normally don't let odds become a factor in decision making, mostly because I'm odd, myself, but I would like to know what the odds of breeding them are. I'm talking about successful egg hatching & thriving neonates, alone, not including the odds of finding a suitable, compatible, mate.

I'm under the impression that the odds are from "low" to "nill." What say you?

Thanks!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

Gueeeeeezzzzzzzzzz, Savs are no different then any other monitor thats been bred, including ackies. They only require bigger cages and more food. In fact, they are much easier, huge energy storage ability for when keepers become neglectful.

Many have bred them. But most have stopped. The reason is simple. Breeding any monitor is work. The larger the animal, the more the work. But still the same work.

With that in mind. The effort and cost to produce a medium sized monitor is fairly high, much higher then a high selling price for Savs. You see, folks can get "Farm hatched or whatever the heck they are" for nearly nothing. They come in at $4.00 to $5.00 bucks. The cost of producing a Sav, is between $100 and $500 bucks each. Dude, what a great business that would be. Of course that would drop with numbers. But I am using what HAS been produced in the past. You know, a couple of clutchs with a medium hatchrate, for a couple seasons.

Yes yes, I know, you want to do it for fun. hahahahahahahahaha So what if its not fun??????? What if its mostly work and worry and then you lose money. hahahahahahahahahaha

By comparison, one clutch of ackies is worth(very sadly) two years worth of Savs. And more saddness, ackies "ARE" fun and while a lot of work, its little work, not medium work. Compared to large monitors, which are a lot of work, and giant monitors which suck for the amount of work.

A the moment their is an albino Sav project underway. In hopes of making it worth the effort. Then breeding Savs of all kinds may get a boost. OR not. Personally, I am not sure if any Sav market is worth doing. But I commend those taking up this effort for giving it a go.

I am surprised that you ask this question. And back to doing it for the love of it(savs) The first clutch(if you hatch the eggs) will be worth the most. Then they drop like a stone, from that point on. After a while you will make about $100 bucks a clutch, hmmmmmmmm not going to pay for the food, or the litebulbs, or OK, you cant go to the movies, but no popcorn for the kids. Back to "for fun", if you have done your work, you will not have four or five baby Savs on your hands, But if you have a couple of females, you could have 50 to 100 and nowhere for them to go. Except if you sell them for $5.

It sorta takes the fun/love away. hahahahahahaha

Please understand, nothing against Savs in any way. Except, they are imported in the greatest numbers. In reality, you cannot breed any imported monitor and hope to pay for the effort, muchless make a bit of pocket change. The reason I keep saying that is, feeding them is expensive. When breeding them, you have GROUPS feeding groups is MORE EXPENSIVE.

If you took any species thats imported, even if in small numbers and bred them, and created a market, the importers would fill that market before your eggs hatched. Hmmmmmmmmmmm interesting. Oh, your doing it for the love. Again, lots of work takes that love away.

So yes, thats what has happened to those who bred Savs. They simply move on to something else they love.

And yes, there have been a number of people here and there across the country that have a pair of Savs that lay every year and they give/trade them back to their local petshop. Cheers

> > > "So what if its not fun??????? What if its mostly work and worry and then you lose money. hahahahahahahahahaha"

I know firsthand that purposeful breeding of any kind of animal isn't all fun. I breed, or have bred, several different types of animals. It's just like anything else in that if the subject doesn't enthrall you, it will be of little to no value to you. And you're right about the market and the great potential for losing money.

If it becomes mostly work & worry, along with a money pit, then it'll be time to turn it into a legitimate business for a tax write-off. Hahahaha!!!

Alright, alright,....... you've got me cornered, I'll confess.

Since I have a male sav I've got my foot in the door. I've got several other reptiles that I feed that aren't reproducing for profit, so sometimes I think "What the heck, what's another monitor gonna hurt seeing as how I've got the space and raise my own rodents." (I've raised crickets before, too, and I'm sure I'll have to get back into doing it again.)

So I can just throw a female in the cage with my male and if they reproduce, great, I've allowed them to accomplish something. If they don't, no big deal. Maybe I can gain a little bit of knowledge if I check on them every month or so. Hahahaha!!!

You see, ackies are cute, but I've never watched one, or a group of 'em, for more than a minute at a time. Just haven't had the opportunity to. Ackies don't do anything for me. I'm not putting 'em down, by ny means, I'm just saying that I'm not attracted to 'em. They're still a monitor, and I feel that monitors are superior in the realm of lizards.

