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I need some help with the Ga Kings. How do you tell if its a REAL Ga King? I have seen several kings that look like what others call Ga Kings, and I know for sure they are not. Do you just have to buy from reputable breeders, as in the case with Gray Bands? Please don't take this the wrong way. I know there was a recent post about Ga Kings, and I know he is up to par. I know someone who deals with personally, so don't take this the wrong way. I am just looking for an answer to my question. Thanks everyone. I have been taught alot since joining this site.
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SShane@
SSuperiorSSerpents
http://s63.photobucket.com/albums/h127/SSuperiorSSerpents/

There are several people that are reputable when it comes to GA kings.
And if you're looking for GA kings, I suggest going to one of them.
Not too many others have them anyway.
Identifying the GA locales isn't usually that difficult.
They tend to have more of an orange coloration, and usually the widest bands.

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Mike
KingPin Reptiles Inc.
www.kingpinreptiles.com
^ Updated 7/21

The Enge/Still line doesn't represent what you are likely to see in the wild in Georgia. Most kings down there aren't that orange or wide-banded. When I think "Georgia king", I think of an eastern that has a banded pattern (like a cal king) rather than a chain pattern, and the bands only being a little wider than what you'd expect from more northern kings.

I agree. The animals most people think of when they hear "South Georgia King" are the animals that come from the Enge/Still line. These have been bred for many generations now to accentuate the wide banded / orange traits. These aren't really representative of a "typical" wild king from that area. Animals from Georgia can very widely in appearance, even those found in close proximity to each other. The "banded" rather than chain pattern does seem to be common in that area, as well as North Florida. I guess what it all boils down to is to trust the breeder to accurately represent the animal. Just my two cents.

Todd

If it's the selectivly line bred snakes out of the Southernmost Central counties in GA that are the ones that you are interested in? There's several people with that bloodline out there, Will & Kevin being two of course. That's one reason I think it would be best to describe what you are looking for as a lineage such as "Will Still or Kevin Egne line" rather than GA Easterns. Easterns of almost every appearance within the ssp. are found in GA. From the most narrow banded black and white or yellow chained animals, to the wide peach orange, cream, or yellow banded animals from the south. The ones being produced today in the f3 and later generations don't reflect what you see in the wild in South GA most of the time anyway so "South GA Eastern" isn't a very accurate description....any more than the "goini" you see produced now after years and years of selective breeding look like the ones you find in the forest now. Sometimes you will see a nice heavily speckled oval blotched or striped animal....but not often....same goes for the South GA getula. Most getula you see in South GA will have 3-4 scale wide cream bands on a very dark brown background BUT some are almost identical to the nicest ones seen coming out of the Enge line today when you see these really exceptional ones they come from the counties that the original founders came from, it's a unique local. there's many other small populations of getula in GA that have a certain percentage of animals in them that exhibit unusual characteristics.. Some are very "sticticeps" looking with lots of speckling in between the bands, some have consistantly solid colored venters, some are mahogany brown...As you know most breeders always keep back the nicest animals, the standouts, with the most orange or widest banding to produce thier subsequent generations. (which, by the way is funny thing with "locale" animals....in one hand we want animals from a "wild" locality....then we strive to produce animals that don't look like the MAJORITY of the animals found there...strange huh??, just because an exceptional animal was found there doesn't mean that it's represenative of that locale) What we are seeing in the Enge line is a result of just that...not some devious attempt to slip in "goini" blood. Even if there was one breeding where a goini was used, there's been MANY other's that only "pure" Tift, Echols, and Berrien county snakes were used and the results are just as orange, can be just as abberant and are definantly just as beautiful. Another thing to think about is the fact that getula has been protected in GA since the late seventies. Your animals may have been descended from pre-ban GA snakes but.....can you prove it? If you call your animals GA locale, you'd better be able to prove thier legality if the powers that be ever ask that you do. The burden of proof will fall to you. Of course, just like Barrens pines and other once legally collectable locales, there were some animals being kept before the laws were enacted..but keep in mind that it's almost impossible to trace back animals that far these days, and by calling them GA locale instead of Wide Banded or Enge line Easterns you are asking for potential problems.

