Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi

I'm new to this forum, and have a savannah monitor which is 2 years old and approx. 3 1/2 ft long. I have recently upgraded him from a 6ft to a 8x4 viv keeping him on 12-18 ins topsoil/sand mix (80:20) as per recommendations. Cool side is 72-75 and warm side is 85-87 with a basking area heated by halogen floods to a nice toasty 150. So he now has plenty of room to move about and to get all his proper temps I couldn't achieve before in the 6ft one.

Problem is, I think he is rather fat - not really obese fat but definitely rounder in the belly than he should be so I want him to lose that and become a leaner, healthier sav.

I have seen 2 distinct chains of thought regarding sav diet - one being they eat 80% insects in the wild so should only get 1-2 mice per week - the other is that if they have the proper basking temps (which he does have now) a more rodent based diet is good. However, as I want mine to lose weight first I am looking for advice on how much (or little) should I give him per week.

Thanks for your time.

You just got to stop feeding it. Period. Its not what you feed it. First off, neither rodents or crickets are donuts, cakes and pies. Both are a natural whole food. If you were asking about partial foods like a single part of an animal, then I would recomend ditching that and sticking to whole food items(of many many kinds) After that its about the inherent design of the species.

No offense, but your not thinking in any way thats appliable to that monitor. They are not humans, period. So going on a diet is very silly.

Savs are designed to store fat and then fast. That allows them to survive several months of extreme dry season(varying lengths of time). Thats why they are build like they are. They evolved the ability to exsist over long periods of drought. This allowed them to live in the habitat they do. (with ball pythons). I mention varying lenghts of time for a reason. They can survive a long period of drought, but not two or three in a row. That will ware them down and they will fail.

So you feeding them anything on a regular schedule is pretty much foreign to them and will result in males getting fat. After they mature.

Also, not feeding them can be dangerous as the conditions have to be right or they will perish. Going that long without food can be very dangerous unless the conditions are right.

So I do not go long long periods with that type of monitor(albig complex). I often go a week here and there, or feeding once a week, then a couple of weeks without food. Only feeding heavily before any breeding attempts(to sire) Remember this is done, after they have grown up.

Females lay lots of eggs and this prevents them for getting fat.(in kept properly)

Oh and about those giving you advice. Why would you listen to them? Have anyone of them actually had longterm success? any success? or are they just like you, newbies giving newbies advice? I am not saying what they are, but before you listen to anyone, make sure they have results that support what they say. Because surely anyone and everyone says all kind of stuff. You see, its not their job to proof what they say, its your job to prove what they say, your the one asking questions(the one with the problem)Cheers

Thank you very much, FR - that is very helpful - and I know who you are so I know the advice to be sound. So I've fed him a couple handfuls of locusts today and he wasn't particularly worried about them. I was always (obviously mistakenly) under the impression that they can have as many insects as they like just go easy on the rodents - therefore he was getting insects everyday.

As I'm actually off on vacation for a couple of weeks next weekend with somebody coming in to do my reptiles' water and check temps etc so I think I shall give him some more insects mid week then some just before I go on vacation. While I'm away that first week he could have his "fast" and the carer can give him some insects or a mouse or two the following weekend - then I return I can try feeding him every other day. Does that sound good to you?

I still consider myself a newbie at monitors and am grateful for your reply.

What temps should savs be kept at when being fed once a week?
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Shannon in Reno
1.0 savannah monitor (Pombe-means "beer" in Swahili)
2.4 dogs
1.0 cat
5.32 rats
6.44 mice
7.50 chickens
1.2 beardies
0.1 black rat snake
~500 hissers
1 giant millipede
0.1 Chissel tooth kangaroo rat
1.1 rabbits
1.0 wonderful husband

Which is believe is a problem for you. You think you know, but actually do not get it. Or so it appears.

If you offer a range of temps, LIKE in nature, it can pick what it needs. Thats why you offer a range, you do not have to change the cage temps for every little thing.