Of course, if I just wanted to be a successful monitor breeder I'd go with the best odds and choose ackies or orientalis (that's not a dig at anyone, by any means, I'm just saying that some people say they're easier to breed, that's all).

I often wonder how much longer the sav population can support the high volume of imports. Surely they've got scientists raising cain in Africa about their exploitation and sooner or later, when the rodents carry the people off 'cause there's no monitors to control 'em, they'll realize they need to tighten up.

So, would I be breeding 'em for fun or love? Fun(?), maybe. Love(?), not really LOVE, per se. Most likely more opportunistic than anything else.

Yeah, I'll probably join the band of gypsies that have moved on to something else somewhere down the road. But I'm sure I will have gained a wealth of knowledge and experience that will better me in other areas.

I've obviously not commtitted myself to it, yet. I passed up a chance last week at buying a female due to the price, so I still have a lil' bit of reasoning left in me. Hahahaha!!!

Actually, what I need to do is skip this step in my life and focus more on my next step, which is breeding Eastern Diamondbacks. Now, that will be for fun & love!!! I'll just have to renew my male sav's girly magazine subscription.

As always, thanks for your input, Frank!

Catch ya later!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

Hi HH, first, I never mentioned the word "Profit". But since you have, lets go with it. Profit means to benefit from. Its not necessarily about money, but it can be.

You see, if all it took was throwing a female in with your male, there would be literally hundreds upon hundreds of clutches produced yearly.

I think you have been around these forums long enough that you should understand, with no species is it, just throwing one in with another. Not even with ackies.

This is included in the work. So yes, all monitors take work, as in working with them. In order to breed monitors with any consistancy you have to work them. Its this work thats valuable. and of value.

About what species you like, that is wholely up to you. I reserve to like what I like, and I feel others should really go with what they like. If not, they will fail anyway.

With that said, your opinion is common, and jaded. You want Savs, for two reasons, you have one and it was easy to get. Easy to get can mean all sorts of things.

One of the reasons I moved into monitors was very very simple(I am a snake guy) They made me laugh, not once a year, or once a month, but on a daily basis. Of course some species more then others. Ackies make me laugh a lot. I have seen things that when I think about them, I laugh all over again. What reptiles do that for you?

If Savs do that for you, then go for it. My bet is, you will not do it, or when you do, it will be very temporary. Cheers

Ha! Ha!

I knew you would catch what I said but you didn't interpret it like I thought you would.

I wrote; "So I can just throw a female in the cage with my male and if they reproduce, great, I've allowed them to accomplish something. If they don't, no big deal. Maybe I can gain a little bit of knowledge if I check on them every month or so. Hahahaha!!!"

I meant that as a poke at the way a lot of people tend to think. A lil' bit of wry hillbilly humor, gone bad. Hahaha!!! Seems to be some that think that's all you have to do, but, yeah, you're right, there's a whole lot more to it than that. In my opening sentence I used the term "purposeful breeding." Throwing a pair together & checkin' on 'em every month or so isn't my idea of purposeful breeding. Ha!

I don't turn out quality German Shepherds by letting my female burn up the roads like my wife does when she's in heat. Wait a minute, did I say that right? Hahahaha!!! Something like that. (If I don't post for a couple of days, or ever again, you'll know my wife read this.)

> > > " ...your opinion is common, and jaded. You want Savs, for two reasons, you have one and it was easy to get. Easy to get can mean all sorts of things."

Because "I've got one," yes, but, "easy to get" doesn't have anything to do with my thinking about breeding them, I'm blaming you for that, you rascal. Hahahaha!!!

Like I told you before, I never will forget you saying in a discussion we had that that's what monitors live for, to reproduce. At the time, we were talking about my nile and you asked if I planned on breeding it. I didn't then & still don't have any plans today to breed it (nile) but my sav holds a little more of my heart. I'm struggling in trying to do it right, to give it what I can since it's in my possession. None of my creatures are dispensible and I strive to do what a good caretaker/keeper should do.

> > > "Though this be madness, yet there is method in 't." Quote from Shakespeare's "Hamlet" - Act II, Scene II

I'm not above & beyond getting a group of ackies instead of a female sav. I've only heard a few stories about ackie groups, or any other groups of monitors.

From my experiences with groups of other animals I know there's a big difference from solitary captives. Groups are intriguing & entertaining. Heck, I enjoy watching my rats a lot of times. The things they do in groups still amazes me.

