Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I just posted this on another forum. It is about a discussion of husbandry and deseases and cures, etc.

It brought up a point that I feel is very important and was once brought up here. So I thought I would post it.

Of course, the names are meaningless, are they are a username for another forum. I hope I offend no one. Buts I feel its worth posting here. Cheers.

First I would like to thank Krusty and I do understand its not personal and we do not have to agree.

Context folks context. Cheers

Nice post Frank, I have been following this topinc on two other forums (your forum is one of them). It is always intresting to she how people approach/solve their or someone else problems (normally people trying to solve other people's problems). This should become a good topic (maybe even a littled heated).
BTW I have respect for both FR and Krusty, you both are smart individuals.

Actually the fun of our discussion is based on someone who did the right thing.

I believe you can coach keepers into better care. But when it comes to events like this a sick or dying animal, a vet is the only course. The original poster had already done that and more.

Which means the rest was all in fun and of no serious application.

The focal point is, why do people make something so easy, so complicated. I imagine this is the question I am seaching for an answer for.

Its odd, most ask me questions to fill a need. In this, I have that need to be addressed, yet it never gets answered. I try to figure out why people start complicated and work towards making it simplier later. Cheers

This is where i agree with FR on you have to listen to your monitor. The big subject of the discussion was dusting crickets with a vitamin, calcium supplment since the stors showed a low Ca/p ratio. Like Daniel had mentioned in his first post, he has had success with other stors (no probs).
Anyways while watching this discussion grow on two forums I always find myself caught at the fact that *****there is no calcium, vitamin supplment station for the monitors (in this case Austraila)to dab their food in.***** If a monitor is keep properly and feed properly then "normally" it should have no major issues, however there will always be the rare properly keep monitor that will have health issues (just a way of life)
I see krusty and others point-of-view on the importance of this and that chemical and the effects on the animal. I think as long as the monitor has access food items they offer proper nutrition then dusting with minerals and such is kind of a waste of time when combined with proper caging.
In easy terms if the monitors are crunching down lizards, rodents, insects or what they grab a hold of and over power and are living and breeding successfully this way in the wild without supplements then why should we provide supplements. wild monitors: Proper habitat proper nutrition = breeding and surviving
captive monitors: proper caging proper nutrition= breeding, happy monitor
same out come which is good enough for my monitor

opps
wild monitor: proper habitat proper nutrition= breeding, surviving monitor
captive monitor: proper caging proper nutrition (food)= breeding, happy surviving monitor
just looked funny with other the plus signs on the other post

There is always more to it. Once the discussion left Daniels Storrs, and it did that right off. You see, Daniel not only dusted his crickets, but also gutloaded them. So it makes this need to dust or not, sorta silly. People keep going back to the storrs has having a bit low blood serum level for calicum. Then saying oh man, you need to dust insects. Concentrate folks, concentrate. He was doing that in spades.

So the need to dust is not even appropriate in this discussion, as that animal had dusted crickets. Thus this discussion was no longer about Daniels storrs. I bet Daniels never ever going to post again. hahahahahaha Daniel, its not about you, you appear to be doing great. No worries, its about them, not you.

Then I mentioned that I commonly raised many species of odatria, on only crickets that were not dusted with anything or gutloaded. And on pinkies/fuzzies, and both, and more and less. As in, TESTED MANY APPROACHES. Because those others did not do this, they convienently throw it out of their minds.

I then mentioned I only started dusting when I encountered a problem with tristis(first) because I produced so many babies, I was raising the in lots of several dozen per cage. That problem was cured with a vitamin/mineral suppliment. So a clear mind would understand you must have some success if you first encountered problems because of an overabundance of babies produced. Since most here cannot even produce one or two and they do dust. Rude, yes, I know that, but its to understand the issue. They really cannot understand what i said. As they cannot understand bins of dozens.

So I started dusting, Now a lesson in history, at that time, there were nearly no successful breeders in the states, or in the world for that matter, that produced numbers. There were several in Europe that reliably produced low numbers. At that time, they did not use this type of suppliments. It appears I am the one who popularized it for monitors.