Consider, NO reptile lives naturally where the conditions are consistantly one temp. They all live in an enviornment that is both colder and hotter then what people think they should be kept at. This is where FR/GOANNAMAN came in and sparked the hot basking trend which as allowed the success rate to jump dramatically. But in doing so, you must also offer cooler temps. As they use a RANGE.

Its what makes cold blooded/ectotherms, what they are, its because they mostly create their temps externally, and do not require a consistant temp. But use a range of temps in the case of reptiles. Cool to conserve, hot to excell, Or in some bodily needs to function.

In our field studies, we rarely record two snakes with the exact same temps, but we always record the snakes in a similar range of temps. The snakes on our study site are commonly from 16 to 28 degrees C. Nearly a 50% common variation. Of course we have recorded them well above and below that. The extremes are from barely above freezing. to slighly hotter, but consider, extreme heat quickly kills. Cold must be well below freezing to kill.

After you work with natural animals for a while, you can tell what they are doing behaviorally, by the body and head temps(which are normally different)

This variation is common amoung snakes, and lizards, but legged reptiles often use a much wider range for the simple reason they have a better ability to chance their temps. They have legs. And can simply and easily move from one temp range to another, and heres the key word, SAFELY. Legs give them the ability to reach and exit extreme temps safely.

So it appears a major function of well developed legs is to efficently move to more suitable temps. And monitors have well developed legs.

So keeping a reptile in a narrow temp range is limiting its natural, normal ability to self regulate its body temps(for the greatest efficency).

In captivity It becomes a game of averages. Yes I can keep a snake at 84.2, that in nature would use temps in the 60's to low 70's the majority of the time and use higher temps up into the 90's F for particular tasks. But doing so limits the snakes abilities.

Most notibly the immune system, why captives get sick and die so easily. Or reproduction. Or even shedding. All those require some degree of higher temps to accomplish correctly. Or even growth is limited by not reaching optimal temps for growth. An average temp reveals average results. Are you getting this. It was taught to you in bio 1. why a reptile is a reptile. Or should have been. Cheers

My sav is kept at your recommended temps. Each "monitor expert" seems to tell me something different. Would feeding only once a week be considered fasting? I was told that when fasting the temps should be kept low and to remove the basking spot. I am not doing this, I was just checking for your imput. What is the longest that you should fast if there is an obese animal? Keep fasting until is has a healthier appearence? Or feed once a week and see what happens? What have you found that works best for obese savs? JC or JP I can't remember the name of the sav breeder, told me to feed my sav 1 small adult rat daily and keep the temps at what you recommend and he should loose weight. I did this for a few months and he looked like he was going to explode, so I stopped. I have tried everything but fasting because the sav breeder told me to not even fast him for a day. I would like to try fasting or feeding once a week and see what happens but I would like to gather the best info before hand. He currently gets small meals daily and is obese. He no longer gets eggs or meal worms as per the sav breeder. He gets roaches and rodents. I am going to get some night crawlers to encorage him to dig. What is your advise, Frank, as to get him to lose some weight?
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Shannon in Reno
1.0 savannah monitor (Pombe-means "beer" in Swahili)
2.4 dogs
1.0 cat
5.32 rats
6.44 mice
7.50 chickens
1.2 beardies
0.1 black rat snake
~500 hissers
1 giant millipede
0.1 Chissel tooth kangaroo rat
1.1 rabbits
1.0 wonderful husband

I know my name's not Frank but I'm just trying to help. I'll back out after this post. I just wanted to point out that Frank said this earlier in this thread;

"About me mentioning the fasting. This does not have to be applied."

I'm gone! Hahahaha!!!

Have a good one!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

JC did well, but he did not keep Savs a long period. He also was out of context. Hes talking about breeding females, not mature males. He got rid of them or lost them before he could learn what the ramifications of fat males means.

I wish I could help, but I feel your sensitive to your monitors needs. And hunger is a real expressed need. The dang things are always hungry. That I understand.

Its far easier to prevent the fix. In order to fix your monitors condition, you flat have to torture it. or so it seems.

If you lower the temps, it will lower its need for food and not lose weight. You have to JUST NOT FEED IT FOR LONG PERIODs.