Good point on the legal issue. I think that's why we see so many WC "North Florida Easterns" for sale. I agree that breeding a "locale" animal for certain traits for several generations kind of takes the "locale" out of it. Technically, you can trace them back to a certain area, but they're not really representative of wild animals from that area anymore. Thaey're still awfully nice though. Just depends on what you want.

Todd

What we are seeing in the Enge line is a result of just that...not some "devious" attempt to slip in "goini" blood.

It was probably not meant to be "devious" at the time of breeding but now that they are popular there is some huge doubt because Enge did breed 50/50 goini x s. GA eastern and then back into SOUTH GA easterns. Who's to say the 1st gen looked like orange to red NARROW banding and after susequent backbreeding the w-i-d-e bands started appearing.
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"Yeah ya told me, and ya wrote it down too. But how the hell am I supposed to remember!"

Because wide bands were already in the population. Here's an example of a WC animal from that area from 13+/- years ago. You can clearly see that the appearance (superwide bands and orange coloration) was already a part of the makeup of that population of animals. Sorry for the quality of photograph. And thanks to MH for loaning it to me. I wish I would have photographed some of the REALLY crazy ones I found over the years, the one with the subocularis pattern, the one that was yellow with big black circles down the back (it looked like Will's animal "Frank" but with more of a dirty yellow color) So I guess I can't say without a doubt that Kevin's line developed wide bands from the pure WC lines but I can say without a doubt that I have found them in the same counties such as Tift and Lowndes that had bands this wide and wider. This particular snake was under a board with a female that had 1 scale wide bands and chaining. It was the best example of how variable they are down there. Unfortunantly that image lives only in my memory.

I understand what you are saying and i have seen that pic before.

My experience with Kevin was that he bred goini into the line and when asked he said "same difference". SO even that their are some wide banded easterns in s GA does not mean anyone can duplicate by producing a 1/4 or even a 1/16 goini to those animals and acheive the same look/result. I mean thats what Kevin was basically saying.. After all knowbody knows the difference , right?
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"Yeah ya told me, and ya wrote it down too. But how the hell am I supposed to remember!"

And I didn't mean to imply by "devious" that it was intentional thing to mislead anyone...
it's just that when an exceptional line of animals is produced there's always doubt out there as to whether it's a naturally occuring variant or a captive produced one using some other ssp. Same goes for the Blaze goini. I saw a WC solid orange, nearly patternless 4' goini in a collection 18 years ago (the same guy had two fully striped getula from a WC gravid female). Those weren't captive produced. All I am saying is that kings especially have a tendency to produce some very abberant and beautiful animals on occasion, some populations do it on a regular basis and these can be harnessed so to speak through line breeding. It isn't always done with intergrades or hybrids. (but you and I have talked about it before that some of the mutations certainly have fuzzy origins LOL) I keep locale stuff and hybrids...I love any snake that hits the right chords and I don't disparage ANYONE who keeps thier animals healthy and honestly represents them....but those who prefer thier animals "pure" shouldn't have to worry or wonder about whether superwide banded "pure" getula can be produced by using animals that are found in the wild...they can, and they do

It is something that needs to be looked at more closely that for sure. There is evidnce that Kevin did this 1/4 goini breeding to s GA locales.

Horridus, it's kinda like the BHB line anerythristic. You have double het normals from when Rick Trenny bred a BHB anery to a Lemke axanthic and the snakes came out normals (meaning the two traits are not allelic)correct? But what few people know is BHB also has another line of anerythristic that looks identical to the non-allelic trait. That trait IS allelic with the axanthic.

So you see, there is always more evidence that demands a verdict. Just because there are two snakes out there from the same person does not mean they are the same thing.
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"Yeah ya told me, and ya wrote it down too. But how the hell am I supposed to remember!"

Rainer is right. Brian had 1.1 axanthics from Lemke lines, then purchased the rest from me in '97. He said at the time he had fertility problems and that I was one of a couple of people in the U.S. to produce them in numbers that year. He bought all of them I had. Lloyd was also having problems producing them.

I think the other line of "anerythristics" came from either Gulf Coast Reptiles or Glades. They were trying to sell them to me for $50 ea......and I'm glad I didn't accept.

