Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Found this northern ringneck in Marinette Co., WI on Monday. Not a whole lot of these in Wisconsin anymore as they are listed as a Species of Special Concern here. If you are in an area where these beautiful snakes are plentiful, thank you for indulging me.

-----
Tim

too bad someone like you who actually appreciates them doesn't have access to them. Personally, I think they're even less interesting than garter snakes. No thrill whatsoever to come across them. There's a place I go to to find the occasional eastern milk snake but all I usually find are these little ringnecks that musk all over you if you pick them up. I usually just put the rock back down when I find them. No interest.

#
-----
Tim

Ringnecks are one of my favorite snakes. I love the small woodland species, but I can't seem to find any. I'm out and about nearly every day now looking for them, and haven't found a single one. Could you point me in the right direction for a good spot to find them in PA? I'm in Jersey, so I'll gladly make the trip to see one of my favorite snakes
-----
1.1 Albino Nelson's Milks
0.1 Dumeril's Boa
0.0.1 Albino Corn
0.1 Mex Mex
0.1 Northern Blue Tongue
0.0.1 Green Tree Frog
0.0.1 Cuban Tree Frog

Very pretty snake! The charcoal color offset by the gold band is beautiful. Thank you for sharing the pic. There are ringnecks here in RI, too, but I have never had the pleasure of spotting one.
-----
1.1 Ball Python
0.0.1 corn snake
1.0 Bearded Dragon
0.0.2 fish
1.2 cats
3.1 kids
1.0 husband

Dear Hadda:
You mention that there are not a whole lot of Ringneck Snakes in Wisconsin and that the species is of "Special Concern" thus implying the species may be listed in that category by your state's wildlife agency.

Do you know the basis for the above statements? Unless there has been factual information supporting the listing of 'special concern', I would be highly skeptical. Only if the Ringneck's habitat has been greatly reduced and/or degraded in your state, would those claim likely to have some validity.

Richard F. Hoyer

I don't believe the "special concern" tag has any legal meaning since that listing offers no special protection. I think the idea was to put a special label on those species whose populations are thought to be in great decline and have a good chance of ending up on the State Threatened or Endangered Species List in the near future.

Wisconsin is at the far northwest range limit of the northern ringneck. I don't believe the species ever populated the southwestern portion of the State and urbanization and intense agriculture has practically extripated them from much of their historic range in Wisconsin, leaving scattered local populations. They are still common in some areas in the northern part of the State.

At any rate, I realize they are very common over a great portion of their range, but I feel fortunate to have found one in Wisconsin.

Take care.
-----
Tim

While it might not be factual it very well might be apparent to this individual.
Ed

Ed:
If 'apparent' is based on observations in which a species' original distribution has been reduced in a substantial manner, this is a reasoned manner to arrive at a tentative opinion. Such circumstantial information can be grounds to perform a more formal assessment. However, wildlife agencies that list species in any category of concern without following science-based processes are acting in an unprofessional manner to say the very least. I do not believe that any university with a program in wildlife science advocate and condone the use of anecdotal information (appearances) as if such were fact in order to assess, list ,and manage species.

Perhaps the Wisconsin wildlife agency has done its homework and determined the percent habitat loss to the Ringneck Snake which thus warrants the listing of 'special concern'. I have no problem if that is the case. I do have a problem with any wildlife agency that assesses and lists species in some category of concern using anecdotal information and processes -- such as what seems to be 'apparent'.

So to return your favor, let me tell you a story about the Wisconsin Wildlife agency that deals with raptor biology. This account was published in either the N. Am. Falconers Assn. Hawkchalk publication or the organization's Annual so my general comments can be checked although I am not going to try and find that article as it was a number of years ago that it appeared. The author of that article was the individual that researched the species for his MS or PhD thesis project.

It is my understanding that at one time, the Cooper's Hawk was listed in some special category by Wisconsin's wildlife agency as it was common knowledge the species was scarce to rare in the state. I believe this was the opinion of some academics as well.
Along comes a grad student that proposed that his thesis involve a study of the Cooper's Hawk and particularly its reproductive biology in that state. As I recall, the grad student was warned about the scarcity of the species by biologists and/or his advisors who tried to disuade him from pursuing the project as it surely would prove to be a waste of time and effort and thus a dead end project.

As he has been warned, for considerable time (I believe well over a year) he came up with negligible results. Then things began to change as he gained field experience. To make a long story short, what seem 'apparent' to many, much to their dismay, the researcher discovered that instead of being rare, the species was one of the more numerically abundant medium size raptors in Wisconsin--as it probably is in many states.

There is a lesson to be learned by those with an open mind. Appearances, (that which seems to be 'apparent'), impressions, and perceptions are very frequently faulty because such notions are not based on factual information plus they fail to take into account the biological nature of certain species. Much to the Wisconsin Wildlife Agency's credit, if I have my facts right, they removed the Cooper's Hawk from whatever list it had been on in the state.