Back to the problem animal. We do not know what occurred as the keeper has not reported to us on more results from the lab or any further condition of the animal. (hiding I bet)Yet the discussion rages. Funny if you ask me.

In our discussion, I merely question the OVER USE, not the use of suppliments. Which is clearly questioned in all living animals, including us. The original keeper, gutloaded(which i consider stupid) and dusted with quality suppliments. If anything, it could only be an overdose. OR, not about the dusting. Simple problem solving, it(this) works with and without something, it ain't the something. Instead, its most likely something else.

So the debate runs on. Only as usual the debate does not know what its debating.

I still practice a non varied diet and I still have the most successes and the least problems.(stating point of view) I am guessing on the most successes, at least amoung the most. But because I do not have any calicum problems, I have to be amoung the least. As in ZERO. And considering I am talking about numbers.

When I third party myself, you look at this from the sideview. Its very interesting and humorous.

The reality is, on our forum, its a preschooler, having a heated discussion with a sophmore in college. Which does happen, but the chances a first grader having the experience to carry on a decent discussion is slim. OK impossible. Not because the first grader is not smart. Simply because the first grader lacks experience. In this case, the first grader has not hatched a monitor yet(or few) Which indicates a lack of experience in raising monitors. Where my analogy falls flat is, in real life we all know a first grader has no concept of what life will teach him between first grade and college. In reality of this debate, my discussion partner is an adult. And should be able to understand that having three laying females that just started laying has nothing in common with the experience of having hundreds of laying females over a great lenght of time.

I have to think, that when folks grab these ideas and cling to them so tightly, its in a desperate attempt of hope. They so hope they are right, but do not know, because of lack of experience. They really want their animals to do well, and hope this something is the key.(to many keys)

So yes, the discussion is silly, but it does point out, there is a current desperate need to understand captive husbandry. There are now different levels of husbandry and their associated problems. Poor husbandry(PH) expresses its many problems, Basic husbandry(BH) expresses its unique set of problems, as advanced husbandry exhibits its own unique set of problems. Its the naive that confuses that. The reason they confuse it, easy, because they have no idea which is which and what it does. Hence they are naive. You do understand, its really not all that complicated. Which is one main point, why complicate something easy.

And as i mentioned, Its far less complicated then understanding the mechanics of calicum use and ca/ph ratios. Let vets do that, thats their job. You job is to keep the monitors healthy. You should concentrate on that. You do not need to know all there is to know.(that tends to get in the way of simple things)

Now for the punchline. I believe the reason smart folks dwell on those things is because they have the ability to seek out and obtain that information and memorize it to a tee. But as smart as they are, they cannot speed up the learning or experience level gained from the actual animals. As fast as monitors are(compared to other reptiles), they are slow compared to reading a book or investigating all manner of papers. This has been true for a long time. Unfortunately the truth and real information lays with the animals.

This is where i came in actually, when I started with monitors, I did not screw around, I build a facility that produced results. I sped up the information process. The facility either produced tons of information or it would stop completely. All have failed to understand that.

By comparison, I had nearly a hundred successful breeding colonies of odatria, at one time. At about that same time, I visited a well known european breeder, he did very well, but he had maybe ten, twelve females. I ask, which one produces the most information? In all reality, I can be ten times dumber, heck, I would still experience more and learn more then that super smart European breeder. In a real analogy, he was reading a page a day, I was reading 100 pages a day. IF he had five times better retention, I would still be learning twenty times more. We will not go into the exponent factor. U know, each day that those numbers stay the same, you know I am five times less smart, the gap of information between us widens at an incredible rate. Of course then tables off.

Why I bring that up is, its not about me, or them, its merely about exposure. At this time, we average fifteen gravid monitors at any given time year around. (we have slowed way down)You have to admit, that teaches you something.

If you want to learn about monitors, the smart thing is, make decisions that expose you to monitors. Thats what i did. But it created a problem, it made the gap so wide, others fail to understand it. They keep thinking(the smart ones) my one, yields the same information as his fifty. Hmmmmmmmmm not all that likely.

