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Ok, bad news..... My snow female that seems to be triple clutching for me tested positive yesterday and I was told to treat her with Albon.

My question is this..... Should I treat her now or wait till after the eggs have been laid? I have never had to deal with an animal being gravid and needing treatment at the same time. I am willing to lose this clutch of eggs if need be. I just want her healthy again... she is NOT just a money maker and she is far more important to me than a bunch of eggs!!!
I had noticed a bit of weight loss, but I thought it was due to the fact that she had (at the time) double clutched for me and this was her first ever breeding and thought it had been "rough on her". Just to double check, I had a fecal done on her.

Opinions?
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Lisa
www.beginnersbasics.com

Hey Lisa,

Did the vet give you a field count? If not can you call them back and find out what it is at what magnificaton?

This is a choice you have to make for her and you, but if you can get the field, explain her overall situation now like eating and how much weight change (some may be due to the developing eggs) We can tell you of alternatives to treatment that might work or decrease the count til she lays the eggs.

If her health is in jeopardy of course, there is really no choice, but if she seems to be eating and basking, you can probably get her through this period and still have viable eggs with no harm to her.

Thanks Cheri.

She is eating like a champ and is acting good. I think the stress with this being her first breeding, etc may have brought this on.

She didn't give me a count, just said "a rather large amount." I am having to treat her two room mates also since they all live, eat, bask and sleep together.

>>Hey Lisa,
>>
>>Did the vet give you a field count? If not can you call them back and find out what it is at what magnificaton?
>>
>>This is a choice you have to make for her and you, but if you can get the field, explain her overall situation now like eating and how much weight change (some may be due to the developing eggs) We can tell you of alternatives to treatment that might work or decrease the count til she lays the eggs.
>>
>>If her health is in jeopardy of course, there is really no choice, but if she seems to be eating and basking, you can probably get her through this period and still have viable eggs with no harm to her.
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Lisa
www.beginnersbasics.com

Let me explain something about Albon and other treatments for coccidia. They do not kill coccidia, meds inhibit the reproduction of coccidia by interferring with the production of certain emzynes that the coccidia need to reproduce and thrive. Once they reproduce, the dragons re-ingest the immature oocysts that have passed out of their system in feces. This infects them with more that hatch and reach adulthood, increasing the load and infecting others in the same cage.

This is how parazap works, its natural ingredients that has been known for thousands of years it inhibits the reproduction, allowing the adult coccidia to be attacked by the dragons own immune system which is also boosted or the completion of the coccidia's life cycle. Its the re-ingesting them and the load becomes more than the dragon's system can deal with, especially if there are two or more together (it increased the potential for 2x or more the re-ingestion)

You can rid dragons of coccidia without treatment, it is a lot of work, but most thing that should be done with treatment anyway

We have lowered the count dramatically or got clean fecals just with changes in the husbandry. Sand has to go during this time period, its a biggest vector for transmission. Roger Klingerburg, DMV is of the belief also, its the cleaning and support methods that are the prime reason for stopping or lowering the coccidia problem, besides the stress.

If you want to try one of two methods we know that have worked, I will email them to you, too long to put on a post.

Thanks again Cheri.
She is only just "plumping up" in the belly area, so isn't that far along. She laid her 2nd clutch on the 8th of this month. I have gotten rid of the sand and I am using newspaper right now. I scrubbed the tank floor and also the walls last night and plan to do so every day for a few weeks. A lot of work, but well worth it for my girls
The funny thing is, I do use parazap as a preventitive measure. It is used monthly on all my dragons.

Please email me with your ideas, I would love to hear some other methods.

Can you believe... this is my first EVER run in with coccidia?!?!?! I have been VERY lucky up till now.

>>Let me explain something about Albon and other treatments for coccidia. They do not kill coccidia, meds inhibit the reproduction of coccidia by interferring with the production of certain emzynes that the coccidia need to reproduce and thrive. Once they reproduce, the dragons re-ingest the immature oocysts that have passed out of their system in feces. This infects them with more that hatch and reach adulthood, increasing the load and infecting others in the same cage.
>>
>>This is how parazap works, its natural ingredients that has been known for thousands of years it inhibits the reproduction, allowing the adult coccidia to be attacked by the dragons own immune system which is also boosted or the completion of the coccidia's life cycle. Its the re-ingesting them and the load becomes more than the dragon's system can deal with, especially if there are two or more together (it increased the potential for 2x or more the re-ingestion)
>>
>>You can rid dragons of coccidia without treatment, it is a lot of work, but most thing that should be done with treatment anyway
>>
>>We have lowered the count dramatically or got clean fecals just with changes in the husbandry. Sand has to go during this time period, its a biggest vector for transmission. Roger Klingerburg, DMV is of the belief also, its the cleaning and support methods that are the prime reason for stopping or lowering the coccidia problem, besides the stress.
>>
>>If you want to try one of two methods we know that have worked, I will email them to you, too long to put on a post.
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Lisa
www.beginnersbasics.com

had any since we changed the way we do things. I thought we would never get it under control. We finally did, but not with meds, they lowered some.