I know, I will be yelled at, But hey its FR, he does not care. Its very hard on me, but I have gone months without feeding males. They flat refuse to lose weight. Its against their biology.

The first consideration is, HEALTH, if its healthy it will not be a problem. If its not, its most likely dead.

I do understand its a tuff road and its a road thats hard on the keeper.

Like all other aspects of husbandry, its about making choices(you this time) Its not cut and dry. You may feed a few insects a week, my bet is, it will not lose weight on that. You have to keep an eye on him and error on the feeding side.

I say that because as they age, they tend to drop lots of fat. Old monitors lose the ability to store fat, or at least theres no more reason to store fat. Of course, thats not all of them in all conditions. Cheers

Thank you very much. I have no problem not feeding him, 1-it is what they do and 2-if it is going to help him. I will start with keeping his temps at what they are and feed him only once a week. And if he does not loose, I will feed him less. Does this plan sound like a sensible idea? Thank you very much.
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Shannon in Reno
1.0 savannah monitor (Pombe-means "beer" in Swahili)
2.4 dogs
1.0 cat
5.32 rats
6.44 mice
7.50 chickens
1.2 beardies
0.1 black rat snake
~500 hissers
1 giant millipede
0.1 Chissel tooth kangaroo rat
1.1 rabbits
1.0 wonderful husband

Thats sounds good and I know you will keep an eye on him. Good luck

Thank you so much and I will keep you updated. He is already giving me stink eye.

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Shannon in Reno
1.0 savannah monitor (Pombe-means "beer" in Swahili)
2.4 dogs
1.0 cat
5.32 rats
6.44 mice
7.50 chickens
1.2 beardies
0.1 black rat snake
~500 hissers
1 giant millipede
0.1 Chissel tooth kangaroo rat
1.1 rabbits
1.0 wonderful husband

Ha! Thanks for reminding me to keep my nose out of other people's business, no matter how bad I want to try to help.

A mistake I will not duplicate, EVER.
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

You better do it again. and again. Why you ask, because you are so entertaining. And well FUN.

Most likely what this forum needs more then accurate usable information is, FUN. I thank you for that and you dang well better keep it up. Cheers

Don't tell me you believed me when I wrote "A mistake I will not duplicate, EVER."

Hahahaha!!! I can only wish. But it was a good refresher lesson for me. I got locked into my tunnel vision, and we know what that does.

Have a good one!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

What whole food item do you think would be the most benificial nutritionally for my sav to eat once a week? Thank
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Shannon in Reno
1.0 savannah monitor (Pombe-means "beer" in Swahili)
2.4 dogs
1.0 cat
5.32 rats
6.44 mice
7.50 chickens
1.2 beardies
0.1 black rat snake
~500 hissers
1 giant millipede
0.1 Chissel tooth kangaroo rat
1.1 rabbits
1.0 wonderful husband

I would not be concerned with nutrition. In a case like this, or even with general husbandry, I would be more concerned with roughage. So things with lots of fur, lots of feathers, insect chitin and reptile scales.

I think also in a case of minimal feeding, I would rotate some of the above. And don't worry about twice a week sometimes, once a week other times, just keep the feed down. Again good luck.

I would not be concerned about nutrition, with whole food items. Whewwwww

Thank you so much. I still can't find nutritional values of hissers. The place I bought them from has no idea. Not that it really matters, I am just curious. I would like to know more for my chickens. They need really high protien at certain times of the year. I give them cat food and f/t mice. But cat food has so much crap in it and they love the roaches. I would like to replace the cat food with roaches but don't want to until I can at least get an idea about roach nutritional facts. Anyway, thanks again.
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Shannon in Reno
1.0 savannah monitor (Pombe-means "beer" in Swahili)
2.4 dogs
1.0 cat
5.32 rats
6.44 mice
7.50 chickens
1.2 beardies
0.1 black rat snake
~500 hissers
1 giant millipede
0.1 Chissel tooth kangaroo rat
1.1 rabbits
1.0 wonderful husband

Hi Shannon!
Don't be embarrassed about your question, it's a common thought among us newbies. Unfortunately, it's also the reason so many of us fail, and/or the reason our captives don't achieve their maximum potential.