Which of course leads back to the begining. On a daily basis, I see, monitors nesting, hatching, pairing, fighting, breeding, etc etc. Something omitted is, all this is based on properly raising monitors. Most forget that at all times, I have a grip of raise ups. This is not a exact count, but I imagine I have over 100 babies hmmmmmm 150 babies of many species growing up successfully right now. And have for a decade and a half. So what would I know? its not the dust. hahahahahahahahaha

Thanks for your patience. Cheers

Homo sapiens.

I think it is part of the nature of the beast (humans) to complicate almost everything, not just Varanus husbandry.
The KISS (keep it simple, stupid) is used extensively in drug and alcohol rehab programs. It this case, people in these programs generate complicated justifications for their drug or alcohol use.
It seems that people tend to complicate their lives for entertainment, for excitement (especially the adrenaline rush), to feel important, or feel a purpose for their lives. Sometimes, it is just to have something to talk about.
Simplicity is generally equated with boring. The quest for simplicity is somewhat against the nature of humans, even though there is something appealing about it. For example, “On Walden Pond” by Henry David Thoreau.
It is also about the money. It is about making the money to buy things we don’t need so someone else can make money to do the same thing.

In the case of reptile husbandry, I think the general train of thought is: if PH (pet shop husbandry) does not work for a species, then the husbandry automatically must be more complicated.

In the case of Varanus husbandry, there is complexity, or a better word might be difficulty, in the simplicity. Most people must and/or want to keep monitors in their house or apartment. In most cases, a trough filled with several hundred pounds of dirt with proper heat, cool, and humidity does not fit well in the living room, bedroom, or even the basement. Then one is not enough. How many animals are enough? That is a whole ‘nother thread! Ditto for the food supply. I am amazed at how many people do not understand that frozen mice belong in the freezer next to the steaks. To summarize this part of my thought, it takes a special use area or building with special use items, cages, etc. to properly support Varanus . This is true for most reptiles in any numbers past 1 or 2. So there is complexity in the simplicity of keeping Varanus. Because special use areas and equipment are not possible, or are only partially possible, for so many keepers, I think many revert to PH, and try to compensate with complexity. If a person can only supply a fish tank with a wire cover, they try to force the animal to survive in those conditions, and then look for a complicated reason why they fail and a complicated remedy.

Quoting FR,

“The focal point is, why do people make something so easy, so complicated. I imagine this is the question I am seaching for an answer for.

Its odd, most ask me questions to fill a need. In this, I have that need to be addressed, yet it never gets answered. I try to figure out why people start complicated and work towards making it simplier later.”

The simple answer is: it is in the nature of the beast = human nature.

I suppose a person could get all physico-babble and try to understand why this is, but in keeping with the theme of the KISS, it is easier to recognize what is, and deal with it.

It appears to me that you (FR) have taken on the job of helping people untie the complicated knot we have made for ourselves by our own nature in the area of reptile husbandry. This is a good thing. In my case, you have helped more than I can express.

Thank you,
AG Bull

You made some very good points, but one is clearly something that needs to be discussed.

The support of varanids, is not tiny. They have legs and need some room. So why do people attempt to keep a Nile, Water, or Sav in a bedroom or apartment?

yes, this subject borders on decision making and other hidden human needs. Its so stupid to attempt to do, that is causing laws to be extablished to prevent this stupidity.

While I hate being controlled by government. I do u know. Do people really need to have laws to prevent them from doing something so dumb. I meant waters, hmmmmmmmm if done correctly, get HUGE. The entire room would be a nest box, hahahahahahaha, a small nest box. Mentioned that just to add scale(pun)

But your right, its often a case of defending poor choices. Simply put, there are folks capable of supporting large monitors, lots in reality, and those not capable due to current conditions(no space) and they cannot figure that simple problem out.

Surely ackies and other odatria can be kept very successfully in a bedroom(been there and done that) Ackies are a good species, storrs even better if space is a limitation, Gilleni is even better, Stripetails even better. Kings even better then that. Brevis even better. hmmmmmmm

Instead of the government making all these laws to control people keeping large monitors, how about them importing and having us establish more small species. OK, that takes common sense, which government lacks. Cheers

A few things I'd like to point out. Where to start?

