Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey there -
I've been bouncing around between the Snakes - what kind, Hybrid, and Pine/Bull/Gopher Snakes forums, and I just got bounced here!

I have a snake that was sold to a friend of a friend as a Ball Python of all things. It's some type of hybrid, and I'm trying to find out what. I've got all kinds of suggestions between Elaphe and Pitouphis and lots of combinations between them. Any help is greatly appreciated in I.D.'ing this guy. Thanks!
Mike

>>It's some type of hybrid, and I'm trying to find out what. I've got all kinds of suggestions between Elaphe and Pitouphis and lots of combinations between them. Any help is greatly appreciated in I.D.'ing this guy.

Looks like a greenish rat snake to me. In the wild they are natural intergrades of a black and yellow rat snake. Your snake looks like a captive produced version.

Of course you will also see "yellow rats" on the classifieds that look identical to your snake... LOL.

dg

Greenish Ratsnakes are varying shades of green, hence the word 'greenish'. This one obviously isn't green, therefore it's not a Greenish Ratsnake. I don't see anything that distinctively reminds me of Pituophis, but then again, contrary to popular believe, except for the divided prefrontals Ratsnakes and Gophersnakes aren't that distinct to begin with.

If it's a captive born animal, it really could be anything. If it's caught from the wild however, it most likely is one of those Black / Yellow intergrades from the northwest part of Georgia or the southwest part of South Carolina. Whatever it is, I think the Black Ratsnake is at least part of the mix.

Hope this helps,

Herman.

>>Greenish Ratsnakes are varying shades of green, hence the word 'greenish'. This one obviously isn't green, therefore it's not a Greenish Ratsnake.

Look again, that snake is a greenish rat snake. Perhaps its a man made cross, but its a greenish.

>>If it's caught from the wild however, it most likely is one of those Black / Yellow intergrades from the northwest part of Georgia or the southwest part of South Carolina.

What the hell do you think a greenish rat snake is? Its a black/yellow intergrade! Sheesh. How can you say in one sentence that its not a greenish and then in another say its a black/yellow intergrade?

dg

That's an easy one. The Greenish Ratsnake is not an intergrade, but merely a geographical variant of the Yellow Ratsnake, restricted to the northern most part of it's range in North Carolina. It's a green snake with thick black lines. Not some drab shade of olive, but green. Not blotched, but striped. I can see where all the confusion comes from, as a lot of people call just about any Black / Yellow intergrade a Greenish Ratsnake, which is totally and utterly wrong. So there are no Greenish Ratsnakes in Georgia, just like there are no Blue Beauties in Vietnam. You of all people should know that.

Are you just making this up as you go along? Do you have even one reliable source that suggests this to be the case? I have read dozens of posts, books, articles etc. which have discussed the "greenish" ratsnake, and this is the first time I have seen anyone suggest what you are saying. It honestly sounds like you are attempting to state your opinion of what something "should" be called as fact.

Well then, perhaps you should look into K.D. Schulz's monograph on ratsnakes. Very interesting remarks on the Yellow Ratsnake. Would that source be reliable enough for you?

I have been breeding North Carolina Greenish Ratsnakes for several years now. It's a beautiful variant of the Yellow Ratsnake, and it breaks my heart every times these beautiful creatures are lumped together with these drab colored intergrades you (and, admittedly, many others) call 'Greenish Ratsnakes'. To me that's just as ignorant as designating all Eastern Kingsnake / Florida Kingsnake intergrades as Chipola River Kingsnakes.

I hope you and Dwight don't take this thing too personal, cause it really isn't. Also, I feel this issue is getting blown out of proportion, to the point of where it gets ridiculous. A trivial name of a doubtful entity isn't something to get angry about. If any of my fellow taxonomists were reading this thread, they'd be making fun of us, and they would be right.

First you say it's not a greenish ratsnake because no green. Then you suggest that it may be a black/yellow intergrade (which is what Dwight says it is). And, of course, the black/yellow intergrade IS the "greenish" ratsnake. You may be thinking of the green rat, a different story altogether.