We naturally think that as keepers we should control our captives' environment. To some extent this is true, but, the main goal, I believe, is to give our captives plenty of choices and let them do the controlling, decision making. This is what I was referring to in my first reply to RoyalBP, when I said, "Sounds like you might already be aware of how broad temperature ranges are beneficial to their metabolism." and "I think that now you've given him a broader temp range, if you'll watch his weight and adjust prey size/amount as you go, you'll start seeing a change."

If I'm not mistaken, I see/understand your train of thought. Sounds to me that you're thinking that if a sav is only fed once a week we should, could, adjust temp settings to increase/decrease its metabolism, depending on if we want the sav to lose weight, gain weight or simply maintain weight.

I feel that you're actually thinking as a good keeper, however, not as a good monitor. The word "monitor" can have various meanings in this aspect, but I'm mostly referring to the animal.

That's just my thoughts, my 2 cents' worth, on your question.

Take care!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

I am posting this for the Nutrition querry.

Here are some articles I have done for colubrids on Carotenoids.
There are over 600 Carotenoids found in nature and about seven to ten that involve transferable color. Of those there are four that are stable in the host. There is one pink-red, one orange red, and two yellow. The natural source for the two red colorants in nature are xxxxxxxxx and xxxxxxxx. The direct source in nature is insects , crustaceans, birds bird chicks and wild bird eggs. These Carotenoids are found in the exoskeleton of these invertebrates hence their red color when boiled, and birds. These pigments are stored in the flesh and Carotin (not to be confused with Carotene) of host animals such as lizards, bats, fish and birds feeding on them. These pigments are responsible for the bright colors in bird feathers, fishes scales and yes reptile scales (Scales are made of Carotin). A diet of domestic mice are void of these essential carotenoids unless supplemented. The poultry and fish industry has to supplement certain Carotenoids to make your egg yokes yellow-orange, chicken flesh yellow and salmon pink. A pink flamingo is white without xxxxxxxx and Salmon flesh is white like trout without xxxxxxxxx. In humans xxxxxxxxxx was sold as a no sun tanning oral supplement. Imported and wild caught reptiles often come in with vivid coloration and fade with time. I have seen Yellow-tailed Cribos come in orange yellow and turn almost white as time goes by. I have seen captive hatched yellow-tail Cribos that were almost white turn vivid orange-yellow a mirror image of the nicest import when supplemented. Why? My hunch was the imports were raiding bird nests, hatchlings gut loaded with insects. I have accounts from Barry Kuen who has now caught four screaming orange Trans Pecos Rat-snakes in his 40 or so years of collecting and when asked why he released them his reply was they only fed on lizards. Go figure. Since these Carotenoids are stable once in the host they will be there for years but birds will shed feathers and snakes will shed skin thus diluting effects over time. A captive specimen under stress will convert the Carotenoids in its flesh into vitamins. I wish I could share more information but I am working on this in cooperation with another party and the individual does not want to go public with the specifics hence xxxxxxxx.

Some wild sources of Carotenoids of which there are 600 contain the color which makes some redder than others. If a youngster has had a first meal of grasshoppers (which contain the same red in their exoskeleton as lobster, krill, shrimp and the like) red when boiled or in digestive acid, might get a jump on the red game likewise switching to lizards that feed on grasshoppers again, source for red. The highest concentration of these Cartenoids are found in first certain insects, secondary hosts are lizards, birds and Bats. Rodents seldom have these carotenoids in great amount. You will find red and pink specimens in populations of otherwise brown specimens. Since I have been raising coachwhip snakes for 12 years now I have noticed (1), wild red specimens fade to a dull pink within two years. (2) when supplemented will turn bright pink or red again. (3) hatchlings with no supplement will not color up well. (4) with supplement will start expressing red as hatchlings once feeding. (5) I have had two year olds that were still brown without supplement. I have been using two nature exact carotenoids not carotene as in carrots but nature exact Carotenoids that mimic an insect diet rich in red color. The interesting thing about Carotenoids is that an animal can manufacture vitamins by using the carotenoids found in it’s flesh and skin. Carotenoids are not vitamins but like beta-carotene your body can use it to make vitamin A. The second benefit is it is used for reproduction. Ever notice how orange a wild egg yoke is? Ever notice how red salmon eggs and flesh are? That is the color of the nature exact Carotenoid and yes increases fertility. Here is yellowtail siblings one got Supliment one did not, filmed in natural sun.