Brandon Osborne
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www.brandonosbornereptiles.com

I am missing how the axanthic thing fits into this? But it's not important, I guess unless you mean that you can get two animals that look the same, but don't have the same genetic make up from one breeder? If so, okay....don't buy Kevin's line, they have questionable origins..The whole point of my post is that some people think wide bands and orange/peach color into adulthood is achieved only by breeding "goini" into South GA locale Easterns. My experience with numbers of animals from that locale says otherwise. That photo shows a wild animal very similar to the adults produced by the Enge line. Fact still remains that animals just like the ones produced by his line are found in those counties in South GA. I found that one, along with maybe a dozen others that had bands that wide or wider. Including one that was as "blotched" as Will's exceptional male. I don't have any other photos so I can't "prove" I found them....But I think the one I do have photos of is pretty good evidence that the wide banded Easterns are alive and well in the wild down there. It's a unique locale. That's all....see you at the show bro.

Sweet animal man. I would have liked to see the thin banded one myself!! Those are my favorites, like this girl. Her first clutch just pipped last night!!!!

Jason

thats a sweet looking king jason is it from Ga.lines? ihave a richland couty.s.c. that looks almost identical to it.
,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

i beleive the Ga.getula are like the peaches just a lil fuzzy ive seen all types come outta Ga. so i wouldnt be quick to label ANY one type a Ga.type imho most of the wide aberrant orange banded ones seen in the hobby are or were originally crosses of somekind(i see floridana &or goini &or appalachicola,in the mix)and the look seen now is/was acheived through selective breeding and i wouldnt consider that look indicative to just Ga.locales, and being Ga.locales are off limits to us breeders theres know way to proove it but imho nothing beats a selectively bred getula anyway,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

And what do you see in the WC that Horridus posted above?? Same traits?? Must have been a spot where a Florida and a Goini were let go and found a eastern for a three way. LOL That is the only way that snake wound up in the wilds of Georgia, right???

I prefer the thin banded look myself but after seeing a small group of kings from the counties that Kevin claims his animals come from I don't see why there is such disbelief. Oh yeah because Rainer bought an animal one year and Kevin admitted it was a cross. Yet Kevin has always said that the Still line was not. Why would he admit to one but not the other??? If you have ever met Kevin you should have gotten the feeling he doesn't care about all this hype and would tell you the truth either way. He is the only one who knows the origins and he says they are pure and doesn't make anything extra by saying it so...

Jason

Why would he admit to one but not the other??? If you have ever met Kevin you should have gotten the feeling he doesn't care about all this hype and would tell you the truth either way. He is the only one who knows the origins and he says they are pure and doesn't make anything extra by saying it so...

I'll give you one good reason. He is asking 10x the amount than a few years ago. And you are right he doesn't care about the hype and what the origins are one way or the other.
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"Yeah ya told me, and ya wrote it down too. But how the hell am I supposed to remember!"

Dude he is getting more across the board like everyone else who does easterns. At one point it seemed no one cared and then Keith put up his site and the price jumped across the board. Albinos showed up about the same time or before if you want to credit them for the price jump but since most guys who are willing to pay more want a locality animal I have to think it is because of Keith's site, even if you don't want to believe it. The appreciation for the wide banded animals spawned off this site and the claim that they are from a known area got me in the field looking.

To bad for your stance I, like Bart, saw wide banded and orange banded animals in that area. I never saw one that had both orange and wide bands but I have only seen 1 for every 100 Bart has in the wild. What I don't get is why you would argue against what Bart has to say when you know he has you on field experience in Georgia and you know him personally so you know what kind of snake freak the guy is. But hey we all know you like to argue anything.

I get that you called out Kevin on one clutch about the same time as Will got his founder stock from Kevin but Kevin produces a bunch of clutches each year and from what I remember you were talking about a clutch the year before Will got his animals. And Kevin told you the truth when you asked him about your animal. But you think he lied about the clutch Will bought out of?? Or do you think Kevin has no idea if it was pure or not?? I really am serious, what is your thoughts on this in regards to Kevin?? Once they were sold to Will there isn't a question of crossing is there?? You always jump on and fight this line every time it comes up, so why other than hearsay???

