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I have many eastern box turtle eggs that are hatching. They are from colony of box turtles that I have kept for many years living in an outdoor enclosure. I understand why I should never release one of my adult turtles into the wild; but why can’t I release these hatchlings that I harvested at the time they were laid and incubated indoors?

I release most of my hatchlings into the wild each spring after they hatch. I will hibernate them outside for the winter, and in the spring when they come out of hibernation I will feed them a few worms, then I take them to some place were they have a chance of to live the rest of there lives out with out some bulldozer coming and destroying there habitat. I like to think that a few will make it to become adults. Its my guess that if these hatchling were sick they never would have made it throught the winter. Its unlikely that any hatchling that is eating all the worms that you feed them are sick. It’s also unlikely that as hatchling they will come across any other turtles.

One thing that I have noticed in the last few years, every time I go out to a place that would be excellent habituate for box turtles, I also see wild turkeys. The way turkeys peck the ground looking for food I wonder how many turtle hatchlings they would eat. Years ago when I was a kid the woods near my house were full of box turtles, but no turkeys. Now the turkeys are all over.
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Jack

The biggest concern in releasing hatchlings that are ancestrally from different populations is that you may be introducing foreign genes to a population that could be detrimental.

I'm going to try to relate it to a human condition...it's a stretch, but bare with me. Lactose intolerance is a genetically dominant trait. You only need one copy of the gene to be lactose intolerant. It doesn't develop until pre-teen and teen years. There are very, very few Dutch people with lactose intolerance. That population of people has been dependent upon dairy products for hundreds of years. Lactose intolerant people "died out" of their population long ago. On the other hand, most Asian people are lactose intolerant. Since it is a dominant trait, and they haven't depended heavily upon dairy, it is the rule and not the exception. Say a Dutch couple adopts an Asian child, and the child manages to survive, marry, and reproduce. Some of those children will be lactose intolerant. Maybe a few of them survive and reproduce...you get the idea. If the pure Dutch spouses had married pure Dutch people, their children would most likely have been able to eat dairy. (I'm talking of primitive times. I'm all for multiculturalism!!! These health concerns are basically a non-issue now.)

I know that is a stretch, but it illustrates how a given population is theoretically "genetically best fit" to survive in a specific ecosystem. If you start introducing genes to a population from animals "best fit" for a different ecosystem, it could cause problems.

An animal analogy...some species of birds have different mating calls in different populations. Even though they are basically identical, they won't mate. Translocated birds could displace natives by simple competition, but they would be a reproductive loss.

It is generally accepted that genetic flow should be left to natural immigration and migration of animals, and not artificially by humans.

One more thing...unless you are maintaining your animals in absolutely aseptic conditions; foot baths, positive pressure, autoclaves, etc. there is now way to keep out bacteria, viruses, and fungi. You would be stunned to learn how quickly that stuff builds up in closed captive systems.

There's still a lot of debate about this stuff, and it's all basically theoretical. Maybe we will learn differently some day, but I'd say that this theory is very widely accepted.

Sorry for the long post. I hope this helps.

Thanks; your post helped a lot and made perfect sense. I would like to pose another question for clarification. If the adult population of Box Turtles is from the same area, would it be okay to release these hatchlings within a few miles from where the parent box turtles are located? Remembering that these hatchlings were incubated inside and have never been exposed to their.

Honestly, I don't know. I go back and forth on the issue. I was just passing on information as it has been taught to me. A representative at your State's wildlife agency would be the person to ask...someone high up. I'm sure that they've taken a stance on the issue. Most States are vehemently against the release of ANY captives.

I was involved in a lenthy conversation one day about this issue with a well known Southeastern Bog turtle researcher. His organization, along with the Knoxville Zoo in Tennessee, has coordinated a Bog turtle reintroduction program in Tennessee. This guy has an wonderful reputation, is one of the most knowledgeable naturalists in the world, and has a great heart for conservation. Well, some other naturalists are VERY, VERY upset about what he's doing. They think that he's introducing all types of "evils" into the wild through disease and "artificial genetics".

Personally, I think that it is not something that should be done on a whim. It demands careful consideration. For many years I've been removing eggs from road fatalities, hatching them in my incubator in sealed containers with sterilized media, and releasing the hatchlings straight from the incubation container close to where the female was found. Is it the right thing to do? I don't know, but it is the decision that I've made.

Steph and RMB, you're both involved in headstart programs? Do you have any input?

