Reptile & Amphibian Forums

It's long been a (pipe)dream of mine to open my own reptile/amphibian conservation facility. I'd work with whatever animals I wanted and do things how I want. My own boss. Answer to no-one. I'm getting frustrated with my job at the zoo. I want to work with amphibian conservation and my zoo is committing to that cause but it looks like the soonest we'd actually start working with amphibians in earnest would be probably end of 2008 or 2009. I don't want to wait two years or more before I get to do something that really makes a difference. Hell I can buy frogs listed as critically endangered right now and start breeding them if only I had the funds and the space. I could actually be really DOING SOMETHING and doing it faster than the fat-ass bureaucratic machine that is the zoo I work for.

So, I know I'd have to have a grant or donations to be able to pursue the dream of opening my own facility. I'll simply never make enough money to do anything major on my own as a hobbyist. I've been researching setting up a 501(c)3 (non-profit) organization which would be the first step towards being able to acquire funds in the form of donations from corporations, government, foundations, etc. At the very least I'd have to shell out a few hundred of my own bucks to file all the paperwork but on top of that there are a lot of other requirements.

For instance, you have to have bylaws written down for your organization, a board of directors, regular meetings of said board, etc. Suddenly, running my own facility looks more like a lot of time spent sitting behind a desk and not enough time actually tending to animals and doing the hands-on work I so desperately want to do. It's one of those things that I know it would take a lot of time and hard work to set up.

My other option is to find another zoo to work for where they're actually working with a lot of amphibian species where I would be able to focus on solely on those aspects that interest me. Right now, only a fraction of my work interests me. A lot of what I am required to do I have no interest in such as operant conditioning of monkeys, collecting data for scientific studies of limited value undertaken solely to help pad some zoo-paid researcher's resume, etc. There's lots of other minor b.s. but it all adds up a lot of crap I have to do that either bores me totally or frustrates the hell out of me.

Of course my wife would love nothing more than for us to move to somewhere other than Chicago (preferably Kentucky), but the sad fact is that I get paid really well where I work right now and that is definitely NOT the norm at other zoos. So, moving to work at another zoo means almost assuredly a pay-cut and potentially enough of a pay-cut to make the move unrealistic, after all we both carry $300 /month payments on student loans. Doesn't leave much money for anything else once you figure everything else in.

The other option I'm more reluctant to consider is simply trying to breed and sell amphibians that have some market value like various species of Dart Frogs and using the profits of those sales to purchase breeding groups of the species that are listed as anything from vulnerable to critically endangered. I could also see designing and building my own line of cages and accessories which could also help generate funds to help support my conservation projects. What I DO find attractive about this option is that even though it's dependent on people buying your products which is always going to have it's ups and downs, it frees me from being responsible to all the non-profit paperwork, seeking out donors, etc.

Of course I trade those headaches for the headaches of running a business. Provided I keep a day job, I can always scale up or down the business or simply walk away from it, something that would be difficult to do with a non-profit. The major drawback is that a non-profit with sufficient funding could allow me to do a LOT more than I probably could by trying to fund my private conservation projects through retail sales.

I'm mostly just sounding off here. I don't know... any thoughts, questions, comments?
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Matt Campbell

"I only went out for a walk and finally concluded to stay out till sundown, for going out, I found, was really going in." John Muir

Matt,

While I don't for see myself on the conservation stand point there are many a species under such titles that I would love to be given the opportunity to work with. So I can understand you motivation.

Also I work directly for the man so I know what its like to not be given the say in something that directly reflects your position. I find it Ironic that the morons making the decisions will never see the consequences of those decisions. Makes it tough to stay motivated in an already demanding job.

For the last few years I have been building a collection of Boa's in the intent on breeding them. Now that I actually am anyone that says its easy money can @#$% off. Millions of problems arise everyday that I have to deal with. Not only do the jobs become greater the larger the collection grows but the infrastructure of support as well. Its easy to buy rats at a pet store to feed a single snake but purchasing 400 every quarter is entirly different.