Jason

well if you don't want to hear hersay then why do you keep asking questions and when I answer you call it heresy?

The snake I first bought from Kevin he told me it was a S. Georgia snake. He had them labled on his table for years as bumblee eastersns. They never sold well and naturally the price was real low so I took an interest in these before anyone else did. I bought a female and raised her up. A couple seasons later I called Kevin and asked if i could get a male. He said he'd have one at the expo. At the time, I did not know wide band easterns existed in the wild and I asked him why the male looks diffefrent from mine. He said it was a 50/50 goini x eastern and said "if you breed it to your eastern female you will get the same thing" (meaning the bright ornange bands as that what I was looking for). I aksed him if the female was the same thing and he relur=tantly said yes and shrugged ghis shoulders..

That was not my first experience with kevin over a particular snake were the story changed with him over the course of two years. It is evident his stories change every couple years. Probably because he is not so "hyped" as you put it. The second time it was Edisto island kings. I bought a trio from him at the NC show. I had called him to prearrange payment and pickup. Two years later I heard he never sold pure edisto islands back then and what i have could not be edisto islands, I callled him on the phone and asked him . He said he only had 50/50 edistos and thats probably what I he sold me. I remeinded him he said they were 100% Pure Edisto islnads and i was the only one getting any that year through a breeding loan with his friend at the resource site. . After I brought this up he choked and said "OH!" "well, I guess you must have the real ones". "I forgot about that".

So wait a minute and back up. Just before that he said he never produced pure 100% edistos. So which story do you beleive of his is true?

Personally it really does not matter to me that much. I just bought the high red bandsded "bumblbees as an inpulse buy the first year. Then I wanted a mate. I never gave much thought to what Kevin said of did to acheive these animals. And like you said the advent of Keith Hillsons eatern king site brought something to light that before nobody cared about.LOCALITY EASTERN KINGS. Com'n, so what if Kevin fudged a bit. He is still a nice guy. It is no big deal to me nor should it be to anyone else. He has been working with thse snakes for so long they might as well be pure being they came from a project of crossbreeding over a long period of time. When people took an interest in eastern kings and you have eastern with 1/16 goini blood in them and you know they look alomost identical to some of the wide banded s GA animals why not continue to improve the line by back breeding the ones that will gurantee good results. With a little amount of cheating it is comparable to athletes on vit S. Some people call it cheating swhile others who are educated say it is natural substances that can be found in the body and therefore is nothing more any health suplementation. Iff the tecnology is there why not improve with all the means we have avaliable. Maybe if people were not so scared of hybrids and come out of the closet those eastern kings would be just as valuable if honestly represneted.

Personally I don't give a hoot what they are. I just enjoy all the anti hybrid posts and browbeating agendas, putting down hybrids when their cornerstone project is crossed animal itself. For all the spouting about the evils of hybrids and negativty of the herp community, it's a simple case of "the lady protesteth too much" and goes to show the people who talk so badly about hybrid snakes the most are the ones not to be trusted and the people I (we) should all fear for the most. .
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"Yeah ya told me, and ya wrote it down too. But how the hell am I supposed to remember!"

Personally I don't give a hoot what they are. I just enjoy all the anti hybrid posts and browbeating agendas, putting down hybrids when their cornerstone project is crossed animal itself. For all the spouting about the evils of hybrids and negativty of the herp community, it's a simple case of "the lady protesteth too much" and goes to show the people who talk so badly about hybrid snakes the most are the ones not to be trusted and the people I (we) should all fear for the most. .

LOL sometimes you write too much Rainer. This last paragraph has you admitting to bad mouthing the line because of someone who you refer to as the lady is anti hybrid. Gee who has these and doesn't like hybrids??? Who could it be that has so much to say about how polluted the Floridana pool is with other subs to get the morphs?? Who was the guy that used to post here until he got banned for bickering with you?? HAHAHA

As for the rest of your story I had only heard half that before but you are the only person I have ever heard question Kevin's integrity. I am not going to make it this year to Daytona so I can't ask Kevin directly myself and I doubt I will even think to next year but maybe someone should. Maybe by this time next year you can get Bart to take you out to a few tin spots and have a look around, or at least show you pictures. Still from what I have seen in the wild it sure seems that Kevin picked a couple of the best counties to say his animals come from. If he claimed any other counties I might be less apt to believe him.

