Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I did not read that until today. So I want to add to that and bring it up to the top.

So you are saying, All zoos are good or reputable(as you say)?

Also, However right or wrong you think Jobi's experiences are, they are his to say, that is what a forum is for. He and others(me) are entitled to our opinions. Of course you can debate how valid they are.

It does bother me that you, as a zoo person, think you have to defend all zoos, as so many zoo folks do. When zoos are just like us. Some are good, some are great and some are peawater poor. And all that is, temporary and often a case of timing. AND, its often about point of view. A zoo may be considered good, if its successful in an area that the ONE PERSON, has an interest. So I would think, your approach would be to ask, what kind of zoo did his experience come from. And in what area as well as whats your point of view. Considering, there are, Good ones, bad ones, etc.

You see, its always about point of view. To make it personal. I as a private keeper, I produce more captive breedings a year then all the zoos put together. Not bragging, just something to compare too. Now more to the point, I have no employees, and no funding. If you take your lone zoo or even the texas zoos. Then compare all those employees, all those man hours, and available resources(equipment etc) well, I "have" to think zoos SUCK(and entitled personal opinion, based on comparison).

I have to ask, don't you care about the animals? I mean, you hire keepers to care for them on a daily basis. Each and every day of the year, there is paid help. And you have guidence. You have volunteers, you have paid keepers, lead keepers, head keepers, assist. curators, and curators, at each and every zoo.

So you have workers, and those that tell the workers what to do, and those that tell them what to do and you have those that go to meetings, because they know whats suppose to be done. Yet, you cannot seem to put one foot in front of the other(by comparison). In the area of varanids, you folks are followers not leaders(which you have wrongly lead us, the public, to believe). With that in mind, why shouldn't we have an attitude?

As an example. we have talked to you, then you respond with many other zoos experiences, then take it personal. odd.

I know, I know, your going to say, all this and that about what your suppose to be doing and all the rules and restrictions, etc. But sir, that is the very point. Zoos have lost the ability to be efficient. You've lost site of your actual task. You have lost site of your goals. Your a beauracy(sp) feeding upon itself. And you know that. And thats each individual zoo, and its led by another, AZA.

Sir, does handcuffed have any meaning to you? And you were wondering why the good ones leave.

No offense but you and your staff, spend approx. 85% of your work effort dealing with eachother. Another 10% dealing with other organizations, which leaves very little time to do anything but feed and a change of water. I am actually amazed you get anything done, to be truthful.

To make it even worse, If each person has the ability of 100% applied effort, the first 60% is the most creative and efficient, then it wanes quickly to an effort of, lets just get it done. That sixty percent is often lost on you dealing with your own rules and eachother. Whatever is left, the poor effort(not so efficent) is whats left for the animals.

So yes, I am amazed that you folks get anything done. Also you understand, my feelings are not against individual people. Not at all, its against the system. It has lost the ability to take advantage of its very best resource, Exceptional passionate people. Who will work until their hearts explode. To me, that is so very sad.

Its kinda like the reptiles. Instead of letting those do what they are good at doing, there are parasites at each and every level sucking the energy out of them. As experienced keepers, We know how to fix the reptiles, kill off the parasites. And/Or support the individual reptiles to a point they can kill off the parasites themselves. My feeling is, you know this, but have no ability to kill of the parasites that stop the progress of zoos and keepers.

Yes, yes, I know, You will say thats partly true, and yes it is, only a major part true. I admit, there are temporary lapses where a superior individual can apply his talents for a short period of time. But the system will take care of that(history as shown).

So forgive us if we, Jobi and I, we often have a dim view of zoos in general. But if you compare your success to ours, dude, you really really really suck. Remember, we are talking about the area of this forum, varanids. Not panda bears. That would be on another forum. Truthfully and factually, zoos are very very poor. Considering your resources and your abilities and YOUR NUMBERS.