No Supliment

Supliment

A red factor Canary has a gene from a red siskin. Without a certain carotenoid supplement the feathers are yellow. With the supplement the feathers are red. Some carotenoids will add color with no gene present but the carotenoid responsible for coloring feathers and scales in most cases has to have a gene present that uses the Carotenoid. Just as not all birds are flamingos and not all snakes (lizards) are coachwhips yet I have now witnessed the effects on nine species of snake. Yellow species, albino, and red species are most dramatic. Carotenoids have added color to the following. Spilotes, Yellowtailed Cribo, Grey Banded Kingsnake, Bull Snake, Albino Rosy, Trans Pecos Ratsnake, Coachwhip and Unicolor Cribo. The effects vary from species to species but is dramatic in some cases. Here is a Greyband that had light yellow centers in the orange.

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"Life without risk is to merely exist."

Hi, RoyalBP! Welcome to the monitor forum!

FR is right in his closing comments about who you accept info from. You see, there are many newbies, LIKE ME, that want to try to help but sometimes we don't have all of our ducks (or monitors) in a row. And sometimes, some of us are just plain quacks. LOL!!!

You see, I don't take FR's closing comments offensively, even though I'm included in them, and neither should anyone else. Only a person with experience should state something as a fact, the rest of us should do just what you did, state that "we have heard or seen it said that such-n-such..." Definitely, always know your source.

Now, with that said, take what I'm about to say with a grain of salt, unless it's confirmed by someone in the know. My experience? I've kept a male sav alive for 8 months, period. I don't know if that would even qualify me as a keeper in scientific terms, but let's not get into "scientific" stuff now. LOL!!!

I believe the reason for 80% insect consumption in the wild, if that's what it actually is, is due to abundance, availability, opportunity, and not a choice or preferrence.

I beleive that rodents are more nutritious than any insect. Consider how it's recommended to gutload & dust insects in captivity, but not rodents. Rodents don't need it.

I commend you for your care in wanting to keep your sav from being a fat pig like some want them to look like just to create a huge mass as a form of impression.

Sounds like you might already be aware of how broad temperature ranges are beneficial to their metabolism. I don't think anyone can say, "feed it x-amount of rodents, weighing x-amount of grams, each week," or anything like that. Your setup & your sav is different from everyone else's.

I believe that smaller meals, given more often are better than large meals. I say that for ANY reptile. Heck, I say that for any animal, period. Now, you have to use a lil' bit of common sense, though. You've got to give him more than a mouse pup per meal. Each meal has to be more than just a mere snack. What I'm saying is, "Don't carry the "smaller meals" to an extreme. I'm sure you get the picture.

I think that now you've given him a broader temp range, if you'll watch his weight and adjust prey size/amount as you go, you'll start seeing a change. This includes withholding food like FR said.

Do you have more than one basking site (offering a different basking temp)? Be careful with the outdoor halogen flood lamps, FR mentioned something the other day about one brand switching designs to where the middle of the beam is no longer diffused and can cause burns if you're not careful.

Have a good one!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

Hi and thank you for the welcome, HH! I've actually lurked awhile, but never posted anything yet but read loads - on this and on repticzone which seems to have some people on it that seem experienced.

I'm not offended at all - it's all about what is best for my sav and the best way to go about things. I've always liked FR's comment he's made to other people saying he's not the expert, the monitor is, and to pay attention to it - it makes a lot of sense - like my sav today looking at the locusts as if to say - well I'll eat them just coz they're there!