Jason

howdy jason the w/c that horridus posted also looks to me to have floridana &or appalachicola influence. thats what i see. by no means a direct cross just influences of "other"ssp. i gotta say this, you sayin a goini,fla.,eastern had a three way just shows your intelect and is not what i was saying at all. showing influence of one or more ssp. and having 3ways between 3 ssp. is entirely two differant things, you need to look into that i suppose.
selective breeding is what attained both looks one occurred naturally and one occured thru captive breedings...simple but labeling these as pure lgg or locale specific lgg is/was done for one thing, that mighty dollar plain&simple. and ftr i love them!as i do ALL getula but imho they are not representive of all Ga. getula as some claim they are and then there is the "purity" issue which really is the most laughable aspect of this whole mess purity among a SUBSPECIES a ssp from a natural intergradation zone at that it just cracks me up. im certain of one thing they are PURE getula and whatever other ssp. are in the line will never be known and really imho doesnt matter anyway ,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Thomas as always with this you are talking about 2 different things at once. Or more than that really. You are on both sides of the fence and on top of it, and for that matter I think you would be standing at the intersection of four fence lines. For one you claim to not believe in subs and then name subs as influencing the look of the animal in question. I know what you are trying to say, that the lineage is shared between all the subs you mentioned historically and these animals are showing the historical influence of them. But then you sorta say that it is maybe man made. You never really say what you think and maybe that is the best stance to take since neither you nor I really know and neither does anyone other than Kevin. But for the sake of argument lets get your view out there in the open. Is this a man made animal or the result of historical traits being brought out through selective breeding??

If all you are ever saying is that these animals are exhibiting historic traits I am with you. But it always seems that you are not saying that, so put it out there nice and clear.

LOL I have been answering to many people while I typed this and now I don't know or care what the rest of my point was so lets just start here.

Jason

ROFLMAO OK,OK I GET IT, let me try this again ive copied your post and will "try"(bear w/me) to make my opinion more clear for ya.

Thomas as always with this you are talking about 2 different things at once. Or more than that really. You are on both sides of the fence and on top of it, and for that matter I think you would be standing at the intersection of four fence lines.

>>now thats funnyi dont care who you are lmao!!!

For one you claim to not believe in subs and then name subs as influencing the look of the animal in question.

>> yes i am a lumper to an extent and believe in FORMS as opposed to subspecies, i believe goini IS lgg just like sticticeps is, i believe floridana is valid, i believe appalachicola are lgg and lgf nat.intergrades and dont deserve ssp. status. i named these other subs to TRY to get my point across as i know many feel goini and others are all valid ssp. sadly it seems it didnt work.

I know what you are trying to say, that the lineage is shared between all the subs you mentioned historically and these animals are showing the historical influence of them.

>>>yes,yes, and yes

But then you sorta say that it is maybe man made.

>>>i beleive many that are seen/represented today in the hobby today as pure Ga.locale lgg have been crossed maybe im wrong.

You never really say what you think and maybe that is the best stance to take since neither you nor I really know and neither does anyone other than Kevin. But for the sake of argument lets get your view out there in the open. Is this a man made animal or the result of historical traits being brought out through selective breeding??

>>>lmao now im lost let me say it this way kevins animals IMHO ARE manmade(thats what selective breeding is be it locale or otherwise???) WITH historical traits of goini,appalach,floridana being brought out through selective breeding.the implication that these are PURE locale lgg is saying if you collect from that locale All animals in or from that locale will look like that even F1's which is simply NOT the case kevin and others have put years into refining the look of those animals.

If all you are ever saying is that these animals are exhibiting historic traits I am with you. But it always seems that you are not saying that, so put it out there nice and clear.

>>>im sorry hope this post makes it nice and clear for you.

LOL I have been answering to many people while I typed this and now I don't know or care what the rest of my point was so lets just start here.