First FR - it's in poor taste to post names and move discussions w/ people calling them out just because that person decided to ignore the babble on the other forum. (jburokas = Krusty for the record everyone). If i wanted to discuss it any further, i would have. It got lengthy and your posts meander through so much non-topic fodder that i just couldn't deal with it any longer. The smoke was getting to my eyes. Me and my lizards are fine and i've got better things to do.

Then you decide to use the analogy that you're a sophmore in college and i'm a preschooler in a half-baked attempt to discredit me publicly. Yeah,....it's all about the monitors. My posts seem to have gotten under your skin if you feel you have to name-call and such. Notice I NEVER do that.

In 4 short years of keeping i've hatched monitor eggs (the first fertile clutch i ever had, too) and have received multiple clutches and such since you are so focused on "how many have you bred?" being your argument when you get painted into a corner (repeatedly) stating things like "too much supplementing will cause gout" (protein/purine problem unrelated to calcium, hmmmm) , "monitors don't have hemibacula...that's from dehydration" and "calcium levels in the blood are huey" (yet you then proclaim going to the vet is good when there is a problem). You're not interested in what's wrong if someone needs a vet? What a shame. That's a wealth of additional information you turn away from.

For the 100th time, i don't have these problems, never had. But i can understand them and explain them normally. This stuf is rudimentary (sorry sophmore...'easy') to diagnose, man. WTF do you think the vets are doing when a lizard shows textbook MBD symptoms? They inquire how the lizard is kept. What it's fed. They get a blood test. And that guy's lizard had LESS THAN 5 TIMES THE NORMAL CALCIUM LEVELS IN IT'S BLOOD. It's a wonder it wasn't tremoring sooner.

So I am still looking for the keeper (notice i don't name him rudely on other forums) and wanting to know what the vets did and what the new labs show. How much do you wanna bet I'm dead on with a) how they treated it and b) what the new labs show in it's Ca : P after recovery? Obviously, if he is already supplementing his bugs there is something else that is off. Maybe if he had 11 instead of 12 together the problem would just disappear by your logic. Yet you admit your 12 tristis got MBD symptoms that improved with dusting minerals.

The bottom line: You don't supplement, i do. I don't go overboard with it, though. The gutload AND dusting thing is overkill, yes. But commercially raised bugs are repeatedly shown to be higher in Phosphorus vs Calcium. If you don't feed the bugs well or dust them, how does a growing lizard make up that deficit? That's the million dollar question to you (chopped up mice/pinkies is the answer - you already revealed that a long time ago).

My animals are healthy and reproduce, so do yours. You're like 60 and have been doing this longer - so you pull the 'trump' to make sure you win the debate (seemingly). In actuality, you've been painted into a corner (again) and feel the need to discredit your opponent in a desperate attempt to save face. I expect you will go ahead and delete my post as always. But after all this nonsense fodder, the lizard didn't have enough Calcium in it's system to function normally and it was in his care for 3 months before any symptoms showed up at all. The real task at hand is for that keeper to figure out why. I hope we didn't scare him off the forums with all this bickering, lol.

Justin, I am responding to another persons post. Period. I am not flushing you out, no offense, thats silly. I gave no second thought about you not posting further, I fact, I did not notice that at all.

Justin you said, FR, do not take it personal, and we do not have to agree, you said that Justin. I argee, its not personal. May I suggest, you missing a great educational tool.

In all reality, You teach me nothing, and I teach you nothing, But our discussions cause so many others to learn. Sir, that is the purpose of forums. I do not need your help and lets assume you do not need mine(you don't), are we the only two in the world? You mentioned your mistakes to enlighen others. What happened to that approach?

To switch up, do any of you think you effect Jobi by disagreeing with him? hahahahahahaha Ain't going to happen, nor is it going to happen with me, but your agreeing or not, and the following discussions is of value and entertainment to many others.