That said, it's amazing the amount of variation in the "greenish" rat. Many, if not most, have little or no greenish in them at all. I actually have one that is quite green (I could see the greenish hues in it as a baby when I bought it, and it has colored up really nice).

I was going to suggest the possibility of a black/texas rat intergrade on this one, but if Dwight says it's greenish, I'm likely to go with his call. Duffy

Thank you Duffy for the vote of confidence! I'm pretty sure its a greenish, but it could also have some everglades rat in the mix as well. Some of the normal phase "bubblegum" obsoleta (black/yellow/glades) also resemble the snake in the photo. The normals aren't nearly as common as the amelanistic versions.

dg

My first thought was greenish but almost every greenish I've seen expresses some amout usually a lot of striping and this one doesn't have any. Have you seen different?

Yeah, yeah, anyone contradicting Dwight must be wrong, as Dwight is alway right... Check out my reply to his reply on my reply, and then you'll see I certainly am not contradicting myself. But off course it's all a matter of definition. You and Dwight believe all Black / Yellow intergrades should be called Greenish Ratsnakes. I don't agree with that. I think the name should be restricted to the ratsnakes of the northern coastal plains of North Carolina, as these snakes are truly green, quite unlike those drab colored intergrades. Perhaps 'Uglyish Muttsnakes' would be a better name for those, LOL.

PS. I'm not here to crap on you guys. I just like a good discussion once in a while.

Just thought I'd toss in 2 Hyde County greenish rats and the bottom is a Sand Hills black/yellow intergrade result. #3 looks mostly like a yellow to me. Barely any black influence in it if I say so. The middle picture resembles the Sand Hills phenotype more than the top picture, which by the way I REALLY like. It's got that coachwhip blend of colors from front to back going on. Neat!

I see full blown black rats in Hyde, and full-on weird green thingies in Hyde too.

I'm not sure I have a strong opinion on the greenish phenomenon. Maybe the first generation of black/yellow mixes dont look like a greenish, but what about 3-4 generations down the line. Maybe it changes by then? I'm not willing to breed just to find out what's up....

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Tom

"The more people I meet, the more I like my snakes"

Nice to get a positive reply for a change. Great pictures, the one on #3 is what I call a true Greenish Ratsnake.

You write:

That's an easy one. The Greenish Ratsnake is not an intergrade, but merely a geographical variant of the Yellow Ratsnake, restricted to the northern most part of it's range in North Carolina. It's a green snake with thick black lines. Not some drab shade of olive, but green. Not blotched, but striped. I can see where all the confusion comes from, as a lot of people call just about any Black / Yellow intergrade a Greenish Ratsnake, which is totally and utterly wrong. So there are no Greenish Ratsnakes in Georgia, just like there are no Blue Beauties in Vietnam. You of all people should know that.

Then Guttersnacks posts a picture (#3) telling everyone its an intergrade and you call it a greenish rat? What gives? It really does sound like your making this stuff up!!!!

Explain.

My position was and still is, that what should be called 'Greenish Ratsnakes', are in fact greenish colored Yellow Ratsnakes from the northern part of it's range, the coastal plains of North Carolina. So this would make the animal on picture #3 a 'true' Greenish Ratsnake, and the other ones (#1 and #2) would then be Black / Greenish intergrades as a logical consequence.

Actually, I don't even have a problem with the idea of including the animals on picture #1 and #2 within the concept of the 'Greenish Ratsnake'. The locality is right, the color is right, so allrighty then. If not selected against, genes can and will introgress for hundreds of miles, so it's impossible to draw a line anyway. What I have commented on, was the use of the word 'Greenish Ratsnake' to designate ANY Black / Yellow intergrade, regardless of locality or coloration.

Feel free to disagree with me on this, fair play is all I'm asking for.

I'm just gonna repost what you wrote:

It's a green snake with thick black lines. Not some drab shade of olive, but green. Not blotched, but striped. I can see where all the confusion comes from, as a lot of people call just about any Black / Yellow intergrade a Greenish Ratsnake, which is totally and utterly wrong.

Actually, I don't even have a problem with the idea of including the animals on picture #1 and #2 within the concept of the 'Greenish Ratsnake'. The locality is right, the color is right, so allrighty then.