Remember, this is a person to person, conversation. Its Jobis abilities and my abilities and our results weighted against thousands of individuals working at zoos and with the support of academics, around the world. hmmmmmmmm it truely sounds unfair doesn't it. An army verses two, yet, the score is overwelmingly lopsided in our favor. If it were me, I would look into what stops you, and not challange us or our attitudes.

If you(zoos) were a real entity, you would hire headhunters to acquire you some real workers(herpers), instead of hiring those that only do what their told. Thats what the old dallas did. Then isolate and protect them from the system. Which will allow success for the animals. Cheers

I would have to agree. In the 1990's in a 5 year period I produced more Cuban Crocodiles[ C. rhombifer] than any zoo in the world[excluding Havana]. In fact I produced more than all of them collectivelly since they began to keep records. And thats just one example. One year I bred 9 species of just crocs!! I did this without funding of any kind.TC

Hello Tom though we have never spoken iv known you for more then 25 years already.
Like you I am first and foremost a private keeper, I am the Canadian who produced more crocodilian and cobra species then any zoos or private that I know about, sadly it was a reptile zoo that iv helped conceive that has legally stopped me from keeping then by voting for a new legislation on the ban of crocodilian and venomous in Quebec, probably why I keep a low profile with any CITES animal ever sins.
I wanted to offer my greetings and say it’s a pleasure to read you on this forum.
Cheers!

Frank I don’t believe any zoo would want passionate staff, like you said they prefer having YES MAN kind of peoples.
Several years ago I took care of my friends entire snake collection (largest in Canada) I only helped him 6-7 months, but still that year he got record clutches and offspring’s. You know I am not bragging but simply stating a fact, we both know how dedication pays off, zoos or large scale breeders often don’t have the time to commit, watch and feel the animals they are keeping. I have never kept more animals then I could care for properly, the results have been most rewarding for me, theirs no way zoos could deal with such success with the politics then have at present.

Hey Jobi,

Those arent the crocs from the exotarium, who Hervé bred??

Simon

NO they arent!!!!

n/p

" Several years ago I took care of my friends entire snake collection (largest in Canada) I only helped him 6-7 months, but still that year he got record clutches and offspring’s. " Jobi

Are you talking about Mike Barron ?

Ernie Eison
westwoodreptiles.com

No I am talking about a good friend of mine, not Barron.

Sorry Jobi I gotta disagree, The herp curators I know would disagree too. Ooops I forgot to say YES your right!

Ok but all the zoos that I know enforce the same policies, they don’t want employees to keep reptiles. How many real herpers do you know who are willing to sacrifice there hobby in favour of a job?

Isn’t this bureaucracy a hidden dictatorship centered on gate numbers?

You’re the person to answer this.

I don't know any zoos personally who don't want the staff to work with herps...All be it in many cases herp dept appear to be after thoughts, although no always.

As for a hidden dictator, I would say no, most people know you have to bring people in the door to make money so you can keep the doors open.

" Ok but all the zoos that I know enforce the same policies, they don’t want employees to keep reptiles. How many real herpers do you know who are willing to sacrifice there hobby in favour of a job? " Jobi

Reponse

don't know any zoos personally who don't want the staff to work with herps.. RWH

The AZA is against all private ownership. So are you saying that they feel it's ok for their employees to maintain private collections ? The thing is the AZA and all the Zoos involved are nothing more then private collections but are are in favor of anti private ownership legislation but in the same breath want to be exempt from it.

Ernie Eison
westwoodreptiles.com

Please find the AZA bylaw statement that the AZA is against any private animal ownership. I just have not seen it first hand...

in general the AZA does not support private ownership of exotics. what does the AZA mainly care @? mammals, what type of mammals? lions, tigers, bears, oh my...so

And just because you are under the umbrella of the AZA does not mean you agree with all their policies. In general the AZA is an accrediation org not an enforcement org. So many different zoos take different slants on AZA policy. Not to mention, a number of facilities are looking at other zoo membership organizations such as WAZA and some other one that started in florida, as they are not happy with AZA.

AZA is constantly attempting to keep all exotic animals out of private hands. Its kind of their policy.