Now Please consider this. Our forum is about monitors(which at times is boring) This forum is 99% about people. The reason is simple. Somewhere close to 99% of husbandry issues are about the people and not the animals. The best learning tool to better husbandry is to clear the plate and learn what is ACTUALLY useful. That was my best tool. The key here is the same as learning in any field, to pick the right direction to follow it and keep the non useful information out. Varanid information spans the gamit from totally non useful, to totally of value. The keepers task IS TO PICK. And hopefully for the sake of the monitor/s be right. So the value of my post is TO HELP SOMEONES CHARGES, not to flush you out. OH my, how silly.

The reality is, I am a rougue amoung older varanid keepers, the reason, I took a fresh approach. They all told me it would not work, my monitors would die. Trouble is, it did not work out that way. My husbandry and approach did work.

In the old days, the keepers were more about being knowledgeable on all things varanid and expert at none. No specialists, no to little actual success. I specialized and to be successful, I had to tune them out.

What is odd is, If I had failed, they would have been right, I would have been a fool to ignore them. But I did not fail, in fact, very much the opposite.

I feel there is no need to understand ca/ph ratios and any such thing. I feel thats for vets to concentrate on and for us to create conditions that we do not have to see vets.

As I mentioned you, who has the tools to actually measure blood serum levels, not me, and not 99.9999% of keepers, in fact, very few vets do either. The samples are sent to a lab.

Lets jump up, So now, we have tools in husbandry that I brought to the table. Such things as retes boards, deep substrate, wide range of temp and humidity options, nesting as an important tool, vitamin/mineral suppliments, cattle troughs,(which I find funny), and more. That resulted in monitors growing quickly, maturing quickly, multiclutching commonly and still living long lives. Yes, before me, dusting monitor food was not done commonly.

It also eliminated those problems I mentioned associated with PH.

So yes, I feel I should discuss the use and over use of suppliments.

In the early days, I had to work to get keepers to see the benefit of the above husbandry tools. Now a days, I have to work to insure they are not overdoing them, which they commonly are.

Back to you, THIS IS NOT ABOUT YOU. Don't you think my post and this subject is important enough for the folks on KS to read? Cheers

Its an old problem and has been exposed before. You think its important to know and understand the parts and purpose of monitor parts( a mechanic, a biologist)

I on the otherhand do not dwell on that. I think and practice behavior(ethlogy) as the important eliment of husbandry, I feel that is what is most important.

I think the actual fine workings of organs and such are best left to Vets, heck what else are they going to do? humor.

As I constantly bring up, I have had no need for vets in many years and many many generations of many species. (which is why I can call it huey)

You are kinda making it personal, and thats fine with me. So I want to ask you, How many monitors have you hatched? how many clutches have you hatched? how many clutches have you personally experienced? of your animals, how many of those have you hatched and raised to maturity. I ask because, our opinions and thoughts, should be a direct reflection of those very things.

You are a firm (stubborn) supporter of what your saying, so I want to hear what supports that. And keep it in context. Your experience, your thoughts. and yes, your results with monitors. Apples to apples u know.

I know its not fair to bring up my whole history, so I will offer whats happening today. I have approx 50 young adults to old adults of many species, of those I hatched all but four. There are extra males and pairs that are purposely not being bred. I have approx 80 babies(raise ups) of which I hatched all of them, and their parents, and their parents. And approx 120 eggs of several species incubating.

Again, for others to get an accurate assessment of our opinions, they need to weight the results.

To backtrack, Your saying me or any keeper needs to understand calicum balance and that type of thing to successfully keep monitors. My opinion is, that is not necessary and I do not dwell on that in the least. Again best left to the experts, Vets.

My husbandry has prevented me for having to learn anything about that calicum stuff. So yes, as you can see, in the actual function of organs, I am somewhat naive. As I have had no reason to learn that stuff. I am a bit more familiar with the reproductive organs as I have had problems in that area of varanid biology. Mostly in the past.

Now please understand, I never said you were bad at keeping or bad at anything. In fact, much the opposite. Your relatively new and we have different opinions as to what is important. You dwell on mechanical function, and I dwell on behavioral function.

If you really think your right, show me, I am willing to learn. But please keep in mind MY results as well as yours.