Imagine those that breed their own prey or filter there own water or build there own cages. As the amount of animals increases those meaningless tasks grow and endur larger costs. Its one thing to build a cage for a pet but to build 20 as the number goes up the beauty of outsourcing becomes gratifing. Not to mention cleaning and general maintenance. AS the numbers increase the enjoyment seams to dwindle.

So as a man that has struggled over the years and continues to do so, and a man that has looked to the future, not to mention countless discussions with fellow herpers. Let me say that dreams have a tendency to become harsh reality's very quickly.

So if I gave any advice it would be to take the job that provides the best for your family and gives enough surplus cash for the hobbby. Than start small build up with "one" species or one genus (dart frogs for example) as a stretch. Build a stable base with species that's offspring can be easily be sold off. Not the species who's offspring are top end and little can afford or the bottom species that everybody already has. Something in the middle that is gaining popularity but still relativly undistruibuted.

Use that base not only to gain skill has a large scale breeder, not that your not successful at the zoo, but to help offset the cost of breeding groups of conservation animals. This will enduldge your passion while still maintaining your hobby, remember any good hobby becomes a great hobby when it becomes self sustaining.

Along the way you can use experiance in developing cages and hard to breed speicies. Than when the engine is running you can get conservationists behind you on the train. Remember that most people are tactile they want to see something not just promises. A well set up facility will gain much more poise to the community than Your word of the basements holdings.

Also this is a very demanding hobby we all have induldged at some point it will become one of 3 things;

A)Self sustaining hobby
B)Buisness with employee's
C)Failed attempt

Remember 70% of all buisnesses fail in the first year, starting small build equity and faith so that when you do need money your already a pro at the little things.

Believe me it seams like we are hotshots at work but if we had to do our same job at home without the corp. infrastructure it would be a lot harder.

Just a few passing thoughts you can make of as you wish.

Best of luck in you endevors!
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Jeremy

"I am become death, the destroyer of worlds" July 16, 1945 Robert Oppenheimer

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Matt,
I can relate to what you're dealing/struggling with, even though I don't (and never have) work for a zoo or animal facility.

I've been self-employed in the floorcovering installation business for nearly 16 yrs now. Self-employment is nice. Being able to schedule yourself off anytime you want, turning down jobs that you don't want to do, coming/going as you please, etc..., are all good perks of self-employment. These are all things that you can control, pick & choose.

What's not so visible to those that have never been self-employed is the very same thing that is hindering you from doing what you want to do now will actually control all of the above perks, and everything else: "The almighty dollar."

There will be times that you'll find yourself doing things that you hate or feel is meaningless, just like your current job functions, simply because you can't afford not to. You may need that income.

Being self-employed isn't for everyone. It requires dedication & determination, hard work, nerves of steel, and a cast iron stomach. Dedication, determination & hard work are obvious requirements, but nerves of steel & cast iron stomach may not be. You'll be needing these to deal with the lack of a steady income.

There are no guaranteed paychecks by simply showing up for work, punching a clock. It's hard to have peace of mind when you see that you don't have any money coming in (no jobs lined up or future sales in the works) but yet the bills never stop coming in. Nerves of steel and a cast iron stomach are essential. I went through cases of BC Powders and Rolaids my first few years, and still resort to them every now & then.

It's also a 24hr business, no momre 9 - 5 and then go home. You have to be structured in order to seperate work from family. Not an easy task for everyone, especially me.

Oh, did I mention the additional costs of business insurance and having to pay for your own health/life insurance?

Are you still with me? Good. If you've got what it takes, it's dang well worth it all! Go for! But I strongly recommend a gradual transition since you seem to have job security & you're making good money now. That is, unless you've got the money to take the plunge, but based on what you said, it doesn't sound like you do. Few people do.

I didn't have the funds to make the plunge when I did. I became self-employed a lot the same way your first post implies that you might, from frustration with employer.