To this day, ask birders and wildlife biologists (not knowledgeable about raptors) and almost to the person they will tell you that the Red-tailed Hawk is more abundant than the Cooper's Hawk. They do so because their observations of the two species make this 'fact' apparent to them. But would you be surprised that such 'apparent' opinions are in error.

I believe either in Winconsin, Michigan, or Minn., there are annual fall migratory raptor counts. Check the yearly data from those counts and others across the nation then tell me which species is more numerous, the Red-tailed Hawk or Cooper's Hawk?

This same scenario has many parallels where herps are concerned. Species that have appeared to be rare, once studied in a science based manner, have been found to be common to abundant. When I was an undergraduate in Wildlife Science in the early 1950's, it was conventional wisdom amongst herpetologists that the Rubber Boa was rare. That (erroneous) perception persists amongst many today. I was in Utah and Nevada this past week and two individuals related to me their recent experience with biologists in their respective states which had expressed that perception. Just like the Cooper's Hawk, the Rubber Boa is a shy, secretive species which only produces an appearance of being 'rare' when in fact it is probably the most numerically abundant species in the much of the habitat it occupies in the Western U.S.

Richard F. Hoyer Corvallis, Oregon

Mr. Hoyer;

You bring up some very interesting points about secretive species. First of all, Minnesota does have annual raptor counts during the raptor migrations in spring and fall at Hawk Ridge in Duluth. Now, to provide a little more info on the Cooper's hawk, the name of the researcher is Dr. Bob Rosenfield. And, if I recall his Seminar that I attended correctly, the Cooper's Hawk has been de-listed in Wisconsin. His current research has yielded more points of interest. Mainly, the Cooper's Hawk has traditionally not been listed in field guides as a bird found in North Dakota. Dr. Rosenfield has been studying the species in North Dakota, however, and has found viable populations across the state in large stands of trees planted to protect farm houses from the lovely North Dakota winter winds.

I think that this is important for two reasons. One, it shows that what we may read in a field guide or text book may not necessarily be fact, but merely the best information available. Second, the need for serious research is essential to the progression of any field of study. Unfortunately, having worked with state agencies myself, the "research" employed is often based on anectdotal information.

Take Minnesota, for example. The Eastern Massasauga is still listed as a species found in the state. However, in speaking with the MN DNR, you will find that there have been no validated sightings in the last 50 years, and the only reason it is claimed to be in the state is because some were brought in when Minnesota still had a "rattlesnake bounty." However, these snakes could have easily been brought in from Wisconsin, simply for the money. Thus, the species is listed in Minnesota, yet no surveys have been conducted by state agencies to validate the claim.

Thanks for bringing up an interesting discussion!

BigSur08:
Thanks for filling in some of the gaps as it has been a number of years since I read the particulars about the Cooper's Hawk study in Wisconsin. As an active falconer, I am always interested in information on birds of prey as well as herps.

Your 2nd paragraph comment about current information in field guides and texts as being the best information known at the time is right on target. The same holds true for published research. Unfortunately, individuals, including biologists and some academics, take such information as if it was the final word and of course that is often not the case. Adjustments, revisions, etc. are a continuing process in science as new discoveries and information become available.

Concerning the second point in your 2nd paragraph, wildlife agencies generally have not been funded to pursue serious research on non-game species. How the use of anecdotal information (junk science) got started in wildlife agencies is a major mystery as that process is totally contradictory to what is acceptable in science--including wildlife science. It is counter to the ethical conduct to which I was exposed in my undergraduate years. I recenly conferred with two respected professionals here at Oregon State University (Dr. Stevan Arnold, herpetologist and Chair of the Zoology Dept., and Dr. Erik Fritzell, past Chair of O.S.U. Dept. of Wildlife Science) and both gentlemen confirmed that the use of anecdotal information, as if factual in scientific endeavors, is still unacceptable. This include the assessment and listing of species. Yet this unsavory and unprofessional practice seems to be widespread amongst state wildlife agencies. In fact, one of these gentlemen mentioned that the situation was even worse within some federal wildlife agencies.

I am perplexed as it would be far more professional, ethical, and honest to proceed in ways that are acceptable in the scientific community. Where funding is not available for even rudimentary surveys of non-game species, agencies could simply apply basic tenets of population biology/wildlife science in order to provide a 'ball park' measure of the general
'health' of various species. Use of simple models is also an acceptable method of gaining some understanding of the status of wildlife populations.

And yes, it was my understanding that after the research findings were presented, Wisconsin delisted the Cooper's Hawk. There are a number of lessons to be learned from this (and other similar) examples.

1) Clearly, the original listing of the Cooper's Hawk was in error and the species should never have been listed in the first place.

2) Since the species probably had not been studied previously in Wisconsin, it is likely that the original listing was based on non-scientific information.