Lastly I do understand that varanid mechanics is a fun topic and many like talking about it, or theorizing about it, and thats great, but keep on point, its use in the actual keeping of monitors. Thanks for your ear. Cheers

The most simple summary is still this: a guy's monitor had a Calcium to Phosphorus ratio of 1:5 and all the classic symptoms of NSHP or CD as you referenced it. Normal (whether you know this or not) is more in the range of 3:1 to 2:1. You can refute that, call vets, whatever. I offered advice to the man and you said 'That's all huey. Who's to say what normal is.' I referenced and quoted vet-backed information. So you question veterinary medicine and lab values, not me. That's fine. I just pointed out the obvious.

I then stated that the keeper should listen to your advice on proper husbandry of Storr's. You've raised them, hatched them,etc,etc,etc. You would know. I also listed the known fact that commercially raised insects are Phosphorus-heavy and dusting bugs is a remedy-you admitedly have used it in the past with success. You still don't agree. OK. Better husbandry may have prevented the problem in the first place. That - you may be 100% correct about. But quit with the 'preschooler' name calling and such. THAT makes it personal to me. Can you discuss w/o name calling? The information is what it is for everybody to read. I don't disagree with you that better husbandry may have helped this guy, but in a critical time w/ a lizard seizuring and likely metabolizing it's skeleton - i don't agree with you to do absolutely nothing because a couple other of his lizards are asymptomatic. Please don't make me respond to this discussion any further. Let people make up their own minds.

Guezzz you ask for it. I am not questioning what it had, I do question, how it got to that point. But your too focused on formulas to understand that. There are many ways for a monitor to malfunction, and substandard(poor) husbandry IS the cause of nearly all malfunctions.

So What makes you so sure, as far as I have read, no conclusion has be reported by the lab(not on our forum). So your the only one making conclusions.

You see, my mention of religion FITS right here. You have no faith in the monitors(or experience), so you only have faith in chemistry. Faith being the key word, not facts or lessons, or results.

If you HAD experience, you may understand, that kidney malfunction, can and will exhibit the same symtoms as CD(i use that because CD has many forms caused by many different situations)

Kidneys effect the blood(filters) In this case, the vet should check not only blood serum, but also bone density. Its bone density that defines CD. Blood serum can be a very temporary condition effected by short term conditions. Bone density is the reflection of blood serum over long periods, not daily. Yes, monitors can have non optimum serum levels, without becoming deseased. At least temporarily. Low blood serum levels is an indicator to investigate further, not diagnose desease.

Its weak bone density and cartilidge overgrowth, bone softening, and yes, tremors, that ARE CD. As I mentioned, tremors are also caused by kidney malfunction.

So now I am saying, if your going to educate yourself in chemistry, do a better job and take some lab classes.

What you fail(many others as well), to understand is, there is a huge difference between a handful of events(what you have) and 10,000 events. You see along the way to that number, there are a grip of exceptional conditions and results are are included in normal or abnormal, accidents, failures, variations, unexpected data, etc.

Even things like ackies eggs hatching in sixty days, not normal, but happens. Stuff occurs with numbers. But sadly you appear like the others and when you see numbers that I mention, you take that as bragging or ignore them altogether. That is YOUR failing not mine. You should be asking, what can happen between a few and a lot.

I have said a million times, these animals have been reproducing all on their own for millions of years, and without our help and even better, inspite of human interference, tractors, insectisides, etc. So no, I do not think its bragging to allow a monitor to do something IT ALREADY KNOWS HOW TO DO.

But you appear too insecure to actually look at success(mine) as a learning tool. So I ask, why on gods earth do you think your so smart?

My all time favorite monitor conversations(captive monitors) was with Dr. Ube Krebs. The reason was, we were peers, actual peers. He had bred ackies since 1978. He was not insecure. We spoke of monitors without human insecurity. I would mention facts that differed from his, he did not freak out, he simply wanted to know what conditions cause that. He did not defend himself, or argue, he ASKED QUESTIONS, that IS SCIENTIFIC.