Also having attended several Ethics meetings. It was sad to hear the distrust all levels of zoo personal had towards the public. Or at least what they voiced.

I think the Texas zoos were the most liberal, hence why I like them the best and always considered them to be amoung the best reptile zoos. Most of my zoo connections were with personal who either worked at these zoos, or did in the past.

Please understand, I have often used Dallas zoo as a competitor, because they were so good amoung the zoos and sadly one of the few worth competition.

Unfortunately with varanids, I have lost competition. But not respect. So keep that in mind.

Recently Tom C. hit the nail on the head, and hit it smartly. The problem with you and your efforts are simple and easy to fix. You seem to treat monitors like colubrids or some other species. You seem to treat them as to academics call them. You seem to miss the entire boat as to what they are.

Without going back, let me try to say what Tom did, until you learn that varanids are, "highly complex social reptiles" you will forever wallow in intermitten failure. When treated for what they are, they reproduce like frogs or insects(explosive) They will throw eggs at you in a way that you cannot fathom. All of them, from tree monitors to caudos to KD's.

That you seem to look at any species thats had success, If FR did it, its an easy species is not naive, but stupid. I have successfully bred varanids from africa, indo-Pacific, Australia. From tree dwellers, to extreme desert types, to aquatic types. And all the same. I treat them as complex social animals. Yet academics out of extreme ignorace call them solitary.

To me, its totally funny, an extreme solitary genius/species that functions long term and throught many generations in a highly successful way. Hmmmmmmmm how funny. I think your problems are from prejudice, you believe monitors are what you read, not what they are. That is sad for a liberal zoo employee.

Its actually as plain as day. Monitors have special abilities, keen eye sight, super snakelike sense of smell, and strong legs. and a body that can still enter the underworld(cracks, crevices, holes). Not only that, but are expert in making those holes, Hmmmmmmmmmmm They've got all the gifts of the reptile world. And yet you think they are limited to the same as simple reptiles. Not very sensible if you ask me.

Monitors do live in dense colonies(hubs, as I call them) much like many normal reptiles. I had no problem finding them. But science, sits in pubs and wonders why they cannot find them. But its in science. One can trap study done north of Alice, can trapped 118 brevicada in a week(aprox on both) hmmmmmmm how did that happen for a seemingly rare varanid. I also found a population of brevis or a close relative(the same but larger) where there were so many we sat and laughted our bums off. There were literally herds of them crossing the road. We sat on the land cruizer and watched them crossing in both directions, while being smashed by on coming cars. Just one example of many many.

I used that example because its actually a rare one. Most hubs I had to exercise to find. I worked at it. I am afraid, my folks do not understand what work is.

Now, about education. Lets use another example close to your heart, Greys monitors. In the early days of Daniels field work. I had lots of conversations with him and offered to help. But sadly he did what you all do. You do stuff the hard way.

Daniel knows zip about wild varanids. Nothing against Daniel, hes from a place sans reptiles, no base education. He wrote a book by gathering information. Some good, some bad, some totally wrong. And mixed it all together as if they were of equal value. Which as any cook will tell you, that indeeds ruins the cake.

I suggested to Daniel, try learning about monitors. Daniel has no touch with captives at all and no place to do that if he did. So he must learn in the field, a very hard and time consuming thing to do. I suggested, learn from a species or two, which are easy to see and a bit more bold, then say, Greys which are extremely wary and shy and have the advantage of trees and foliage to stay hidden. Once you learn the basic steps monitors take, THEY ALL TAKE THE SAME BASIC STEPS. You can then look for those steps with a hidden species. You have something to base your rare minimum observations on. So Daniel will spent the rest of his life not seeing the trees from the forest. So Daniel compares his rare limited observations to literature with as we all know is very very weak and limited. He has no base to work from.

Sirs, GET A BASE. LEARN FROM SOMETHING EASY TO LEARN FROM. Then apply it to what YOU THINK is not so easy. Guezz, this really has nothing to do with monitors, or academics, or education, its has to do with ignorance. YOU DO NOT LEARN ANYTHING FROM THE TOP DOWN.