In the small business world of retail the experts say that a person should have enough money to cover bills for the first 3 - 5 yrs of business, not expecting any income. That's a lot of money. In general, though, it usually takes about 1 1/2 yrs before a sustaining margin of income is seen. But with nerves of steel, cast iron stomach, confidence (without being stupid), some people know they've got what it takes to make it because they're a cut above, well above common/average. It doesn't matter how many people are already in that field when you've got something special to offer. There's a reason you've got the job you do, with the pay you get. It shows in your posts here on the forums, too. Plus, you've got that "commonsense" thing going for you, too. A lot of people these days seem to be lacking that, but I can tell you've got it.

Starting a non-profit organization can be painstaking, to say the least. It's hard to find willing participants (board members, sponsors, etc...). In trying to start a local reptile rescue I ran into wall after wall. I got discouraged and set it aside for the time being. Seems that the people I thought would be willing to help were too busy with other things. Hopefully I planted a seed and its sprouting so that the next time I go out into the field I can reap what I sowed.

It sounds like a lot of desk work, papperwork, meetings, etc..., but after the intial setup its not too bad. One of my uncles had a non-profit org for years and I got to se how things were done.

Coaching Little League for the last several years has helped me sharpen my "begging" skills. Yes, you're gonna have to practically beg for money, funding, and at times it feels degrading.

The hardest parts of it all is deciding what to do (where you're at now) and getting things started. Once you get started and you have that special thing going on like you do, things will take care of themselves.

My recommendation:
Continue eating crow pies where you're at now. Use the security of the steady, good, income you have now to your advantage. Use the zoo, for a change, instead of just them using you. It works both ways. Spend every spare minute drumming up support, networking, building prospective relationships, start building a breeding collection, etc...

Keep collecting data on how many times, under what temperatures and locations, the monkeys scratch their genitals. Give the data to the perverted, idiotic, scientist for them to do as they please with it (without making suggestions to them. LOL!)

It's your turn to to use the zoo, Matt. Turn a bad situation into something good. You can do it. You've just gotta remember, don't dwell on the bad, it only makes it worse.

You've got a long, hard, road in front of you. Prepare yourself for the trip. Commit to it and take it one step at a time. It's easy to be overwhelmed by looking at the overall picture of all the tasks that need to be done. Don't look at it that way. Focus on each task, one at a time, one step at a time. You'll make it!

I wish you the very best! I don't know how I could help out but feel free to call on me. I'd be more than glad to send you your first donation. It wouldn't be much more than a bill to frame but it could be a start.

Hang in there!
HH
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

Thanks for the input. I posted this same thing over on my blog but my friends over there can barely relate to my job let alone the concerns I voiced. I knew I'd get a better response over here. I think you guys both made some great points and that kinda helped to shore up what I was already thinking. It's pretty hard to really want to chuck it all and start your own thing especially when you can never truly prepare yourself for what you'll have to face [needing that cast iron stomach]. I do get paid pretty well, and that's probably because we're union zookeepers, but anyway I get paid well enough to allow me to pay my bills and occasionally buy some herps or caging supplies on the side and I can't really complain about that.

I think the path I was already on was what Jeremy was mentioning - breeding species and showing that you have successes at it before you go to someone with a bunch of dreams and no proof. I'd already started with Dart frogs to help generate some money to get rarer species. My darts aren't even of breeding age yet so I know I just need to be a little more patient and wait for that to play out. I'm also hoping to breed Red-eyes and that too will take some time and experimentation to see that realized.

Something Jeremy also mentioned was how much more money a bigger operation sucks up along with your time and possibly your enjoyment. My collection was at it's most un-fun burdensome when I had over 30 snakes and my total collection including snakes weighed in over 50 animals. Since I downsized and moved my focus more towards amphibians I've been a lot happier. There's something to be said for not letting things get out of hand.