Smaller meals is what I give my BP too - some people seem to stuff as large a rat as they can into it but I tend to go for the same girth or slightly smaller than the snake.

The vivarium has varying degrees of temps throughout from about 74-75 up to 86-89 ambient temps. He has some rocks set up (2 of which are actually caves as well) under the basking lights - so basking temp is about 150. He can sit either side of these rocks lower down so would have a different temp there. Maybe I can post a pic of the new viv now it's done - I'm pretty proud of it though it was my hubby that actually did it

I think my halogen lights are OK - I'm in the UK so we have different ones I think - we seem unable to get 45w ones so I have 3 x 60w ones. They aren't the ones with a clear centre which I have been told can cause burns.

Does my idea for the next 3 weeks sound OK? I don't want to starve him LOL! Or would it be better to wait until I get back and can keep an eye on him while it's going on?

Thank you very much for your input it's greatly appreciated.

Yeah, I'd like to see a few pics of your setup, I always enjoy seeing different setups, different ideas & techniques. Be sure to include a pic of your sav, too.

You're the engineer and it sounds like you're on the right track, and FR has hitched up the caboose with the good info he gave. "All aboooooaaaaarrrd!"

I just got back from vacation last week, was gone for just over a week. I fed my sav a small rat the day before I left. I think the lil' sucker slipped out of his cage and raided my rat room while I was gone because it looked like he gained a lil' weight instead of losing any. Mine's a tad chubby.

I figured he'd go bonkers when I fed him since it's been awhile but he wasn't any more aggressive/eager than usual, after all, he is a 2ft male sav. Hahaha!!!

Based on what little I know, from my personal experience and from what Frank said, I'd say your feeding schedule for the upcoming weeks sounds about right. The only thing I might do differently is feed him rodent(s) the 2nd meal, the one just before you leave. I just like mixing it up, variety, if I were feeding him insects, that is. Mine hasn't seen any insects since I've had him. Strictly rats, with an occasional meal of fish once in a great while. (Why fish? Heh, when I buy a few dozen baitfish for my gator every now & then he sometimes goes ballistic and kills several without eating them. I give those to my sav.)

When I said "This includes withholding food like FR said." I didn't mean for long periods at a time, I meant skipping a meal here, meal there.

FR,
When you said, "About me mentioning the fasting. This does not have to be applied." are you saying that reducing prey amount/size and stimulation will work, or, an occassional withholding of a meal along with both stimulation & prey amount/size reduction, combined, should be used?

I can only imagine that we can only stimulate a sav so much, so I'm thinking that in some cases it may be necessary to withold a meal here & there. Of course, there are quite a few variables involved.

Have a good one!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

Wow - what a strange layout this forum has - I checked yesterday and there seemed nothing else and now there's more and it's all over the place LOL.. Anyway, here are my pics

This is the cool end - ambient temp between 70 and 74

this is the warm end - ambient temp 84-89 - basking spot guns at 145-150 and he can sit the length of it

He has the flat cork/bark things and caves dotted about and a really long cork/bark strip I just put in couple of days ago which he loves that stretches from halfway in his hot end to halfway in his cool end. He tends to sit underneath it right in the middle where the temp is reading about 80. One thing I've found since that long cork bark has gone in - he hardly seems to have come out - not even for the odd locust that's floating around in there. It's like having an empty vivarium - maybe he's put himself on a diet!

This is a closer up pic of him

> > > Wow - what a strange layout this forum has

Yeah, this forum software has little to be desired.

Your setup looks nice and I hope it functions as well as it looks. From what you've said, sounds like it does. Your hubby did well.

Thanks for sharing the pics!

HH
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

Ok, a couple of things, You keep a Sav for eight months. Scientifically, that makes you an expert,(hahahahahahahahahaha joke, humor, and bad attitude) Science does not keep them, in general, but only to do an experiment or two before the semester is over.

About me mentioning the fasting. This does not have to be applied. I only brought it to attention because its important you understand what the animal is designed to do and why. That way, you can make decisions on something sound(about the actual animal).