As a comparison, YOU SHOULD HAVE LARGE CAGES full of V.gilleni, and aboreal small monitor. YOU have the ability to house them in large cages that will allow a complex social system. You should be expert at some aspect of varanids that are easy to do, before you attempt to flounder around for years and years with a complex social species that requires lots of space in order to include aspects of its complex system.

It comes to this, look at a big picture(many meanings here) Then take a few pixels and look at them. What do you see? Or take the whole or at least half the picture and look at it, what do you see? Dude, its not about monitors, its about common sense.

You need to learn the whole picture before you look at pieces. Once you see the big picture, the little pieces have more meaning.

So Daniel is sitting staring at trees and you are doing the same. Use common sense, take a intro class and work with something workable, BEFORE you attempt to work or something you do not understand.

A colony of ackies or brevis or kings, use a few acres, oh maybe three. A species of hundreds of times the mass will use what????????????????? A simple math problem. Begining algebra hey?

In reality, its not directly related. But close, a colony of large monitors will use a couple miles squared. If you fill that with trees, you are not going to see much without already knowing whats going on.

Lets look at it another way, you can house 5, 10, 15, larger adult monitors, or 100, 200, 300 small monitors. Which will you learn from the fastest?

IF you ask Daniel what I built here, he should tell you, a machine that produces numbers. All I do is shovel in the coal and the machine goes. I have to learn or this train will stop. But as long as I shovel in coal, the train keeps going. My train produces data about monitors. Its not about me, its about the machine. Build the machine.

So I sit here(successfully) and watch you guys bend over and run your heads into walls and then when the pain subsides, wonder why your having problems. Why does it take so long, you wonder? FR does not seem to have these problems. He doesn't. But then he learned from something easy to learn from. Cheers and sorry for the mourning rant. While this example is not exactly on this thread, its exactly what these threads circle around.

Geez, look away for a minute and look what I started. In my earlier days I would probably initially be pissed and spout-off some smart ass remarks but I am old or tired now...

My comment was based solely on Jobi expression of some bad and or illegal activities he witnessed and commented on...

I have not now or ever said I speak for the entire field, as that would be stupid and honestly impossible. But I will say that with all the bashing that goes on, allot of folks (not saying you FR) like to talk trash but apparently don't honestly know the extent of what different inst are actually doing. That being in the CONTEXT of the conversation of conservation (the subject of the previous post I commented on).

As for comparing your results in varanid reproduction to the zoo field, your right, it SUCKS overall and that is why I am here and on various forums talking with you and others to try to get my own S--T together. Not for everyone else, that is their responsibility.

As for head hunting, well that is sort of up to individual curators/managers, etc...the same way it was at Dallas years ago and still is.

Of what zoos do, is very enlightening.

In my post, I mentions a little about chain of command. But I did not mention that many zoos are union, and all but the keepers are not allowed to touch a reptile. Its not in their job discription.

Also you cannot fire union keepers for lack of reptile ability.

As its these and many more things that cause zoos to not be very effective. Or at least as much as they absolutely could be.

For instance in the relm of conservation. Zoos produce low controlled numbers. The problem with that is, its not natural, reptiles are explosive breeders, zoos should manage them in the way they manage themselves in nature, Explosively. Thats how they managed to exsist.

Yet, in some odd way, management programs do not allow them to produce in normal quanities. You(those in charge) actively hinder the gene pool. Nature selects from a massive number. Hows that work with low numbers?

Anyway, just more things to discuss. Cheers.

As for union zoo's, I have known a few people at such places. I'll just say I cann't imagine working at a union facility - talking about being hog-tied.

At 17 while I was hatching dozen cobra species, Trouper Walsh was figuring how to keep condros alive and Auffenberg trying to get a grip on his bengalensis husbandry, local zoo was holding a press conference about the million dollar new reptile house, the highlight then was the Colombian boa constrictor litter, the fruit of all this high teck institution.
Incidentally I was at Dorval air port when the wild gravid female arrived, not to mention the only positive thing out of 80 exhibits.