Pics 1 & 2 are exactly what you describe as NOT being a greenish ratsnake!!!!

I know that. I temporarily went along with something I don't actually believe in, only for the sake of argument. I think the point I was trying to make by doing so is pretty clear.

I still don't understand how this way of reasoning results in "making things up". Could you elaborate on that?

First you make a statement that greenish rats are not drab but green with stripes. Then you contradict yourself and say that the drab blotched snakes are greenish rats. After this you say you went along with something you don't believe. After all this if your going to agree with something you don't believe how can anyone believe you!!Just go back and read what you wrote. I will not post again because you are talking in circles.

Could you please share with me where you got your facts about greenish rats? I'm not doubting you, but this is the first time I have ever heard this school of thought. There are lots of greenish rats where I live in Northeastern South Carolina, but very few yellows or blacks.

Thanks,
Jim

Here is a pic of the typical representative of a greenish rat snake from my area in Northeastern South Carolina. Other variants have a square design along the saddle as well as the stripes. The shades of green vary as well from a dark olive drab to something closer to a lime green. They seem to darken with age, though.

Well, that's exactly what I call a Greenish Ratsnake too, but from where I stand, it's a greenish colored Yellow Ratsnake, and the blotched morph is the intergrade.

I did not make this up myself, I actually have read this several times in herpetological literature. For instance, in K.D. Schulz's famous monograph on ratsnakes, the Greenish Ratsnake is described as a geographical variant of the Yellow Ratsnake. As Yellow Ratsnakes tend to get darker as you go north as an adaptation to a cooler climate, at the northern limit of it's range the result of this is a dark greenish colored snake. To me, that's an acceptable explanation.

Certainly, even within the striped greenish colored population there'll be some Black Ratsnake influence to some degree, and it's impossible to pinpoint where the 'pure' form ends and the intergrade begins. Hack, every Pantherophis obsoletus is an inetrgrade to some degree. In fact, aren't we all?

a geographical variant of the Yellow Ratsnake, restricted to the northern most part of it's range in North Carolina.

Here is a pic of the typical representative of a greenish rat snake from my area in Northeastern South Carolina.

Well, that's exactly what I call a Greenish Ratsnake too,...

Round and Round where it stops nobody knows!!!

That makes sense. Do you think that the representatives I see here that share both the stripes and the square dorsal pattern are more likely a true intergrade? After all Conant describes the yellow rat as having four dark lines on a yellow to olive background. I recently caught what I believe to be a true yellow rat, but it is the first one I have seen in a number of years. I haven't seen a black rat here in a long time.

"That makes sense."

Thank you.

"Do you think that the representatives I see here that share both the stripes and the square dorsal pattern are more likely a true intergrade? After all Conant describes the yellow rat as having four dark lines on a yellow to olive background."

Bingo.

"I recently caught what I believe to be a true yellow rat, but it is the first one I have seen in a number of years. I haven't seen a black rat here in a long time."

This very same pattern has actually been described by several sources. It could be a case of 'hybrid superiority', meaning the intergrade's unique genetic composition is favoured by natural selection, enabling it to expand it's range and outcompete the taxa which gave rise to it. Just an educated guess, I'm just presenting this as a possibility.

Ya know, to continue a thought about the un-blacks I see in NE coastal NC, it's also worth mentioning that the corn snakes there have a lot of striping on them too. I used to think that somehow this was more quadrivittatta influence into the gene pool as well, but after thinking about it a while.....I guess I'm not so sure. The black-ish rats have the striping, the corns have the striping, and yet nothing in the area even closely resembles a yellow rat snake.
So, maybe the striping is something else. Maybe the striping is a naturaly selected trait for the area, and has no ties to the yellow populations at all.
Hmmmm. Thinking out loud here really... I'll have to chew on that a while.
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Tom

"The more people I meet, the more I like my snakes"

Another interesting "twist" to your area, Tom, NE coastal NC, is if you go just far enough inland and just far enough north and south, the Black Rats fit the old "E. o. parallela" description (for the outer banks) that "tried" to exist for a moment in time in the ‘80s!!!
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Regards, Bill McGighan

I've never heard of that which you refer to. I assume it was some kind of striped black rat? The specie designation would seem to hint at that
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Tom

"The more people I meet, the more I like my snakes"

It was proposed as a subspecies years ago from the outer banks.
As you know, west of Albamarle Sound the "Greenish Rats" are light. These were supposed to be dark gray with stripes.
.
It was shot down as a subspecies. I don't know if any mtDNA studies have been done.
As I mentioned, you can find animals that look the same on the mainland.