Now, something that Michael mentioned I am already doing. He mentioned using the zoo. Well, if you guys will remember I went to Henry Doorly Zoo back in May to observe their newly constructed amphibian quarantine facility. The zoo paid for me to go out there and see how HDZ does things so that when the time comes we could apply the same techniques to our own facilities. This October they're sending me to Toledo Zoo for a week-long Amphibian Biology and Management course. Again, all of what I learn will be able to be applied not only to the zoo but what I choose to do at home.

All of these zoo-sponsored trips give me the opportunity to learn on their nickel and apply that to whatever we choose to do as well as what I work with at home. In that regard I'm trying to make the most of my opportunities at the zoo. I also know that every chance I get to go to something like the class gives me chances to network with curators and employees of other zoos so maybe down the road I could stand a better chance of getting employed elsewhere should the opportunity arise.

I think Michael's insights into running a business have given me enough pause to think about that a lot longer. I think I've always been impatient and I've often burst off to work with some new idea before I've really exhausted whatever the last thing was that I was working on. This is no different. What you guys pointed out has really helped me to kinda of center my thoughts. I'm on the right track right now - working with a few species and polishing my skills on them with an eye towards more tricky and/or rare things a little farther off. That's something I can do right now and I have the comfort and security of regular employment. Anyway, thanks for the input guys.
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Matt Campbell

"I only went out for a walk and finally concluded to stay out till sundown, for going out, I found, was really going in." John Muir

I have seen many former zoo workers build up their private collections to the point that they could quit their day job and do their own private breeding fulltime.

I would be really careful about financing a really big project as it can be tough to get the cash flowing in quick enough to pay those bills.

I agree with everything in the other posts, and I'd like to add just one thing.

To me it sounds like you ARE DOING SOMETHING. Your zoo sounds like it is motivated to get behind this amphibian conservation thing. And they are doing all the things that you don't want to do for you, the paper work, grants, begging. If you did try to "do something" on your own. It would be at least a few years before anything was really up and running.

If you want to do your own thing, become self employed, or manage things differently than the zoo, then by all means go for it. But if you care about working with amphibian conservation, it sounds to me like you are in a sweet spot and you just need to be patient with an anoying job a little longer. I could think of worse things than playing with monkeys, getting a steady pay check, and waiting for my job to get a whole lot cooler next year.

Cheers, and good luck.

I wasn't necessarily talking about quiting my job tomorrow or anything. I know it's going to take a while for my zoo to get up and running where amphibian conservation is concerned. I was simply feeling out advice regarding starting now to work towards opening my own facility. At best I could hope that opening my own facility might only take a few years to get rolling. A co-worker took 9 years to get his own idea for a baboon rescue facility up and running. What I heard from Jeremy and Michael served to strengthen my own thoughts that I should continue to work small-scale on my own while I wait for something bigger to get going at the zoo and in the meantime take the opportunities presented by the zoo to increase my knowledge and experience. So, that's what I'm going to do for the time being. I know once I've successfully bred some rare species I'll have a lot more going for me when it comes time to try and start my own non-profit facility should I decide to go that way.
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Matt Campbell

"I only went out for a walk and finally concluded to stay out till sundown, for going out, I found, was really going in." John Muir

First off I wish you the best of luck. Most business as it becomes bigger becomes more and more bureaucratic. It's kind of the nature of the beast. Working at a zoo will be no different in this sense than any other big business.

Others have made excellent points. A steady, reliable paycheck, health insurance etc.. is very enticing and often times necessary unless you are independantly wealthy.

With that being said, you never know what you can achieve without actually trying it. You need tons of moxy to start your own business. Most of them fail for a variety of reasons. Some people are able to maintain them and other's really succeed.

I thinking starting off slow is the best way to go (seems like your headed in this direction). You have found something you love. That's a good start. Now you need to really see how profitable it can be. If your not making money it may (most likely will) become burdensome and lose it's appeal.

Find out how many people will actually buy these frog's you plan to reproduce. How much can you sell them for? What's the cost of producing, raising, maintaining them? How variable is the market? How quickly can you adapt to a changing marketplace?