Why such a fuss if not gate numbers?
Of course they knew all about me and a few herper’s doing a good job with our captives, surly the birth of a boa litter was nothing to brag about even in those days, but such is life I guess.

Anyway I don’t care about them and surly I am not head hunting, facts are all I need to show the not so glorious side of them.

To this day nothing has improved at that place, animals are still imported and still die. It’s not about them in particular or any other lucrative institution, this is not the reason why I voice my opinion.

I voice for all to know that my rights to keep the animals I love is threatened by gate numbers and animal control agencies, yes my freedom stops where bureaucrats decide it should stop.
As a keeper the only right I have is to voice my opinion, and even then theirs a timeline.

So hey my apologies if a knock a few heads in the process.
oh by the way every word iv said on this thread is in context, not what you want to hear but nonetheless in context.

my ugly mug at 17
I love those old photos, in fact I love history, while I was posing for this shot, I belive TC was posing too! but thats an other issue and personal to him, hahaha

such is life!

I never said your comments were not true for your exp but not in my opinion representative of a number of good zoo's and folks I know working at zoo's.

Your priviliged to choose the good zoo folks, yet as private keepers, we are stuck with the bad ones. No one ever said there was only one type.

Like here, the squeaky wheel is what gets heard. So in the news, we see zoo official after zoo official hacking of some stupid jeck that let his burn eat his, pick one, goat, dog, kid, etc.

And you know as well as I, that OFFICIAL zoo protocal does not let excess animals into private hands. PERIOD. Which in fact is the center of the discussion "conservation" Zoos do not have the power to house animals in sufficent numbers to actually perform conservation. They only have the power to acquire and house a gene holder. And zoos refuse to use their biggist resource, the public. The public will have to be the base or you will fail. As you are powerless to perform.

As you know as a public educator(something you boast of) you teach people throught envolvement, not throught exclusion. A common teaching tool, to envolve. Sadly zoos keep that gun in their holster, WHY?

So you exclude the public(private keepers) and whine and cry that we are different then you.

That practice came back to bite zoos square on the bum. Now the private sector is running circles around zoos in the actual understanding of reptile reproductive biology. As you say, the good ones left and became the private sector. If zoos were progressive and up to date, THEY WOULD HAVE STAYED.

Any bets you will leave soon too?????????? As you appear progressive. You will soon tire of lack of progress. Cheers

And you know as well as I, that OFFICIAL zoo protocal does not let excess animals into private hands. PERIOD. Which in fact is the center of the discussion "conservation" Zoos do not have the power to house animals in sufficent numbers to actually perform conservation. They only have the power to acquire and house a gene holder. And zoos refuse to use their biggist resource, the public. The public will have to be the base or you will fail. As you are powerless to perform.

- THAT IS MOSTLY TRUE, ALL BE IT, SURPLUSING HERPS IS USUALLY AN INST. CHOICE (BE IT THE DIRECTOR OR CURATOR, WHOMEVER)NOT AN AZA RULE. I HAVE ACTUALLY LOOKED THAT ONE UP...NO RULE SAYS THEY CANNOT BE SURPLUSED.

- AND AS FAR AS PROGRAMS LIKE SSP'S THAT DO EXCLUDE MOST PRIVATES I KNOW A TON OF FOLKS WHO THINK THIS WAS A CRAZY MOVE...I TOO AGREE, BAD MOVE AND LIKELY TO CHANGE ONCE IT BECOMES PAINFULLY OBVIOUS TO SOME STUBORN FOLKS THAT IT JUST DOESN'T WORK.

That practice came back to bite zoos square on the bum. Now the private sector is running circles around zoos in the actual understanding of reptile reproductive biology. As you say, the good ones left and became the private sector. If zoos were progressive and up to date, THEY WOULD HAVE STAYED.