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Regards, Bill McGighan

I caught one in the early 90's at Billy Mitchell Airport by Hatteras. It looked just like the ratsnakes from the mainland. My friend and I layed a bunch of sucker boards & tin there in the late 80's. The ratsnake was the only thing we ever got there.

It wasn't about contradicting Dwight. You did, indeed, contradict YOURSELF. It doesn't matter what YOU "think" they "should" be called. The intergrade of the black rat and yellow rat IS openly and commonly called "greenish" whether it is greenish or not. Yes, I agree, many (most?) are ugly-ish intergrades. Little or no green. But anyone who has been paying attention understands that this IS what they are being called. MY greenish rat IS greenish, as I said. She's a S. Carolina locale, and actually a very pretty (almost chartreuse) snake. Did I spell chartreuse right? ?????

I don't even know what 'chartreuse' means, LOL.

At least we agree that we disagree. I'll respect anyones opinion, as long as discussion is based on arguments.

>>Yeah, yeah, anyone contradicting Dwight must be wrong, as Dwight is alway right... Check out my reply to his reply on my reply, and then you'll see I certainly am not contradicting myself. But off course it's all a matter of definition. You and Dwight believe all Black / Yellow intergrades should be called Greenish Ratsnakes. I don't agree with that. I think the name should be restricted to the ratsnakes of the northern coastal plains of North Carolina, as these snakes are truly green, quite unlike those drab colored intergrades. Perhaps 'Uglyish Muttsnakes' would be a better name for those, LOL.
>>
>>PS. I'm not here to crap on you guys. I just like a good discussion once in a while.

Just because YOU don't think they should all be called "greenish" rats does not change the fact that black/yellow intergrades are called greenish rat snakes.
That's just the way it is.
Not all creamsicles (emoryi/corn amels) have that perfect cream look but they are still called creamsicles.
It is as much to identify the mix as it is the color.
There are too many names out there that don't fit perfectly but like I said earlier, just because YOU don't think they are right that doesn't change anything.
Hell, I think the stupidest name in the hobby is a damn anery bloodred but I can't change it just because I don't like it.
And you can't change the fact that the black/yellow intergrade is called the "greenish" rat just because YOU don't like it.
sorry.
I find it interesting that started out stating it as fact and once you were put on the spot to show some evidence you come back with "I think" and "its a matter of definition"
oh well
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

Look, it's just a trivial name we're discussing here, nothing more. Trivial names are, by definition, a reflection of opinion. By no means I want to force my opinion through anyones throat, but sometimes I get to swallow an opinion I don't agree with, so I react to it. I just happen to disagree with a couple of guys on this forum, and that's all there is to it. Nothing personal.

My man made (by Dwight) greenish rats are not really that green. In fact one is pumpkin orange between the saddles. I think I remember you fighting with me about this before. Your opinion is different than the majority on what a greenish is. BTW, one of my three (all Dwights) is indeed quite green. Guess I will have to find picts of them too.
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Sonya

I'm not mean. You're just a sissy.
Happy Bunny

If you could post some pics for further comparison, that would be great!

>>If you could post some pics for further comparison, that would be great!

Here are a couple of overalls that may not help much. Too late to go wake up the room to get more.

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Sonya

I'm not mean. You're just a sissy.
Happy Bunny

That first one's beautiful! The second one reminds me alot of mine in the head/neck area. Thanks
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"He who would stifle debate rather than engage in it, does so at the expense of his integrity and credibility"

Mike Curtin

"My man made (by Dwight) greenish rats are not really that green. In fact one is pumpkin orange between the saddles."