I had some unhappy dragons for awhile, but knock out cleaning, ditching the sand and boosting their immune system finally worked.

Email coming

Would it be possible for you to e-mail me with the info too? Or is it at the Reptile Rooms website? I would like to put this info on my website.

Thanks a bunch! You always have such great info!

Veronica

SO i have to rewrite it, unless Lisa will forward it to you.

Basically it is the cleaning routine on our website that is used when treating for high resistant coccidia, Plus adding an immune system builder like "Emeraid" We go two weeks on that and see if the load diminished. In the past it was very effective within the first two weeks, these were dragons that had been on Albon prior and I did not want to put them through another treatment as they were already showing signs of problems from the prior ones.

Only one still showed minimal amounts and we went another two weeks on the cleaning method adding parazap tea daily, and that one was clear when rechecked.

Additionally, we get in many dragons for rehab that are not thriving, most are loaded with coccidia. We always try this routine first before giving the meds now if the dragons are eating and basking well.

In June we got in one that was so yellow from coccidia blocking bile ducts, I was not sure we could pull him through along with 3 others that had coccidia (same owner). I did not think his kidneys and liver could handle treatment also. He just went to a new home with nice white scales and eating like a pig! We reduced his coccidia count to 1/2 what it was with the cleaning and parazap alone. This also reduced the coccidia enough that it freed up his bile ducts so I did have to follow that up with one light round of Albon 3 days on then every other day for 2 weeks. He was an adult and gained over 100 grams that month during treatment... keeping him really clean (cage and body) plus well hydrated to flush out oocysts reduced him so treating him was safe finally. He was taken into natural sunlight so his own immune system could build up and deal with it also during the cleaning routine and Emeraid. This dragon looked so much better I thought we would have a clear fecal, but he still had too many and we elected to use the meds on him with continued cleaning and parazap, along with acidophiLIZ .

The treatment is no good if it kills the dragon, and I felt with the blocked ducts it would have. With a gravid female, you have additional things to consider, being gravid, her system is already busy producing the eggs, kidneys more taxed than normal and the digestive process can be effected as the eggs develop in her. Treatment with meds is going to tax her system more and sometimes that may not be the best path for her, let alone the eggs. If the dragon is normal color, eating and basking, I would not treat them now, IMO it is better not only for the eggs, but her. If her health is already compromised and at risk, then I would treat but use close support methods on them and freeze the eggs when laid.

Link to cleaning routine and/or meds below:
Treating high resistant coccidia or with cleaning alone

...

But if I remember correctly, benebac has about the same thing in it.

Bene-bac is commonly used for birds

Bene-Bac provides 5 different species of beneficial bacteria to protect your reptile's fragile gastrointestinal system. Your reptile's digestion can be easily upset by changes, stress, and medication, and Bene-Bac replenishes the natural microorganisms that are disrupted under such conditions. Comes in 1/2 oz. gel form in an easy-dose syringe or in a powder in an economical 10 oz. jumbo jar.

Bene-Bac Syringe $ 8.99
Bene-Bac Powder $ 19.95

www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_Display.cfm?siteid=8&pCatId=6422

>>But if I remember correctly, benebac has about the same thing in it.

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Lisa
www.beginnersbasics.com

I'm going to Petsmart to get a package of Bene-Bac syringes. They are 1 oz. dosages. Can I give the entire dose (1 oz) to an adult beardie? Or how much to you recommend? I would guess that it would be hard to overdose on this stuff ... but anything is possible. And how many days to you give it? My oldest beardie is just coming off of a round of Baytril and I'm trying to get his appetite back. Thanks!

Veronica

Sorry, can't help with dosage amounts... It should say something like cc's per 100 grams or something similar.

>>I'm going to Petsmart to get a package of Bene-Bac syringes. They are 1 oz. dosages. Can I give the entire dose (1 oz) to an adult beardie? Or how much to you recommend? I would guess that it would be hard to overdose on this stuff ... but anything is possible. And how many days to you give it? My oldest beardie is just coming off of a round of Baytril and I'm trying to get his appetite back. Thanks!
>>
>>Veronica
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Lisa
www.beginnersbasics.com

those are what are additonal immune system builders and I had thought someone on here said it did. I looked on the website and can not tell

Emeraid has those plus vitamins and minerals

Live Naturally-occurring Microorganisms for birds and reptiles. Contains 10 million live (viable) colony-forming units per gram.
Ingredients: Dried Lactobacillus fermentum, dried L. casel (avian strain), dried Streptococcus faecium, L. planatarum and L. acidophilus fermentation products, vegetable oils, sugar, silicon dioxide, artificial color, Polysorbate 80, preserved with tertiary butyl hydroquinone and ethoxyquin.

>>those are what are additonal immune system builders and I had thought someone on here said it did. I looked on the website and can not tell
>>
>>Emeraid has those plus vitamins and minerals
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Lisa
www.beginnersbasics.com

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