One example was, he reported that ackies first clutches were 8 to 12 eggs. I then mentioned, you must not raise them together. Maybe you put pairs together at about two years of age. He said, Thats right, how the heck did you know?, I said, because if you raised them together, they would lay 3 to 6 eggs their first clutch and it would be in 6 months to a year area. He said, hmmmmmm, don't you have problems with small females becoming egg bound, I said no and explained more options in nesting. He used nest boxes and that NOW appear marginal, those often caused problems with the old and the young. IF you actually try and understand what I just said, which I doubt. You would understand, that something works or has success, also means it has many many levels. Not one. That kind of thinking is for kids(newbies). And surely you appear to not want to be thought of, as a kid(newbie) so open your mind to the possibility of numbers, experience and what different conditions cause.

ALso, about vet medicine, BECAUSE there is so little actual reproduction with varanids(our fault) Vets, do not have experience in the area of reproductive biology in varanids. Its a new area. And if we do not get better, as least enough to surface common problems, vets will never know or understand.

As it is, vets and labs, are experienced and expert at PH occurred problems, but are very naive with BH or better, problems. You know, problems occurred from performance, not lack of performace.

With that in mind, if you ask a vet, any vet, if an ackie(or any monitor) can have 18 clutches in a row(getting ready for 19) they would tell you it could not happen. Or how about laying 58 clutches in 9 years. Again they would say it could not happen, (but it has happened. Yes they can do that). They would say, It could not happen because the monitors cannot metabolize that much energy that fast. Which goes back to the start, Yes, they can, but not under the same conditions that only allows one clutch. You see, there are more pages to that monitor book and you have not read them. And after 10,000 clutches, I still have most of the book to read too. Get that?

Once Daniel Bennett came here(he came more then once) I showed him how to see eggs inside a female. I showed him a female kings monitor that had no eggs inside her, on monday. On tuesday I showed him that same female, Hmmmm now it has eggs. He said, IT was my understanding that took several months. As in, over winter it took months to convert fat limpets to yolk, etc. I said, nope, in a day. You see, his understanding limited his opinions and understanding on multiclutching. Academics think forming eggs takes months. If that were true, monitors could not multiclutch. As it would take to long. Please, this is an example of lack of experience limiting ones ability to SEE what is ACTUALLY there.

Lets take differing conditions. You think what your seeing with your wonderful success is normal. If you did the same thing for a period of time, say 5 or ten years. You would say what you received is normal. But what you recieved is not what I recieved. So you think I am the oddball. Lets look at this a little closer. Your keeping red ackies. Red ackies occur in western central W.A. They occur in very arid hot areas. Where they live commonly reaches 110F to 125F during the summer. With records of 137F(Goldsworthy W.A.) With 100F plus days, for most of the year. Which is in the middle of Red ackies range. With that in mind, our RED ACKIES here in arizona, experience more similar conditions to their habitat of origin, that yours do in Fla. But, here in my area, its not nearly so hot as where they actually occur. So do you think they should express the same results and abilities in these three areas?????? The same ability and use of metabolism? The same ability to convert prey to energy? The same ability to heal, etc. And you wonder why I think your not being as smart as you think you are. I admit, you appear very very smart and good at caring for your monitors(attentive) your just very very very limited in experience. In this, naive comes to mind. Open your mind to what you don't know. Cheers

Niles, Waters, and Savs, oh my! Sorry. I could not resist.

FR quote: “So why do people attempt to keep a Nile, Water, or Sav in a bedroom or apartment?”

In my experience, the reason people try to keep these animals in a bedroom or an apartment is because people use these animals to supply some personal need. I have seen you identify this in posts from the past. It is usually not about the animals, it is about satisfying a human need. I would rather not try to debate whether or not this is a legitimate use for these animals. For the purposes of this discussion, I think we can observe that this is what happens, that there are probably a variety of needs, and that it is not about the animals. The usual result is a dead animal.
To illustrate, I once attended “show and tell” night at a herp club meeting. Two guys in their mid twenties showed up with their animals. One guy had a huge Burmese python around his neck and they other guy had an obese Water Monitor on a leash. People were allowing their small children to approach these animals and pet them on the head as if these animals were puppies. This was a train wreck waiting to happen. It was obvious to me this was not about the animals. Most of the information these guys were giving was just plain wrong. It was all about these guy’s egos. It was obvious by the look on their faces that they really needed to be in the spotlight, and this circus was supplying that need. To say it in reverse, this would never happen if their passion was about the animals. If it was about the animals, they would be properly caged and the kids would be looking through glass to see them. Bottom line is these things happen. Forums like this do help to educate, but most will not listen. People want those big lizards to satisfy themselves, and they do not care about the facts.