I agree with the following actions: "For many years I've been removing eggs from road fatalities, hatching them in my incubator in sealed containers with sterilized media, and releasing the hatchlings straight from the incubation container close to where the female was found." I see no detriment to the population in this scenario and it is applicable to the original query. So long as the offspring are released in the same area the adults came from and efforts are made to eliminate pathogen transfer (i.e. eggs are incubated in sterile conditions and offspring are released as soon as they hatch) then I see no problem. However, there are legalities involved and, as mentioned, I suggest you contact the proper authorities to see what they think. Since it is not part of an approved/controlled study, many will just ask you not to do it (better safe than sorry type attitude).

Agreed. The regulations in my State are very relaxed, and I am in constant communication with my Wildlife Resources Commission. There are two species that, if a dead female is found abounding with eggs, I must leave them to rot.

I also agree with what Ken has said.

My group of adults all came from a single site (now a shopping center) and the offspring that I headstart here are all released with a fairly close radius of that original site, on the advice of the folks I am collaborating with (ecological researchers, state officials, etc.). The rationale for this, as was explained to me, is fundamentally what Ken explained earlier.

Thanks Steph...I know that you work alongside one of the most reputable Herpetologists in the nation.

What's the hatchling total so far?

22 have hatched.

Thanks, Ken.

Alas, this is not proving to be as good a year as previous ones...So far I have 11 hatchlings out of the egg, but I should have nearly twice that already.

There is wisdom in the words "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

While not altering the fundamental system I was using to incubate eggs, I did change the venue... previously I had kept the incubators in the basement, due to the fact that we do not have central air here and the basement maintained a steady ambient temperature.

This year I had the clever idea to keep everything in a spare room with a window A/C unit running. Bad idea. Between the de-humidifying effect of the A/C and the heat from the incubator, I have had several eggs collapse irretrievably.

Ouch, sorry to hear that.

This year has been pathetic for me also. This drought has really messed things up. I had a female lay her first clutch on August 7th!!! It is so dry, they just aren't coming up to feed or breed.

The only good thing about the drought is that I haven't seen nearly as many road fatalities this year.

To all those who responded to my questions; thank you very much! I now have to think about what to do with all these babies and what to do to prevent the adults from producing more next year.

JPM

"Professional" herpetologists do this too - not just hobbyists. I know that Jim Harding goes out and collects eggs (beats the raccoons to them), of Chrysemys picta and one other species I can't remember, hatches them in the lab, and then releases them with marks on them for capture/recapture study. I didn't ask him what precautions he takes to prevent disease spread.

Yep, I have been doing this all summer as part of my research. On Friday, I released 200 spiny softshells, Blanding's turtles, northern map turtles, snapping turtles, and midland painted turtles. There are another 800 in the incubators and hatching daily.







Slightly off topic, but still turtles...

very cool pix, thanks! didn't know you were a researcher.

I keep thinking I want to do research on turtles (not releasing hatchlings like you and Jim) but right now I am sick of reading research papers. It only occurred to me right now why I am sick of reading them: your pics reminded me how much I love these animals, and what I am sick of is reading how they kill turtles for research. The last paper I read, the author killed all her hatchling snapping turtles at the end of the research to determine sex.

I have a M.Sc. from the University of Guelph (Canada) and I continue to work out of this institution. My current work is primarily based in mitigation (specifically, comparatively testing various mitigation methods to increase embryo hatching success in at risk turtle species).

I understand your concerns regarding some methods. Though it is difficult to swallow, it is often necessary for the furtherance of science and conservation of these animals. Depending on the study, these endeavours go through various animal care committees and they would not be approved if there was not demonstrable merit. The animal lover in me had a tough time attaching transmitters to softshell carapaces but the scientist in me appreciated the need to assess critical habitat and any temporary discomfort for the animal was outweighed by the valuable data collected. Two years later, the transmitters were removed and the softshells happily swam away...

Best.

Thanks for the response.

Did you work with/under Ron Brooks to get your MSc? He's a big turtle guy as U. of Guelph - just recently retired.

...and still working with him.

Were you an undergrad at U. of Guelph as well? When did you do your MSc? I've exchanged a few emails - and received reprints - from Nicola Koper and Kara Lefevre. Kara did research with Brooks as an undergrad, and Nicola did her MSc under Brook and published a paper with him.

I was an undergraduate at Queen's University (Kingston, Ontario). I began working with Brooks in an unofficial capacity in 2004 and completed my M.Sc. under his supervision in the spring of this year.
Yep, the list of Brooks alumni is long and distinguished.
P.S. Though he was forced into retirement (a Canadian requirement), he is a Professor Emeritus at Guelph and as active as ever. He has one hell of a comprehensive text coming out on everyone's favourite turtle: Biology of the Snapping Turtle (that is one of my Lake Erie turtles that I photographed for the cover).