Any bets you will leave soon too?????????? As you appear progressive. You will soon tire of lack of progress. Cheers

-I HOPE THAT IS NOT THE CASE. I HOPE TO STICK IT OUT AND HELP FROM WITHIN, MAYBE WAY TO OPTIMISTIC BUT LIKE I SAID @ CONSERVATION, THIS IS A BATTLE WORTH FIGHTING IN MY OPINION AS I THINK ZOOS DO HAVE SOME GREAT RESOURCES THAT COULD BE GALVANIZED TO DO GREAT WORK. AT THE VERY LEAST, I HOPE MY DEPT MAKES IT'S OWN SMALL CONTRIBUTION BE IT CONSERVATION, SIMPLE RESEARCH, HUSBANDRY, EDUCATION OR SIMPLY GETTING SOME YOUNG KID TO SO WOW AND APPRECIATE A SPITTING COBRA OR BLACK TREE MONITOR!

Good on ya Ruston. I haven't been here in a long time, but it appears to be the same. We both know that there are so many programs going that are helping (blue iguanas, our Mtn. yellow-legged project, Anegada to name a few); don't let a couple people get you off course. Things have changed drastically even since we started, and its getting much better. Enjoy the work and make a difference. Oh, and I better not let AZA know about my herp collection, lol.

The Animal Rights Movement has been taking their extreme philosophy that animals must be 'separated' 'Protected' is the new euphemism from people by LAW. They have been getting help from the American Zoo & Aquarium Association (AZA). No longer is the AZA strictly in the business of accrediting Zoos and Aquariums. The AZA is endorsing a coalition of Animal Rights Groups / Animal Protection Groups and AZA accredited Zoos to bring legislation to states prohibiting the private ownership of exotic animals or dangerous wild animals to use the new AR catch phrase .

AZA Zoos back these legislative proposals because when passed there can never be any new competition entering the state.

Without the AZA exemption all non-AZA institutions are driven out of business. An institution must already be established before they can apply for accreditation by the AZA. So it`s impossible for new institutions to start up because they can't get accreditation. AR groups gain legitimacy by being endorsed by AZA Zoos and AZA Zoos get a monopoly regarding who can work with exotic animals. Independent wildlife professionals, educators and breeders are destroyed. Ernie Eison

westwoodreptiles.com

without accreditation from AZA, its very very difficult to fund projects, displays, accquisition of animals, etc.

good to hear from you.

Interesting, While you are allowed to say whatever you want, It would have been interesting if you told Jeff that you were having fun and actually enlightening many about "an" actual zoo experience. And you learning while your at it. Which I believe you have and are. I know I have from your recent visits.

Instead of challanging the "same old stuff" statement. You simply say, hi. to bad. It really is not the same is it?

The reality is, its not the same old stuff, your attitude is not the same. You came and admitted you want to learn. Also that your success was not were you wanted it. Which was very refreshing. Thats why most come here. Now you are one of us. Instead of coming and only defending yourself/sans results.

The old days were loaded with zoo folks teaming up and defending themselves with very little in the way of results and lots in the way of attempts.

Which is clearly the same for both husbandry and conservation. Its not attempts that count, or failures for that matter, its successes that count. Key paragraph here.

While I admire all those who attempt to learn, educate and conserve. ITs still the successes that are important. Not the talking about or even what your attempting, the important part is completing what you start and accomplishing set goals. Which so far are very much missing.

You see, even on an individual level, the differences between a good keeper or a poor keeper, a good zoo or a poor zoo(program) is the successes, a good private breeder or a poor one, is the quality of your results, not that your simply attempting to do something. An example here is, a newbie with two ackies, then saying they are an monitor breeder. Or refering to their two monitors as a breeding pair, when in reality, they never produced offspring. Really, if done innocently, its only a case of naivity.