My attraction to monitors stems from my childhood infatuation of komodo dragons. This could explain my taste for the medium to large prehistoric looking monitors. I still think that there's some hidden connection between monitors & snakes that also plays a part but I've been unable to put my finger on it.

Scoop me up several ackies and meet me in Daytona. I'm headed back to FL Wednesday to take a litter of pups down to sell and I was thinking about running thru the expo. I know, I see that you're not on the vendor list. Give e'm to the Barkers & I'll look 'em up. Hahahaha!!!

Tell me a good ackie group story or two. Entice me.

Thanks for your time!

Take care!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

Exactly what roads would that be????????

Oh and whats the deal with the wifes. Dobry mentioned he liked his dog better then his wife(I took the doubt out) and I had to remind him that his wonderful wife just bought him a nice Flavi. Would a dog do that? One point for the wifes, hmmmmmmm now whats the score? hahahahahahaha

Also I would not want to see you with ackies. There are lots of choices. Like gouldi type crosses. Not expensive, Not small, and not big. Yet pack all the punch you could stand. Like Savs, on speed and skill and smarts, and oh heck and everything more. Ok, they are just more. The gouldi complex are a little complex when it comes to grouping or pairing them, compared to ackies. With the exception of Flavis, bless their hearts, they're easy.

Also anything with argus in it, cannot be trusted, OK, then can be trusted, but trusted to test their teeth on your fingers. Not mean or defensive, just fast and too smart for us. gotta go, cheers

Hello HH & FR,

I will start by saying that I really have enjoyed reading this exchange. I am one of those guys who did purchase a group of savs and am still raising them. I hope to allow my savs to reproduce and would like to be able to offer a few cb babies to other responsible keepers who desire to breed them. I have developed a real genuine liking for these monitors, a side that did not exist before I raised this group. We have had great fun with them and they are full of the really cool monitor behaviors that I had never seen before I learned to keep monitors properly. These animals have not grown like many of the other savs that I have seen pictured. The fat stores on these animals seem to be mostly restricted to the tails like I have seen in odatria animals(long thin bodies), and not as thick belly pads as I have seen many other savs dragging around. FR, I believe you said it best with "As far as I can tell, all monitors are fun so why not choose a species that YOU can maintain"- pretty close to your words, anyway, I think, HAHAHa! Best to You Both & Cheers, it's Friday- Mike

Of the few people I know that were successful with Savs. Most found out that there were very few good keepers to get babies too.

Also, the chase to get it right is not a gradual thing. Most somehow think because there is so much failure, that getting it right comes a little at a time. That is far from what actually happens.

What happens is, once you barely get it right, the flood gates open and your swamped with offspring. Monitors that have medium to larger clutches can lay so many eggs its not funny.

You say, a few good keepers, but getting it right with savs means, a potential of around a hundred offspring. What if you have three females and get it right? your done in.

More often then not, I simply do not dig up eggs, but that too is not easy on the old brain. It all works on you. If only a few would pop out of the ground every so often. That would be enough and great. Cheers

Hey Mike!
I'm surprised, and glad, that someone else got something out of this thread.

I knew you had a young group of savs and I think about ya every now & then, usually when I'm struggling with what to do about mine.

How about an update on your group? (How many do you have, how long have you had them, what sizes are they now, have they pretty well worked out their social order, etc...)

I've got a strong gut feeling that you're getting in on groundbreaking level. I just can't see the importation level staying where it is for more than a few more years without drastic effects on the population.

I wish you all the best!

Catch ya later!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

The last I heard was, the pet trade Savs are not taken from wild lands, as in natural unaltered areas. In those areas, they are hard to find and in low numbers.

They are taking them for old fields, or fields left unplanted for some period.

This is a common place to find very high populations of reptiles of many kinds. Even very rare ones.

To bring it to something you may understand, corn snakes do not eat corn, they were common around corn fields. What eats corn? MICE. hahahahahahaha

There are several places where they super populations of gilas around planted fields(and watered and fed) are you getting this.

Milksnakes in mex. Where thought to be rare until they were hunted between fields. Before hunting the fields, 3 a week was normal, hunting the fields, 400 a week happened. I could go on and on and on and on. With all sort of different reptiles including monitors.