If it's a "man made" crossbreed, then by definition it's not an intergrade. The word intergrade is reserved specifically to define specimens which are the product of secondary contact between two different taxa in nature, NOT captivity. I'm quite sure that's not something I "just made up". So if a Greenish Ratsnake is indeed a Black / Yellow intergrade, then as a logical consequence your "man made" crossbreed should not be called a Greenish Ratsnake. It can't be both.

"I think I remember you fighting with me about this before."

I don't remember, sorry about that. But then again, I do post quite a lot, so maybe I just forgot.

"Your opinion is different than the majority on what a greenish is."

It certainly is. I just found out the hard way, LOL.

Nice animals BTW. I especially like the first one.

You said....
If it's a "man made" crossbreed, then by definition it's not an intergrade. The word intergrade is reserved specifically to define specimens which are the product of secondary contact between two different taxa in nature, NOT captivity.

I'm not sure I agree there. What if they are captive animals that get out, breed in your backyard and then you find them and bring them indoors again? or if they are wild animals that are caught, stuck in a cage together, breed and then are released and the offspring are born into the wild? What about animals that are kept in an outdoor enclosed pen with lots of room to roam freely, but still contained by a wall? There are many areas of grey there.
Why cant the term intergrade just be used to define a mix of different species intermingling reproductively. You can differentiate between "natural intergrades" and "captive bred intergrades" with that wording. To me it's about the result, not the geographic location.
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Tom

"The more people I meet, the more I like my snakes"

"...There are many areas of grey there."

Point taken!

"Why cant the term intergrade just be used to define a mix of different species intermingling reproductively. You can differentiate between "natural intergrades" and "captive bred intergrades" with that wording."

Allright with me, as long as the distinction is made explicitely and used consistently. But then again, as far as I know I don't have any autority on the meaning of words, LOL.

"To me it's about the result, not the geographic location."

Well, it's both, actually. An intergrade is the product of both population dynamics AND natural selection. For instance, breeding a Yellow Ratsnake to a Grey Ratsnake will not get you Gulf Hammock Ratsnake. You see what I'm getting at?

"An intergrade is the product of both population dynamics AND natural selection. For instance, breeding a Yellow Ratsnake to a Grey Ratsnake will not get you Gulf Hammock Ratsnake. You see what I'm getting at?"

I sure dont, sorry. Please elaborate a bit more. Intra-population, or Inter-population dynamics? I totally agree that to make a Gulf Hammock, you dont mix a yellow and a grey ratsnake. You need two Gulf Hammocks to do that. I'm not sure what you mean by that though, or why you chose that to illustrate your point. Also, if you could just clarify what you mean by Population Dynamics, I'm good on the Natural Selection part, or we should at least see reasonably closely eye to eye on that topic I hope.

On that note.....here's a picture to keep things fun

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Tom

"The more people I meet, the more I like my snakes"

"Please elaborate a bit more. Intra-population, or Inter-population dynamics?"

Both, but it's the inter-population dynamics which occassionally results in secundairy contact.

"I totally agree that to make a Gulf Hammock, you dont mix a yellow and a grey ratsnake. You need two Gulf Hammocks to do that. I'm not sure what you mean by that though, or why you chose that to illustrate your point."

You just did a fine job explaining a significant part of the point I was trying to make. It's kind of a long story, that's why I took a shortcut with the example of the Gulf Hammock Ratsnake. The thing is, when you breed two Gulf Hammocks, you'll get Gulf Hammocks. When you breed Grey to Yellow, you'll get a crossbreed only remotely similar to a Gulf Hammock, but not quite the same. When you breed these F1 crossbreeds together, you'll get lots of different stuff, but still no Gulf Hammocks. Bottom line: Intergrades breed true, man made crossbreeds don't. Why? Because natural selection gets to play an interesting role when secundairy contact becomes established. Some genes will be selected against, resulting in a sharp morphometrical cline, often positioned at a density through. Other genes on the other hand are neutral or will actually be favoured by natural selection, enabling it to introgress for hundreds of miles from one taxon into the other. The result is a more transient morphometrical cline, one taxon gradually transforming into the other, and vice versa. I believe the word intergrade actually refers to the morphometrical gradient associated with it.