3) The original listing probably was based on professional or expert opinion. Once again, this demonstrates why anecdotal information (even from 'experts') is suspect to worthless unless supported by acceptable, scientific evidence.

Richard F. Hoyer

yours is definately bigger than his. Now, can you please get them off the table.
To be honest what was the point of your dissertation if the masses do not understand it. Doesn't that negate the point of communication.
Ed
(a member of the masses)

Wildlife management seems to be moving toward total restriction rather than taking the time and spending the money to do detailed analysis of wild populations. I think Richard was only encouraging people to be aware of this. He was not demeaning his find in any way.

Hadda:
Communication has never been one of my strong points so please accept my apology if my original remarks came across in a negative manner for that certainly was not my intent. I am nearly 70 and still get a kick out of finding any species of herp no matter how common let alone the species in which I have special interest.

Ed: If the message I tried to convey was not clear, email your questions to charinabottae@earthlink.net and perhaps I can do a better job of explaining.

Aaron: Thanks for alerting me to the fact my original follow-up may have been misconstrued.

Richard F. Hoyer

But thanks for caring.
-----
Tim

I’m sorry if the intent was not malicious and I interpreted it as such.
Ed

He doesn't have a mean bone in his body..... And the masses should know this.................... Yourself included.....

And he works harder in the field than many I herp with including 20-30 yrs olds.................................................

Everyone can learn a few things from Mr Hoyer........
(myself included)
Manners, respect, herps, population densities, herp ethics and more.

Fundad

Brings back very fond memories of my first 'exotic' snake find.
It's kinda funny that a person comented on me getting excited about finding some Anoles this last week. I pray I never loose that feeling.
Very cool find.
Ed

I doubt this will ever get old for me either. I still enjoy catching green frogs for crying out loud
-----
Tim

.

That feeling when you see anything wild is the best,be it a cool bird or a herp, even deer that i try to ride along with on my bike. I get it all the time and I dont go after anything, I just happen to see what I see when I am biking in the woods or trails in Jersey, nothing real fancy although this summer I found a spotted turtle, thats about as exotic as I ever got. Mostly I see black racers, large snappers in the spring , water snakes and actually I found 2 little ringnecks as I was raking leaves this spring, they were the coolest.
I must say it has been a good year around here, I must've seen 10 boxers alone, I dont think I saw 10 in the last 3 years combined.
be cool

Ringnecks have an odd and very irregular distribution around here (OK), where it's the Prairie Ringneck. Some areas are thick with them, while they're virtually absent in other areas not so far away. I don't know if that's the case with other subspecies in other areas. The fact that they're generally very secretive also suggests that true distribution may be hard to determine.
-----
MichaelB

Great looking snake man. I hope I never get tired of catching the normals, I still jump in head high water for a nerodia . Those Ringnecks aren't real common down here in Houston. When I caught my first Ringneck earlier this yr while Rd hunting I was freaking out, defanitely one of my best finds ever..........Scott Wahlberg

Always nice to see others that appreciate the smaller woodland snakes. Though very common in Kentucky, I never tire of seeing them. This is a pic of one from this year.

How did you get him to settle down like that? Mine was very nervous and it was about 90. I ended up shooting a few quick photos on the run and praying one would turn out. It started to stress pretty fast so I had to return him to his cozy spot. I got lucky and two shots turned out very nice.

It's kind of funny how my little post of a northern ringneck generated such an elaborate thread. I guess that's why I like these boards so much.
-----
Tim

cup your hand over the little guy and when it settles down move your hand away quickly. 9 times out of 10 they freeze. Then if you need to reposition it use a twig. It doesn't freak them out like a finger.
Ed
(at least that's what I do)

Thanks! If I remember correctly that pic was taken early one morning in the Spring before it had a chance to warm up much. This always makes getting pic's easier when the snakes are still a little sluggish.
Also like EJ mentioned, cupping the snake will often times result in it freezing for a short time. For this, I use a plastic peanut butter jar lid that I keep in my camera bag. Anytime I attempt to shoot a small snake or even most amphibians, I use this method.It usually works very well.

This is a pic of a larger than average ringneck I took earlier this year. Somewhere between 18"-20".

The cupped hands thing does work great. It wasn't having any of that though. Cool temps definitely make things easier.
-----
Tim

I found ringnecks to be more common in coastal areas of Lakes Michigan and Huron. They seem to be habitat specific and absent from many other habitat types.

Wisconsin lists them as "special concern", but doesn't protect them. Michigan doesn't list them, but if they did, "special concern" status would mean no collecting. Interesting...hmmmm?

This photo is of a snake I found in June of 2003 along with about a dozen others. I also found a large number of them on Bois Blanc Island in Lake Huron a couple weeks ago. Good catch anyway and hope it isn't the last.

I always enjoy your posts.
-----
Tim