Thanks for the info....

Why does Canada require professors to retire by a certain age?

Well, there are MANY reasons, but it all comes down to preventing the faculty from getting too "old". With mandatory retirement, the renewal cycle is shortened apparently so that universities can continue to be up to date and maintain a more diverse faculty.
I do not agree with mandatory retirement for professors and this requirement is likely going to change in the future. I should also mention that mandatory retirement is not Canada-wide, and also differs between institutions.

As far as I know, the range of T. carolina does not extend beyond the U.S./Canada border (very close, though), and T. ornata's range ends far south of the border. How'd ya end up here?

There are specimens on Pelee Island (though it is unclear whether these are released animals or individuals remaining from a native population) and southern Ontario is part of the historical range of Terrapene carolina.
I maintain an interest (private and professional) in all freshwater turtles, and I happen to study a captive group of E. Box Turtles, so I enjoy frequenting this forum.

Interesting that you say you maintain an interest in all aquatic species.... most Terrapene species are mostly-terrestrial, but I believe there are some in Mexico that are aquatic. And, Terrapene belongs to a taxonomic group Emydids (or ...? I can't remember - since you're done with your Master's, maybe you can correct me), which includes the aquatic species Chrysemys picta and Trachemys scripta. I read that the terrestrial Terrapene species are believed to have descended from aquatic ancestral species.

I used the word freshwater, not aquatic. I would hesitate to use the word aquatic when describing box turtles, though they are freshwater turtles and belong to the family Emydidae (box and pond turtles). Many turtle researchers distinguish themselves between freshwater turtles and seaturtles. It is interesting that there is very little crossover.
Were you looking to pursue turtle research as part of an undergraduate thesis or M.Sc.?

Oops... "freshwater" vs. "aquatic".... but I would hesitate to call Terrapene carolina and T. ornata "freshwater" - though they are descend from freshwater forerunners.

I plan to do a Master's degree research on turtles.... possibly thermoregulation and/or basking... some day, when I have a way to pay for it. I wouldn't actually work an advisor whose specialty is herpetology, but a physiological ecologist at a nearby university has said he would work with me.

well... I think I have seen Terrapene carolina and T. ornata called "freshwater" turtles now that I think of it, but I didn't uderstand quite why. They have been observed to swim, and on hot days the soak in shallow water.... but they spend more time on land.

All box turtles are what we call freshwater turtles (as opposed to seaturtles). This term is not intended to carry with it any indication of the turtle's life history, but merely to distinguish between the two groups. As mentioned, researchers tend to study one group or the other. I am a freshwater turtle biologist, hence by inherent interest in Terrapene and why I enjoy frequenting this forum.
Where did you do your undergraduate?

I received my BS in biology (with plant biology emphasis and chemistry minor) at a little known college called Grand Valley State University, near Grand Rapids, Michigan. I was a grad student in bio at Michigan Technological University (in Michigan's Upper Peninsula) until illness forced me to take a medical leave.

Since thinking I want to go back to grad school, Grand Valley has added on a MS (Master of Science, which Canadians and those in the U.S. apparently abbreviate differently) program in biology. And, I realized I think I am more passionate about chelonians than plants now.

As I mentioned, my potential advisor is what I would call a animal physiological ecologist. He did his PhD dissertation at Michigan State University on a mammal (publishing part of his dissertation in the journal Phyiological Zoology). I emailed him in part because basking/thermoregulation has both ecological and physiological aspects. When I mentioned to Jim Harding that I thought I might work with this GVSU prof, he wrote back a comment that made me think Jim thought highly of this professor's understanding of biology and research - so despite not being a herpetologist, he do a great job advising one I get back in school.

Oh, Jim knows this professor because works at Michigan State U.

GVSU's main campus is in Allendale--NEAR Grand Rapids --but they do have a downtown Grand Rapids campus too. When I got my BS I only took courses at the main campus.

Yeah, I do not know why the two degrees are abbreviated differently between the two countries. Perhaps because BS and MS are widely used as acronyms for other terms. I suppose the lower case 's' for science is for clarity. My undergrad degree is abbreviated BScH (for honours).
I think your plan would work well. Many times (especially with herps) students work with advisors that specialize in the fields of biology most applicable to the study and the subject animals are inconsequential. So, an animal physiologist/ecologist would certainly be appropriate for your research. You can always round out the herpetological portion when selecting your advisory committee.
By the way, Ron started as a mammalogist and only turned to herpetology by necessity (there is a well-known story of his lemming study group being eaten by an escaped Tayra, forcing him to explore other options a few decades ago). He still does a lot of mammal work and instructs the mammalogy course at the University.