"Also, if you could just clarify what you mean by Population Dynamics, I'm good on the Natural Selection part, or we should at least see reasonably closely eye to eye on that topic I hope."

Population Dynamics means a lot of things, including stuff like dispersal, mortality, reproduction rates, etc. In some cases, these parameters result in secundairy contact and intergradation. I think you get the picture. We're cool on the Natural Selection part.

"On that note.....here's a picture to keep things fun"

Good call. I was missing the fun part lately.

First, all of this is congecture as only the breederknows for sure.

Secondly, no offense, but I think both Herman and Dwight are wrong here. I have seen 100's of Yellow/Black integrades here in the coastal plain of SC. Funny thing is, I have only seen two snakes I would classify as yellow rats and only maybe 4-5 black rats. Almost everything I see is olive with brown stripes with a few exceptions of some truly nice looking greenish colored rat snakes distributing both blotches and stripes or one or the other. I just think they are surviving and out breeding the nominate sub species that created them. But who am I to say.

As far as the snake in question, it looks to have Fox snake influence in it to me, this is probably why some folks are guessing pituophis as they closely resemble. So my guess would be a fox snake x black rat (likely eastern fox snake due to coloration).

Just my 2 cents and that is all it is worth probably

all the replies before posting. I agree with you on the foxsnake influence.

Regards
John

were quick to freak about hybrids...Yeah, I know it's for a whole other reason, but you guys sure get heated. Here's another pic taken w/ a flash...hopefully it helps. He looked most like a Fox Snake to me when I first got him, but I since think otherwise. The idea of a Fox/Rat snake makes sense, but he's not really that dark to make me think it could be a Black Rat. Maybe Yellow or Texas?

Keep in mind that I'm just trying to figure out what kind of snake we adopted, and that this snake vs. any wild phenotype and which is more desirable doesn't really matter to me...he just needed a home

Thanks again for all the help!
Mike

I know what it is ... a basement science project. LOL

The last picture doesn't show any yellow like in the first photo, plus I don't see any sign of stripes. I don't think it is part yellow. I also don't see a band crossing the eyes like you see in Gray and Texas Rats. My guess is Fox cross something else, but I have no idea what.

At least none of us guessed Ball Python like the fool who sold it.

BTW, if we go with Pantherophis alleghaniensis then Eastern Black x Yellow Rat is not intergrade, but Midwest Black x Yellow is. God bless PCR and mtDNA.

I posted that picture hoping the flash would help show the pattern and color a little better. Problem here is the flash washes out the yellow, so when you see JCP ads saying the flash washed out the yellow, it's true. There were times in the past I doubted that resoning behind "drab" snakes.

Ive caught a couple this year.
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If lead paint is so deadly why do they make it so delicious?

I don't suppose you have any pics handy, do you? I'd like to compare head/face scalation specifically.

>>I don't suppose you have any pics handy, do you? I'd like to compare head/face scalation specifically.

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If lead paint is so deadly why do they make it so delicious?

n/p
Nate

Looks very similar... thanks for the reply. Mine almost looks like a cross between this and the yellow/black intergrade Sonya just posted. I guess this is a reason I'm not a big fan of hybrids.
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"He who would stifle debate rather than engage in it, does so at the expense of his integrity and credibility"

Mike Curtin

Good for you! Good for the snake, too!

foxsnake in that thing. Something about the head. But, of course, I could be 100% wrong too.

Good luck
John

Thanks for posting this Mike,
.
Usually I don’t care about hybrids but our forum needs a kick in the a$$ periodically.
.
Definite maybe on this.
.
My first cursory guess would be a Yellow RS / Pit cross.
How is the anal plate? Divided or whole?
.
2nd would be a Yellow / Texas cross.
.
At first I would agree with Fox influence, but I haven’t seen a Fox/obsolete cross yet (of course, I haven’t seen allot of things like a live white-sided snow snake yet, either!!)
.
I ruled out Greenish RS because all the Greenish I’ve seen in the wild in the Carolinas (like Dwight’s pics) have had heavy stripes.

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Regards, Bill McGighan

I don't know how I forgot such an important piece of information. The anal plate is divided, which is one of the things that led me think it was a Fox snake.