Jason

>>>like i said before i love the wide abberant orange Ga. getula i just dont feel they represent all Ga.lgg or even TRUE lgg as described taxa wise for that matter. now PURE sure they are pure... pure getula as far as ive seen.
i see you posted that lgg again is that a Ga. locale lgg??,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

You never really say what you think and maybe that is the best stance to take since neither you nor I really know and neither does anyone other than Kevin. But for the sake of argument lets get your view out there in the open. Is this a man made animal or the result of historical traits being brought out through selective breeding??

Well this is the heart of it. I know that selective breeding is essentially "making" a snake what you want and I also agree with you that the Enge/Still line are not representative of even a small portion of the Lgg in even the just counties(Tift/Echols) that the founder stock came from. They are however, if you are to believe what the seller says, the result of breeding animals from a 2 county area in a line bred fashion with the goal being the wide bands and the orange color. So yeah you can say they are "man made" but in this conversation I am using that term to describe a cross done in captivity not a selective breeding situation.

>>>i beleive many that are seen/represented today in the hobby today as pure Ga.locale lgg have been crossed maybe im wrong.

Now here I am not sure what you are inferring. This line that we are talking about?? Others like goini that you mention previously in the post?? The morphs??

So to narrow down the question that i was asking.

Do you believe the Enge animals sold to Still were represented accurately and are only from blood lines originating in the Tift/ Echols area??

And to answer your question yes those are a pair of Cook Co Georgia animals that I picked out of a clutch I purchased from a breeder that assured me the kings were from a pair of animals he collected himself. I kept the thinnest banded animal (female in cage) and the widest banded animal (male with blue backdrop who was in shed in that pic) and sold off the rest unfortunately. I then got a female back from a customer 6 months later. So I have a 1.2 group and both females gave me eggs this year but I had the first clutch to wet early on and I lost all the eggs and the second clutch from the pair in the pics started hatching tonight. They are pretty good "locality" animals The female is my favorite and the babies that have come out so far are thin banded with almost no orange at all, one has a white belly with no pattern for the front 2/3rds. So I am in a good mood.

By the way Cook Co is right near the Echols/ Tift area hahahaha

Jason

>>>i beleive many that are seen/represented today in the hobby today as pure Ga.locale lgg have been crossed maybe im wrong.

Disregard this statement from me. I was pretty sure I read something else here from the looks of it. I don't know why I added on the extra lines that you are clearly not talking about. But I guess I am still not sure if you are hinting that you believe the Enge line to be crosses or just other nameless lines??

It is almost 2am right now too.

J

Do you believe the Enge animals sold to Still were represented accurately and are only from blood lines originating in the Tift/ Echols area??...

i do beleive kevin crossed his line. then backbred to acheive the wide aberrant orange kings seen in his and wills animals today. the counties in question tift&echols are always broughtup and it is pointless to say and keep saying these or ANY counties will produce animals representive to theirs,snakes dont go by counties we do. then terms are also thrown out there like PURE, LOCALE SPECIFIC,LINEBRED PURE LGG, ETC. its marketing and sales thru deception as far as im concerned, they are nice and beautiful kings i love their looks but imho they are not pure linebred locale specific lgg as some claim and ANYONE who knows or has worked w/lots of lgg from throughout their range knows that.
so how did you aquire your Ga. easterns legally? can you sell the offspring? if so please contact me it would sure be nice to breed some of those with some of my s.carolinas oneday hell it would be nice if Ga. would come off the highhorse and allow limited collecting(bag limits)for breeders/collectors wanting Ga. animals ahhhwell in a perfect world maybe,,,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

I didn't say that the animals stayed within the county lines, the populations are in those areas...areas in counties like Tift, Echols, Lowndes, and others....I've found a LOT of getula. MOST of these were from Southern GA and NONE of the wide banded or peach banded adults were found anywhere in the state but in THAT area where those counties are. If you head toward ANF like I have done many, many, times, you see more typical kings for a long way before you start seeing the goini x eastern intergrades....and they don't look like these!! They have a different look, the animals from Bloxham Cutoff are an excellent example of Eastern Kings with "goini" influence....and they don't look like the South Central GA animals. But I don't want to argue the point any longer, as much as I enjoy a good argument I am in too good a mood knowing I am headed down there this weekend for Daytona and might find another of the knockout wide banded getula from South Central GA on my way.