This whole senario about feeding is funny to me. ITs kinda like when I was bit by rattlesnakes(yes, more then one) The doctors have two areas of concern. One to get control of your condition, protien levels, etc. Then two, attack the destructive agent. But there is only one way to attack, that is to apply antivenom. Which often times is more destructive then the actual bite. So whats a doc to do? So, for good bad or indifferent, they attack and often cause harm to the patient(at this time, you are losing patience)(pun intended) This paragraph means, the tool that fixes is also the tool that harms.

So, the keeper adjusts by feeding differently, but its still feeding. Ain't going to work. Why you ask, because if you cut back food, the monitor adjusts by cutting back of metabolism. "Stalemate". You see, thats the other thing inherent to reptiles, they run at a speed conditional to their energy intake. So you think its hard for humans to lose weight, hahahahahaha what if humans would cut their metabolism each time you lower calories.

Lets use a scale of 1 to 100. Now relate that to degrees of temp which equals metabolism(the burning of energy) Humans run at 98.6 or slightly above when needed. But to drop below that causes serious harm. So for a human to decrease weight by metabolism, they exercise(to burn more). But it will not work if they increase calories at the same time(to consume more). So, you increase your metabolism and decrease your calories. You have to burn more then you take in.

With reptiles, they run at no set speed. They run at 40 or 50 or sixty, or 90 or even 98.6. or above. depending on age, size, and task and CALORIE INTAKE. Lowering one, lowers the other and more. Much more difficult.

You see, the prime task for reptiles and particularly this type of reptile, is to not waste any energy. As in, to conserve as much energy as you can. Then expend as much as you can, to only conserve as much as you can. In other words, if you do not have it, you cannot use it. No credit cards in nature. Their task inherently is to GET FAT. But by design, that fat has a use.

The problem with most captive conditions is, there is nothing to spend your savings on. Therefore its nearly impossible to balance design of the animal with any normal scheduled feedings. The point of my previous post was to make that apparent.

I choose to let them do what has the highest energy cost, to reproduce. So females use all and more, available energy in reproduction(another inherent design) Males often spend more time seeking and securing female companionship during this time. Therefore, keeping their youthfull physique.

But then, its not hard to find a lady in a bar, hahahahaha I mean a cage. So there is very little energy costs there. Make the bloody males work for their joy. Hmmmmmm it appears they take joy in their lady friends. They want to work. let them.

REMEMBER, deep substrate is like a treadmill. Its a constant abiltity to burn energy. Dig, dig again, dig somemore. An exercise wheel is you will.

In otherwords(lots of otherwords) for males, its a balance between energy intake and the ability to use that energy.

Which sadly leads back to this. If there is nothing to do, digging, walking, climbing, including BREEDING, then there is nothing to expend energy on.

Wait, I have to ask, why do you feed in the first place?????? There is a circle somewhere in here.

Monitors are obligate energy conservers.

All you have to do is look at them. A sav is fat, and for good reason, its food in seasonal. A tree monitor is not fat, its long and slim. So it can "only" come from a habitat that has a somewhat consistant prey base.

What is funny to me is, both are kept alike and both fail from being kept the same way(averaged). Yet they are "THE" extremes. hahahahahahahaha Sorry again I rant. Cheers

Thank you, FR. I have been to bed on this and thought on it - it all makes total sense. He's not obesely overweight so I'm going to let him have just a little fast then feed him with no particular schedule. Give him yet more soil and shift his cage decor about and collapse any burrows he may have made in the meantime - and let him work and expend his energy. I wish I could have a female for him but don't think 2 would do good in an 8x4x4 plus from all the things I've read not many people seem to know how to care for them (the babies if there were any) properly - I may have had him for 2 years but I am still learning and probably always will be.

> > > "Scientifically, that makes you an expert,(hahahahahahahahahaha joke, humor, and bad attitude)"

Hahaha!!! I figured you'd get a kick out of that. You should see all the pretty colors in my data chart. The data ain't worth a hoot but the chart's all purdy.

Albigs are pretty much the same as savs in the fat, fasting, metabolism sense, right? Any others?

Thanks!
HH
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American