Certainly divided anal throws us back to the rat snake camp...
I do remember examining at a pair of litter siblings in a pet shop in MD in the '80s that were Yellow/Bull crosses. They were both 6 feet or better. The male had a single anal - - the female had a divided anal! They were also greenish yellow and stripes were almost absent.
.
My first impression was also some Fox genes in there because of the head. My caution to this is that there seems to be some healed stubbing of the head that you see often in captive Pits and Rats that have been kept in containment that they tried very hard to "nose" out of.
I've seen this commonly in adult, wild-caught Foxes that were confined.
.
Anyway you wrap it, it’s an interesting animal and provided some - uh - provocative - uh - interesting - uh - emotional discussion. LOL
.
I guess my question to you good forum folk is:
Have any of you out there seen a Fox cross with anything else, other than East and West?
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Regards, Bill McGighan

"I ruled out Greenish RS because all the Greenish I’ve seen in the wild in the Carolinas (like Dwight’s pics) have had heavy stripes."
.
Should have been:
"I ruled out Greenish RS because all the Greenish I’ve seen in the wild in the Carolinas (like Guttersnacks' pics) have had heavy stripes."
.
Sorry
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Regards, Bill McGighan

.
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Regards, Bill McGighan

n/p

I did a google image searh of fox snakes and found several links of easterns that look almost exactly like that snake. By chance is this snake in shed cycle? My guess is 100% eastern fox snake.
Heres a couple pics off random websites
[IMG]http://hartley.sisd.cc/snakes/Snake/Snake1.jpg[IMG]
[IMG]http://www.bgsu.edu/departments/biology/facilities/herp/snakes/fox.JPG[IMG]
Nate

n/p

Those are a little better than the ones I found when I was initially trying to ID the snake. The original pics I saw looked similar, but w/ "cleaner" blotches. The only problem I'm having is w/ the head/mouth scalation. I can't find a good close-up, and the pics I do find don't look like it.

I posted this is the pit forum too it looks like a glossy snake a close realative of the bullsnake.

The rostal scale is not right. The fox snake has a single rostal scale and the snake pictured has several. Best example I could find is the following link.
Eastern Fox Rostal Scale

Absolutely, Camby..
It may have Fox blood in there somewhere, but not a pure Fox, vulpina or gloydi.
Very few foxes have light areas inside their blotches,
Very few foxes lean towards H shapes,
East and west have sublateral blotches often bleeding onto the scutes.
Jfirneno – John, you may need to comment on this part since you and I are some of the 5 or 6 folks breeding both east and west foxes!

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Regards, Bill McGighan

A lot of heat and very little light is being generated so far. I guess if I had the snake in hand I would start by keying it out for gloydi and vulpina. If it matches up well some may be tempted to call it a foxsnake (albeit a strange looking one). Now if it falls way outside of the scale and pattern keys then I'd say call Dr. Frankenstein and ask him if one of his experiments has escaped from the castle. Since pits and NA ratsnakes are being pulled under the same tent lately (at least by some folks) let's be kind and give this ophidian orphan the benefit of the doubt, a ratsnake membership card and official decoder ring and wish him well. But don't let him spend the night in the same room with your teenage foxsnake girls.

Regards
John

Those are some of the pics that led me to believe it may have been a fox, but with no backround in taxonomy, I was going by mostly color and pattern. Do you have any advice as to where I can find a reference book for the proper taxonomy?
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"He who would stifle debate rather than engage in it, does so at the expense of his integrity and credibility"

Mike Curtin

The reference I have at hand lists the differences between obsoleta and vulpina as follows:

species*******ventrals******subcaudals****dorsals (mid-body)

obsoleta*******218 - 258*****63 - 102******23 - 29

vulpina********190 - 218*****45 - 71*******23 - 25 (rarely 27)

I use Schulz's Monograph on Elaphe but that is a very expensive book. A good field guide like Conant's will describe what is needed in this case. As you can see there's quite a bit of overlap in these scale counts. If you're lucky it will fall at one end of the range or the other and make it simple for you. If not, oh well.