How about I found the fourth thru the 35th ruthvens king, EVER FOUND, Hmmmmmmmmmm those dang corn fields are soooooooooooooo much fun. IT took me a few hours.
Hey, when you go snake hunting, WHAT DO YOU DO? old buildings, tin, wood piles perhaps? Its kinda funny how many individuals can inhabit those small areas.

In a nutshell, man took away all that was bad(predators) and watered fields, which nourished the plants and rodents and insects. And, and this is the funny part. Monitors are lazy, in nature they avoid hardpacked soils(99% of the areas)and seek tilted soils(soft) SOOOOOOOOOO now you got soft soils with insects and rodents and no or few predators. Guezzzzzzz it is a farm after all. Only no fences. Cheers

you think that importation numbers are going to diminish. One is their not rare. Two mostly hatchlings are shipped out in big quantities which doesn't impact the population at all. Three if magically importation stopped the price would go up but still not enough that breeding them would be a 401K. Any long term project with large lizards, crocs, or any herp with complex social structures is plain NOT for most people. I know having done it as an occupation my entire life. Its expensive, time consuming, and gets old quick. It will only work long term if there is a financial return that is satisfactory. With Savannah Monitors you would be on the negative side of the number line!! Oh well, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger..TC

Tom,
I don't want to kid myself, or anyone else, for that matter. My comment about my thoughts on importation being able to maintain the high volume much longer merely shows my ignorance (lack of knowledge) of the raising & importing techniques used. Frank made that picture clearer to me in his last post. (Thanks, Frank!)

> > > "Two mostly hatchlings are shipped out in big quantities which doesn't impact the population at all."

Maybe they've got quite a complex system in place with conservation safeguards, I don't know. But seems to me that we're talking about pretty much third world countries that don't think like we do. If savs become scarce in the wild what will happen to the farms?

I can't think of another animal that has survived such expolitation and is still in mass importation. That's not to say there's not any, I just can't think of any at the moment. Maybe you or someone else can, though. I don't claim to be the "Einstein" of the animal kingdom. LOL! Far from it.

> > > "Three if magically importation stopped the price would go up but still not enough that breeding them would be a 401K."

I agree. But if it wasn't for man's intervention in the ball python world (morphs) there would never have been much of a market there either.

> > > "Any long term project with large lizards, crocs, or any herp with complex social structures is plain NOT for most people."

Very true. However, if you happen to stumble upon the perfect market that appeals to everyone, let me know. Leopard geckos ain't it, burms aren't, BPs aren't, etc...

> > > "It will only work long term if there is a financial return that is satisfactory. With Savannah Monitors you would be on the negative side of the number line!!"

I agree. New markets come & go all the time. The only way to secure one is to sell nothing but spayed/neutered animals. Ha! And that wouldn't surprise me none if it were to come about.

Initially, I was looking at breeding savs more as a past time rather than monetary gain. But I did mention monetary gain if the imports slowed. Then, and only then would it be possible to do as a successful business.

I think you're looking at it more from a business perspective where I'm looking at it as more of a personal keeper perspective. From a business perspective, personal keepers like me are doing nothing but losing money, for what? Just to enjoy our animals. I've blown a heck of a lot more money on drugs & alcohol back in my heydays. Heh, that could explain why I think the way I do, ya reckon'? Hahahahaha!!!

Thanks for your input, Tom!

Have a good one!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

If we keep talking, just maybe some great ideas will pop up.

Tom hit the nail on the head. Complex social structure. That is what monitors practice(even if science cannot tell one end from the other with monitors and says they are solitary)

This IS the problem with monitors. You cannot keep a female in a shoe box most of the year, feed it, clean the cage and change the water. Then place a male in and collect eggs later. Simply put, monitors have defied that with a passion and across the board. Oh it can be done, but its more like spinning a roulette wheel. Most of the time it will not work AT ALL. But if kept in a social setting, they produce like pez despencers. Hmmmmmmm proof is in the Putting(doing).

So, this means, large cages, setup to promote and allow a social structure. Which is not sold at your local Pet and corpse shop.(for monitors). So As in the old days, monitor keepers have to be cage builders as well. A lost art. I am sure Tom will argee, those who did well in the old days, were ones not afraid to get their hands dirty.(hmmmmmm lots of meaning here)(also means, not waiting until something becomes available)

One more thing, about only selling neutered animals. The failure with monitors is very much the opposite. LACK OF SUCCESS with anything but the smaller monitors has without question limited the market. Humans are funny beasts, for every explorer, theres many thousand homesteaders. Most simply want to follow and not blaze their own trail. Or so it seems.