In my comparisons with Dallas zoo, I never "hated" the keepers, but questioned the successes(results) For instance, your zoo(not you, you were not there?) hatched a greys and it immediately died. They had a colony of Greys over 20 years(pers. comm. Winston Card) That resulted in that one failed hatchling. And nearly the same for Blacktrees. Again, nothing against the keepers. What I have always questioned was the publishing of information as successful successful information, when it resulted in a dead offspring. To me, that was wrong. That is what I questioned and that is what I used to achieve higher goals.

I wanted information about husbandry that resulted in generations of offspring, from a pair. And in a relatively short time. You know, the time it takes them normally in nature.

Not to beat this to death, your successes would amount to extinction. Both in captivity and in nature. Monitors produce explosively or they disappear. Again both in nature and in captivity. We knew that about nature, but its new information about captivity.

And yes, using your zoo, as what not to do, worked very well. As you "now" know or should know, all monitor species are explosive reproductively. So now you have a new goal to achieve.

You see, its not all about the exact details of husbandry, but understanding the goals and their abilities.

Which is why I rag on ISP programs and zoo stuff. Because they limit reproduction and that is not natural. If you or they can explain that to me, I would love it. How can limiting a species abilities and reproduction, help a endangered species?

You see, once you do that, you leave the relm of your mission(endangered species program) and enter weird human behavior areas. Maybe the same kind of thoughts that caused the problem to start with, but who knows.

What I do know is, If Greys monitors is your project, your goal is to maximise their breeding to their potential. Produce numbers that would be produced by their wild counterparts if they were unhindered by human destruction. And on supportive conditions(non drought and such years)

The reasons for that is very clear. Lets make it simple, TWO ADULTS, a pair, do not occupy one area. The reality is, two adults produce as much as they can so that two adults can remain in that area. Not necessarily the same adults. That would be minimum reproductive ability. The reality is, two adults in nature, produce as much as they can so that they can expand in range and support other species that feed on them. That is the reality. A normal day to day task is, to overpower depleted numbers with more numbers. And yes, its all about numbers. With that in mind, a reproductively limiting approach to conservation is very naive.

If we are still talking greys, their clutch sizes and numbers are about the same as other monitor species of their size. So I expect their survival rate to be the same, normally. Which means, Greys should be on par with all other species. Again a goal you should think about, if you haven't already.

Again, back to the start, Its results that would be of benefit, not attempts.

By the way, You know how JeffL likes to say how I chase all those experts off. I do giggle over that. Come on now, Is it me? or is it my results that chase them off. Yes, I boneheadedly shove results down their throats, but really, isn't that what this is all about? And is being a bonehead so bad? You see, it could not be me, if I attempted to smack them around, I would simply break my computer hmmmm or my hand. So yes, this running them off thing is very silly. It's just Jeff playing his silly games. I believe its more about jealousy, but hey, I could be wrong as I really do not even take the time to think about it. If they want to run, perfect. Thats a natural behavior too. I take this bad, how could you folks practice a perfectly human behavior?

This is how i define academics. Those without or not caring about results, TO BE ACADEMIC. I believe that is in the old dictionary. So yes, results has to chase off academics. another key paragraph.

Now for some fun, of those academics that later become successful, That still do not come back. Its more about, human behavior, they understand, if they come back, they will be on my side, and that scares them. So far, anyone and everyone who has had continued success with varanids, do pretty much the same thing. Of course, theres many ways to do the same thing differently. Cheers

Hi Jeff, what I find amusing is, conservation projects are long lived. Or at least that is their intent. To keep an animal in exsistance. In order to be successful, they have to work for the long period. In that, it would be very difficult to know if those projects are Going to be successful.

Why I say that is, we often hear about or I have been evolved in a few of these projects, but in the long run, actually not even that long, they are done and gone. So they actually did not work. The effort was wasted. When the resources were needed, the land was taken.

I commend you for working on them, but before you think its all good, wait 50 years like I have and look again.(hence the attitude)

It has occurred to me, you did not understand the concept of time.

In defense of, OH its still the same. Of course it is, what did you expect. Some are still keeping, breeding, learning new things, others are gone, new ones come and go. Yes, its the same. Most likely as it should be. Cheers