Good luck
John

"simple" would not be my prediction! LOL Thanks for the references. I'll check the scale counts and maybe pick up one or both of those books....always looking to broaden my horizons. BTW, not planning on letting him breed....If I don't know what he is, I can't pass off his offspring to anyone else. He's just here to huff, puff, and eat leftovers! Heck of a personality and feeding response!
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"He who would stifle debate rather than engage in it, does so at the expense of his integrity and credibility"

Mike Curtin

Mike:
You're welcome. If you are interested in buying the referenced books I'll provide the full titles.

"A Monograph of the Colubrid Snakes of the Genus Elaphe Fitzinger" by Klaus-Dieter Schulz.

"Reptiles and Amphibians Eastern/Central North America" by Roger Conant and Joseph T. Collins (one of the Peterson Field Guides)

Opinions on hybrids vary but I think a minimum level of responsibility is to fairly label any possible or known hybrids as such. He's an interesting looking ratsnake and I'm sure he is chock full of personality. As far as breeding, if he is a foxsnake you'll find that breeding is tricky. They need a cold winter and I have found that an extra male is helpful to spark breeding interest. The combat seems to make them amorous.

Good luck

John

Thanks John. He's one of only 3 purely "pet" snakes we have without any plans on breeding. Open up his enclosure and you'd think he wants to kill you, but after you touch him he seems to say "Oh yeah, this aint so bad!". One of the other aspects of his personality is his "musking", which he hasn't done in months - something else I forgot to mention, seeing it's been so long.

Lastly, this may not be the time or place, but I see this as a HUGE downfall of hybridization. How many sellers are the original breeders of their stock, and how many accurately represent their "Ball Pythons"? Situations like this, while great for sparking healthy debate, I feel are bad for the responsible hybrid community.
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"He who would stifle debate rather than engage in it, does so at the expense of his integrity and credibility"

Mike Curtin

If it was sold as a Ball Python then it is a ball Python.

just kidding of course

I would go with something in the fox snake camp too.

Jason

>>If it was sold as a Ball Python then it is a ball Python.
>>
>>just kidding of course
>>
>>I would go with something in the fox snake camp too.
>>
>>Jason
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If lead paint is so deadly why do they make it so delicious?

Yeah you might as well breed it to a ball python its seems like the thing to do these days. lol.

"If it was sold as a Ball Python then it is a ball Python."

A very unique one whose genetic possibilities are endless. How could I have been so naive? LOL
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"He who would stifle debate rather than engage in it, does so at the expense of his integrity and credibility"

Mike Curtin

I guess pit and T rat, what the hell!
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Todd Hughes

I was just looking through some old books and found some Texas Rat pics that also have alot of similarities (minus the stripe between the eyes). Anyone have any good pics of the wild phenotype of one?
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"He who would stifle debate rather than engage in it, does so at the expense of his integrity and credibility"

Mike Curtin

...it's a snake. Does it eat mice?
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Tom

"The more people I meet, the more I like my snakes"

mice, rats, quail, gerbils, hamsters, and chicks....but only when he's feeling picky. He's my serpentine garbage disposal!
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"He who would stifle debate rather than engage in it, does so at the expense of his integrity and credibility"

Mike Curtin

or even fox X Gopher...? Why not? If it can have ball in it then the possabilities are endless!
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-David Harrison-
.1 Snow Corn "Hope"
1. Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Chunk" (Goonies)
.1 Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Peaches"
.1 Ball Python "Rocky Ballboa" (Didn't name her!)

"Have you ever tried simply turning off the T.V., sitting down with your kids... and hitting them?"

"Mate an Everglades (orange) ratsnake to an Iowa (black with orange between the scales) ratsnake and the result will look like the copperheaded snake you have. I don't know if your snake is the product of such a cross or if it is a natural intergrade but it does not appear to be any Pituophis in it."

"Bigfoot"

Any thoughts as to the possibility of this cross?
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"He who would stifle debate rather than engage in it, does so at the expense of his integrity and credibility"

Mike Curtin

I remember Dwight already mentioned the involvement of the Everglades Ratsnake, as a possibility that is.

I don't know about that, but I guess anything is possible.