With the reptiles you mentions that have created a large market, a common trait is, they are simple ABC types, no challange. Do what your told and all will be well. OK, got to go, more later, cheers

try to explain a bit clearer. When you have a totally natural area[rainforest,etc.] you have a great diversity of life but a low population density of any ONE species. When you farm or alter a natural area it benefits some species and eradicates others. You get a low diversity but high populations of certain species. A golf course here is a perfect example. Animals usually have one of two reproductive strategies. They either have few offspring with a high percentage reaching breeding age or they have tons of babies with few surving. Most reptiles and lower vertebrates use the latter strategy. The vast majority of imported Savannahs are juveniles of which most would be eaten in the wild anyway. That is why importation has little or no effect on wild populations.There are more deer here now than before the pilgrims. Why? We killed the predators and altered the land and they benefited. Not so with other species [moutain lions, grizzly bears, etc.]. Many herps benefit from altered areas including Savannah Monitors. When you look at the factors I believe even with big numbers being exported there are more now than ever. Cetainly they are much easier to import and much cheaper than 30 years ago. I hope this explains a little clearer my thoughts. I'm not eloquent enough with words to fully explain plus I'm technologically retarded and type with one finger. As a last thought all Varanids have COMPLEX SOCIAL STRUCTURES and one has to listen to the lizards to be sucessfull....TC

Hey stop complaining about futilities (finger typing), who cares how you type?
hatching twins (not to mention albino) I hate you!!

To try to make this easier & quicker for us all, let me combine my replies to you both.

Actually, Johnny Nash's hit from '72 pretty well sums it up for me.
I can see clearly now, the rain is gone,
I can see all obstacles in my way
Gone are the dark clouds that had me blind
It’s gonna be a bright (bright), bright (bright)
Sun-Shiny day.

Thanks to Frank's earlier explanation and Tom's clarification (his 2nd post) I see how it could be possible to keep up high volume imports of savs. It took both of those posts, combined, but I think the tipping point was TC's "Animals usually have one of two reproductive strategies. They either have few offspring with a high percentage reaching breeding age or they have tons of babies with few surving."

I think that comment completed the circle for me, the so-called "missing link" for me.

FR wrote; "If we keep talking, just maybe some great ideas will pop up."

Frank, are you there? Frank? Frank? Frank, wake up, you're dreamin', dude, it's me HH. Hahahahahaha!!!

FR wrote; "Tom hit the nail on the head. Complex social structure."

Yeah, that jumped out at me when I read it, too. I applied it in more ways than one and saw how true it is.

Tom, I also liked the way you ended your last post with "As a last thought all Varanids have COMPLEX SOCIAL STRUCTURES and one has to listen to the lizards to be sucessfull."

And not everyone can read, listen & interpret animals. And I won't even mention the role of commonsense.

(FR) "Humans are funny beasts, for every explorer, theres many thousand homesteaders. Most simply want to follow and not blaze their own trail. Or so it seems."

It's not "so it seems," it's "so it is." That's the way it is. I don't mind putting up with a tag-along for awhile, it's the cling-ons that irritate me. Heh, heck, I'm being a tag-along right here, right now, but I periodically let go & try to balance myself. At least I think I do.

Take just a minute to think about what you said in the quote above, Frank. How real-to-life that could be at this very moment.

I'm not saying this is the case in this situation, just how true-to-life it could be.

Trailblazers are most always having to deal with negative opinions from the people that believe the trailblazers are headed down the wrong path. Most of the time the differing opinions come from well-meaning people but it still wears on the trailblazers as much as the actual blazing of the trail does.

Ever been in that position before, Frank? Hahahaha!!! I know you have, and I, for one, am glad you persevered. Not knowing much about Tom but based on what I do know, I'm betting he's been there before, too.

Are Mike & Mike (lizardheadmike & HH) trying to be the trailblazers? Ha! Ha! No, not me. And I'm not saying lizardheadmike is, either. Just a thought inducer, that's all.

I love inducing thought!

TC & FR,
Don't feel like you have to reply to this on my account. I think I'm pretty well squared away now on sav importation. Thanks for ya'll's time & input!

Oh, by the way, Tom, my apologies for jobi being out of his cage when you dropped in on us. We normally keep him locked up and very seldom let him free-roam like that. Hahahaha!!!

Have a good one!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

ITs fun and why not?