Oh and just so you know, there's a bill in committee now that will legalize the possession of Kingsnakes, Cornsnakes, and Garter Snakes in the state of Georgia. Will it come to pass...probably not, we're too lazy and complacent in this state to push it.

ive copied your post to respond to...

I didn't say that the animals stayed within the county lines, the populations are in those areas...areas in counties like Tift, Echols, Lowndes, and others....I've found a LOT of getula. MOST of these were from Southern GA and NONE of the wide banded or peach banded adults were found anywhere in the state but in THAT area where those counties are.

>>>doesnt mean they are not there wide banded peach adults can/have been found in fla.,s.c.,& n.c. and im sure many areas of Ga. may be prominent in south ga. but not exclusive

If you head toward ANF like I have done many, many, times, you see more typical kings for a long way before you start seeing the goini x eastern intergrades....and they don't look like these!! They have a different look, the animals from Bloxham Cutoff are an excellent example of Eastern Kings with "goini" influence....and they don't look like the South Central GA animals.

>>>please show me a locale wild easternXgoini cross or an eastern with "goini" influence. imho goini IS an lgg form nothing more or less, and please dont cite kk&means papers i dont buy into it. ancestorial form of lgg imho is all it is just like sticticeps is. these s.ga.pops in my opinion have floridana and or appalch flaXlgg,some say goini?who knows? kevin did tell rainer he crossed goini into his line. but these traits are showing up when line bred. it stands to reason certain small wild pops essentailly line breed themselves thus creating a look for that locale and then there is the random aberrancy that produces itself in ANY/ALL getula across the board,lots of variables and this is where PURITY rears its ugly head a term inapropriately used and sadly used just to market/sell to the uneducated, purity in a subspeciesi love it darn splitters

But I don't want to argue the point any longer, as much as I enjoy a good argument I am in too good a mood knowing I am headed down there this weekend for Daytona and might find another of the knockout wide banded getula from South Central GA on my way.

>>>congrats i dont want to argue either just stating MY view not dissing anyone elses, just stating mine. have fun in daytona i will be there in 2008 its long overdue, and good luck on a knockout wide banded getula on your way there or back

Oh and just so you know, there's a bill in committee now that will legalize the possession of Kingsnakes, Cornsnakes, and Garter Snakes in the state of Georgia. Will it come to pass...probably not, we're too lazy and complacent in this state to push it.

>>>man get your herp societies&clubs going and push that bill, shoot we just got shotdown in texas unfortunately with not one but 2 bills now laws against us freeky snake people, its a sad time
,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

>>>please show me a locale wild easternXgoini cross or an eastern with "goini" influence. imho goini IS an lgg form nothing more or less

When I get back I'll shoot some photos of what I call a goini x eastern intergrade, and we'll discuss what I think goini is. Whether you call it a ssp. or a variant, it's still unique to the area (show me a comprable animal elsewhere in the Eastern genus) and I'll throw out my ideas on how they came to exist (relict getula/floridana/holbrooki intergrade) then you will REALLY think i'm nuts. Can't agree with some of the K/M paper so you won't get any citations from me there Anyway, thanks for the good luck wish on the kings. I'll trade you a South GA trip for a NC (that's where you spend the majority of your time finding getula....right?) trip and we can show each other some good spots.

When I get back I'll shoot some photos of what I call a goini x eastern intergrade, and we'll discuss what I think goini is. Whether you call it a ssp. or a variant, it's still unique to the area (show me a comprable animal elsewhere in the Eastern genus) and I'll throw out my ideas on how they came to exist (relict getula/floridana/holbrooki intergrade) then you will REALLY think i'm nuts. Can't agree with some of the K/M paper so you won't get any citations from me there Anyway, thanks for the good luck wish on the kings. I'll trade you a South GA trip for a NC (that's where you spend the majority of your time finding getula....right?) trip and we can show each other some good spots.

sounds great except im in east texas(houston), so i cant help w/any spots in NC. im down w/relic intergrades and would love to here your views on the subject ,,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com