"Many times (especially with herps) students work with advisors that specialize in the fields of biology most applicable to the study and the subject animals are inconsequential."

I have a vague idea of what you mean by this, but I hope you can further explain it.

Since actual herpetologists are few and far between, many students design a project around basic biological principles and/or fields of study that do not require specialised knowledge of herps. Depending on your research, many of the same processes apply across all taxa.

Thanks for the answer

BTW, the potential advisor may have done research on a mammal, but since he teaches comparative vertebrate physiology he probably knows quite a bit about turtles and other herps.

Through what college, agency, or whatever, do you do research?

HA! I thought I had my hands full!

GASP! Oh, the Blandings...what I wouldn't give to work with Blandings *sigh*.

Brother, you're a lucky man! Of course, I know that it is more "hard work and tons of Ramen noodles" than luck.

How's about we all take an educational tour up to Canada...I'll drive.

..

>>Slightly off topic, but still turtles...
>>

And great photos to look at.
Thanks for posting them!
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PHRatz

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I sent some messages from this thread to Jim H., and here's what he had to say:

*****

I take a moderate view. It is certainly best not to purposely release box turtles well outside the range of their subspecies. But a little genetic mixing is natural (it's happened naturally all through geological time) and is sometimes a good thing.

As for disease, I do think that precautions should be taken to avoid releasing exotic diseases into the local environment. Hatchlings for release should be kept isolated from non-natives an exotics. But the actual threat is unclear and a bit overblown.

I know the guy who is releasing bog turtles. He is very consciencious and his program is bringing back bog turtles to places where they were gone. No problem at all.

Jim

I don't think there is a problem with it at all and I think some take this "don't release" thing a bit too far.

All you have to do is read about the natural history of box turtles and you see that they experience illness in the wild and that while some keep a relatively small home range, some roam farther. Thats why you see intergrades in certain parts of the country.

Epidemics have been recorded among wild turtle populations even though box turtles are relatively solitary creatures.

I would think the benefits of releasing headstarted juveniles would significantly outweigh any detriments.

Certainly even more caution should be taken with adults, but with caution, I think even some adults can be released, particularly if they are released into a habitat where they are known to have come from.

Wild turtles are subject to illnesses and other problems whether or not they encounter released turtles.

I very much appreciate all the information from these posts; especially the last two from chelonian71 and LisaOKC.

I live in North/Central NJ and I would like to release some of these hatchling turtles locally. However, based upon LisaOKC’s comment, “would think the benefits of releasing head started juveniles would significantly outweigh any detriments”, it appears that head started juveniles would do better in the wild than hatchlings. If that is the case, what is the optimum age of “head started juveniles?

i live in south jersey.i see some turtles here and there

What counties do you jersey peeps live in? I'm in camden county and know many many great boxie sites. Very interesting info in this post, thanks.

I also live in central Jersey. As you know everything is already built up here in Central Jersey. However There are a few parks, wildlife areas and preserved open spaces that will never be built on. For the most part these areas are small, a couple of hundred acres at the most. Some of it is really good box turtle habitat. The problem is that they are all isolated places. If a turtle stays in his preserved open space he will be OK. But if he try’s to walk out he is in trouble as its all roads with lots of big trucks. There is no way they could walk for one open space to the next. For the same reason No new turtles are able to walk in. I believe that in our area releasing a few hatchlings into the remaining open spaces is a good idea. In the rest of the country were there is lots of open space left I can see why some people would be against releasing the hatchlings.
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Jack

camden county also. i think we only live a few towns over where do you go ?

Mostly parks in middlesex county

Thomson park in Jamesberg
Pigon swamp state park
Davison mill park

All these parks are small but they do have some realy great box turtle habatate.

I was in Davison mill park several weeks ago to to me very surprise I found a beaver lodge there. At first when I saw all the small trees cut down i fugured it was some boy scouts. It did look like a beaver cut them down but, I tought know way was there beavers in Middlesex county. But there are.
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Jack

Thats right underdog I think we exchanged email messages before. I recently found some really awesome boxie populations right in the area of both our towns. Best part about it was there appeared to be some recruitment at both which is always a good thing. I have a friend who cuts lawns and saw like a dozen boxies one day while emptying out his mower in the woods right in your neck of the woods....by aluvium(sp?).

Jack I would watch how specific you get on those spots, their are lurkers on here with not so great intentions.

yea thats like 2mins from my house its so amazing there i havent gone back there in ages but we should all get togther since we all live within 20mins from each other haha lol