About the two stradums of reproduction. There is actually a cline from one end to the other.

As I have mentioned so many times. Field biologists make very odd decisions. For instance, they tend to pick what they think are normal undisturbed populations and call those normal. The problem is, a saturated population is made up of older larger individuals and is at its lowest need to recruit, the population is filled. While this is interesting, its not what the animals are designed to do. They are designed to recruit after major interruptions. Like floods, or fires, or global warming or cooling(they have been thru that stuff U know) ITs at this time that reptiles are exhibiting their potential.

Which is the part that Tom and I are talking about, as they monitors are mass collected out of these areas, they are reacting by mass producing. As long as they keep collecting the area, it will produce massive numbers, but as soon as they stop, the area will saturate and recruitment will slow way down. Think about that, its fun. Cheers

I ain't forgot abou ya, here. I've gotta go dig up a few clutches of sav eggs and I'll get with ya later. Hahahahaha!!!

Nah, actually, you've started another gear to turnin' in my noggin' and I'm checking up on a few things that I want to make sure I'm thinkin' straight about before posting like a fool.

I see I'm not the only one that loves to make people use their noggin'. Hahahaha!!! Love it!

Later!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

Or should I say "Re-production control."

I've been so busy that it seems like a week since we were discussing this. I had to bactrack to refresh my memory. Just to try to help you out, here's a copy of your last post.

> > > About the two stradums of reproduction. There is actually a cline from one end to the other.

Which is the part that Tom and I are talking about, as they monitors are mass collected out of these areas, they are reacting by mass producing. As long as they keep collecting the area, it will produce massive numbers, but as soon as they stop, the area will saturate and recruitment will slow way down. Think about that, its fun. Cheers

When Tom mentioned the 2 different reproduction methods with basically the same number of survivors, but higher/lower percentages, I quickly thought of the plight of the sea turtle. That has always astonished me and I was able then to see ya'll's point.

Now, you speak of recruiting, which threw me off at first because I was trying to figure out why savs would be going into other neighborhoods recruiting (calling to join forces) other savs. Hahahaha!!! What can I say, I'm a hillbilly, and I was tired. Hahahaha!!!

OK, so how do they actually control their reproduction? Do they not mate as often? I'm getting a picture of older male savs chasing away the young bucks and keeping 'em in line, under control, but the older males are getting too fat & sassy to care about mating anymore. However, they won't let the younguns do it, either. Right or wrong?

Do they actually control their mating drive? Do they, can they, control the number of eggs they produce?

I understand what Tom said about the farmers have created prime breeding grounds, conditions (I think you said something about it, too) but I still can't see how the savs control it, other than just trying to keep their women barefoot & pregnant.

I'm dog-tired so I hope I'm making sense here. If not, just ignore this post & I'll try again later today. Hahahaha!!! I've been up most of the night dismantling my kitchen cabinets (ground level cabinets) because I saw my escaped 4ft anery/motley corn go under it. Sneaky snake!

Later!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

> > > "Exactly what roads would that be????????"

The road the frog breeder lives on. Hahahahahaha!!!
(and everyone else says, "Huh?" (inside joke)

I'll get with ya later on the gouldi.

Thanks a bunch!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

Even with a species that has a high price, consistently so, and a species that more people are looking for, say ackies, or even with beardies, the people who SAY they are interested in buying, and email you time and time again, and want them badly seem to have a serious problem.
Follow through..
When you are not interested in selling any, or have none available, you cant believe the offers, and requests. When you have them, and are ready to sell or ship, you find out that 50% of those who were interested have no REAL interest, and the other half have no money, or suddenly cannot afford them, or they want a continuously lower price, and want them driven (not shipped) halfway across the country to them. The other problem is if you offered to give them away, they still cant afford shipping now, so how did they plan on buying them in the first place.
Absolutely amazing what kind of crackpots you find some people are.
I couldnt imagine a private owner trying to sell CBB boscs, and charging $45-$75 shipping on a lizard that sells at every petstore for half of that price. Keep in mind that the cost of thge animal would be at least $250-$350, unless you are a big reptile dealer that sells several from one clutch, and expects to get a low profit back on them.
Above I reffer to high end beardies, amazing you couldnt pay someone to take them certain times of the year, but others people are willing to pay top dollar for them.
Theres no question in my mind why breeding any reptile is a gamble, and if you dont do it purely for fun, and to enjoy them, you might as well be ready to lose interest.
Simple, people suck!!!