FR quote: “yes, this subject borders on decision making and other hidden human needs. Its so stupid to attempt to do, that is causing laws to be extablished to prevent this stupidity.

While I hate being controlled by government. I do u know. Do people really need to have laws to prevent them from doing something so dumb.”

It is true that when there is an incident with a big lizard, or a big snake, or a venomous snake, the press goes wild. Blood and guts is what sells newspapers. However, I do not believe these incidents are the direct cause of the wave of legislation happening across the country. The fact is these incidents are rare, i.e., statistically insignificant. It is also true that TPTB (the powers that be) use these incidents to their benefit. I am talking about the animal rights crowd and organizations like PETA and HSUS. These people do not want anyone to have or to use any animal for any reason, including food. They have a ton of money, and I believe they are behind this wave of legislation, especially at the state level. Their efforts are like the water in your plumbing system. The water has a way of finding the weakest point in the system, and springing a leak. Unfortunately, some of the weakest links among animal people are monkey people, cat people, and reptile people. (Lions and tigers and bears, oh my!) We are small in numbers, generally disorganized, not unified in cause or opinions, and have little or no money. Add to this that fact that many of the various bird and turtle (wildlife) departments are opposed to private ownership of most live wild animals, and contain persons who have a personal agenda against animal people, and use their positions to promote their agenda. Bird and Turtle is into government controlling people. They would rather play cops and robbers than allow for reasonable solutions, like captive breeding. Besides, this gives their cowboys an adrenaline rush to bust somebody and makes for great press releases.
Then you have zoo and academia that are beholding to bird and turtle cops for their special permits and exemptions that join in to oppose private ownership. The future of large monitor ownership, and many other reptiles by the private sector looks bleak to me. There are herp groups that have organized and testified before bird and turtle commissions and state legislatures, and some have made progress. For the most part, they, along with the facts, are ignored. Then the politicians count votes and money, and animal people do not rate very much, if at all. If you have not already done so, check out the Herp Law and CITIES Forum to see what is happening in Texas. There are a lot of good people making dramatic efforts to reverse a recent law that prohibits road collecting and right of way collecting. It will be very interesting to see how this one plays out.

FR quote: But your right, its often a case of defending poor choices. Simply put, there are folks capable of supporting large monitors, lots in reality, and those not capable due to current conditions(no space) and they cannot figure that simple problem out.

FR, your discussion about PH (poor husbandry) and BH (basic husbandry) is, in my opinion, right on. It is also a great teaching and communication tool. My take on a similar observation comes from a statement made by Clint Eastwood as Dirty Harry in Magnum Force, 1973: “A man’s got to know his limitations!” By this I mean a person needs to ask themselves, what type of reptile keeper am I? Am I a keeper at all? Reptile keepers run the scale from incompetent and uncaring to extraordinary. Which am I? Do I love the work, the cleaning and feeding and fixing, or would I rather dig a ditch? Do I do well with 10, 20, or 100 animals, and then one more becomes to many? Do I know how many is enough? Some people have the passion, but they are not keepers. Is it about the animals, or is it about my needs? I believe knowing yourself, knowing who you are, and knowing your limitations is important to your success, especially long term.

FR quote: Surely ackies and other odatria can be kept very successfully in a bedroom(been there and done that) Ackies are a good species, storrs even better if space is a limitation, Gilleni is even better, Stripetails even better. Kings even better then that. Brevis even better.

I agree, and I am again tempted, but I just read something about a man’s got to know his limitations. I will add to that. If a man does not know his limitations, his wife does!

Thank yu for the chance to rant.

AG Bull