A little leg work will go a long way. Starting out small allows you to test the waters and get some actual data and ideas from doing it. Heck you enjoy keeping them anyway, might as well give it a shot and see what happens so long as you don't put yourself in huge debt to do it.

Somebody once told me to learn from your job then take the knowledge and start your own business. The older I get the more I realize the truth behind this. Most employers don't reward their best employees. The one's that challenge the status quo and conventional knowledge. In most cases they want drones to carry out a mindless task and not ask questions. This is not always the case but more often than not it will be.

I now gladly take their money and agree with their ridiculous ideas and goals. They seem to enjoy the fake enthusiasm and the ensuing boost to their confidence. Keep your own good ideas in your mind and apply them when it counts.

good luck

If you were to start right now with your plans, it might be a couple of years before you got up and running. So why not stay at the zoo and use the time and zoo to your benefit, like mentioned before.

Do you have an idea what species the zoo might be looking into? Become the resident expert in those species now. When you go to the other zoos, bring along a video camera and get the whole facility on tape. Ask them if they had to do it all over again, what they would change if anything. That way you avoid those mistakes. Use what you learn there and use it at home now and at the zoo in a year or two.

Could you make a video presentation for your bosses? Could you pay to have one made up? Would something like this impress your bosses enough to make sure that they know you are serious about this? Some high schools have a video production class. Maybe you could get a couple of students to do it for you?

By sending you to the other zoos and checking things out, it sounds like the zoo you are at wants you to be "in charge" when they do it. If not in charge, maybe the #2 position. Make it so they ask you to take over the project. Become the expert that they might need to hire. Make yourself indispensable. Know the answers to all the probable questions your zoo will have.

This might not be exactly what you were looking for in a reply, just some thoughts. I wish you the best in what you do.
Rob

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For Sale cheap: One (1) 6' 19 yr old male. Does no house work. Has no job and will complain. Constantly.
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Rob,

A lot of what you mention I've already been doing. When I went to Henry Doorly Zoo to observe on my own zoo's nickel, I came back and produced a PowerPoint presentation based on what I saw at Henry Doorly. At HDZ they've already solved a lot of problems regarding how to produce amphibians in captivity in an efficient easily managed way with a minimum of variables. I talked with my curator today about some amphibian issues and she gave me the assignment of researching some more common species of amphibians we could acquire to begin displaying more amphibians and to help us better gear up for the future amphibian quarantine facility. I know now that I'm in a pretty good spot and the approach I'm currently taking is the best route for now. I'll continue to push for whatever I can at work and learn as the opportunity presents itself and then on the side I'll continue to try and sharpen my skills in breeding so that down the road I'll have more to show for my efforts if/when it comes to starting that non-profit facility and soliciting the big-money grants.
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Matt Campbell

"I only went out for a walk and finally concluded to stay out till sundown, for going out, I found, was really going in." John Muir

Matt,

As you are well aware you're considering a huge undertaking. With property costs very high, you would definitely need to look for a rural area where you could lease/buy property less expensively. Also consider a climate that would allow you to house animals in outside enclosures, needing less cost.

I would suggest looking for some obscure Government programs that could possibly allow you use of the land at a reduced cost. Also you could try starting herp shows/expos and retain any proceeds as seed money. Use them as a springboard. You could do all this while maintaining your "day" job.

I have no experience in raising funds as a non-profit org. but I am pretty sure it will be difficult. You may end up being more of a sales person then conservationist. Maybe you can seek out some sponsors of the zoo you currently work at.

One of the cable channels - maybe Animal Planet has this series called "Growing up ____" (insert animal name). Where they follow a baby animal that is being raised by people, such as a panther cub, or bear. I have seen shows where families live on considerable acreage with a sign calling it "So and So nature conservatory, NOT OPEN TO THE PUBLIC", yet during the show they state they are publicly funded. The long story is there are funds there somewhere, you just have to find out how to get your share.

Be creative and do as much research as possible. Figure out a way to lay the ground work while doing the 9 - 5 thing.

And remember, the only thing more painful then failure is regret.

Good luck in your endeavors.