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It's been a number of years since I've personally kept any chameleons. I used to keep and breed Veiled about 10 years ago. I kept a pair of Ch. deremensis for a while as well. In any event, I find it curious that much of the methodology for keeping chameleons which has become, at least as it appears to me, dogma does not necessarily have a great deal of support behind it. There are a couple of standard methods in particular that stand out to me as being unsupported in their rationale.

The first method is the "need" chameleons have for a temperature drop at night. Why do they prefer or "need," as is often stated explicitely, for there to be a 10 F drop in temperature at night? What benefit does this give? Why should the temperature drop down below 70 F at night for chameleons to be 'happy?' I've never seen such a recommendation made for any other group of animals, much less reptiles. Of course this happens in nature, but why would we assume this is a requirement? Typhoons happen too, and hit the areas where chameleons inhabit. Should we try to recreate that? It just seems to me that there is little if any support that allowing the temperature to drop significantly at night is in any way beneficial or necessary for chameleons to be quite content.

The second methodolgy I'd like to consider is the 'requirement' that chameleons be housed in screened cages. Why do chameleons, apart from any other group of animals I've ever encountered, have some special requirement for screening? Why would a more enclosed terrarium (perhaps avoiding glass as the reflection in glass can indeed be quite stressful) be less optimal? Often some of the smaller chameleons of the genera Rhampholeon and Brookesia are indeed housed in modified glass aquaria with excellent results. Why would their larger cousins in the genera Chameleo, Furcifer and Calumma be so drastically different in their requirements? When I maintained and bred Veiled I housed them in screened cages at first, as it was common knowledge that this was the "proper" way to maintain them. I lived in MI at the time. During the warmer months of the year the screened cages worked very well. Maintaining humidity and good conditions was easy. During the winter months, however, with indoor heating it was difficult at best to maintain adequate humidity and I lost many neonates due to dehydration while using screened cages. I eventually started to use mostly-enclosed glass aquariums for neonatees during the colder months (indoor heating) and found much better success. The chameleons didn't seem to care at all that they were enclosed and in fact did much better in the warm, humid conditions. It is not at all uncommon to house chameleons in Europe in mostly enclosed glass terraria. So, why then is it considered necessary or even perhaps beneficial to strive for a screened cage? Having said all that, of course sufficient air exchange and movement is necessary to maintain healthy conditions, but if this can be accomplished with relatively little ventilation for other animals (think about dart frog husbandry which also requires high humidity--those hobbyists all tend to use mostly enclosed terraria to help maintain humidity) why then do chameleons "need" to be kept in screen cages?

Your thoughts on this are greatly appreciated.

Best,

Chris

I'm not going to reply to the first part of your post....I need to give it more thought before I comment.

But...concerning people saying that there is a requirement that chameleons be housed in screened cages...(obviously, people who live in places like Florida and California who have no air conditioning or keep their chameleons outside would use screened cages...but) for those of us who live in northerly climates, it doesn't always make sense. I have known people who make the screen cages work well...so I'm not saying that it can't be done....but glass or partially glass cages can work too.

You said..."When I maintained and bred Veiled I housed them in screened cages at first, as it was common knowledge that this was the "proper" way to maintain them"...when I first started keeping chameleons about 20 years ago, there were no screen cages so we used glass ones with screen lids....or even some with (almost)solid lids. My chameleons lived quite well in these cages....many of them for longer than it was expected they could live at that time.

Screen cages didn't make sense to me to be used in northern climates when they did come out...the humidity was hard to maintain (as you said) without ruining my house and the chameleon spent most of its time under the basking light trying to keep warm. I would hear of many who covered several sides of the cage with plastic to keep the humidity in...not much different than having glass sides, IMHO....except that it could be removed for the summer months.

You said..."I eventually started to use mostly-enclosed glass aquariums for neonatees during the colder months (indoor heating) and found much better success"...I still haven't switched from using aquariums with screen lids for neonates.

You said..."It is not at all uncommon to house chameleons in Europe in mostly enclosed glass terraria"...another fact that I have mentioned many times to those who think screen is the only option.

You said.."sufficient air exchange and movement is necessary to maintain healthy conditions"...I'm sure that there needs to be some airflow...but its also a case of not allowing bacteria or fungus to build up that is more important. I place the basking light on one side of the cage...to me this should create some airflow....after all, hot air rises. I have never had a problem with either when using glass cages....I have never had a chameleon develop a respiratory infection either.

The cages I have used for adult arboreal chameleons for the last few years have the lid and front screen...and they seem to do well. I have kept veileds, deremensis, C. chamaeleons, dwarf Jackson's, Fischer's, etc....even R. brevicaudatus like this....and they seem to do well.

Just my 2 cents worth.....

Temp drops are necessary for long term survival of some species.

Without it, montane species never truly "shut down" their metabolic processes, and as a result, live much MUCH shorer lives.

With deremensis, I've learned, this is crucial. They need to shut down, especially for the winter. Without a 'hibernation" of sorts, they retain fat and die. They need to use up that fat in a bit of a fasting period during the cool months, else they develop massive clutches, die egg bound, or just from liver failure.

It's a metabolic "need."

Cold-blooded animals last longer if you put them in the refrigerator when you're not using them.

Cycling temperature to mimic seasons to induce breeding behavior is very, very different from a chameleon "needing" a temperature drop at night. Species that experience significant seasonal variation in temperature (or rainfall, as is more often a cue near the equator) may indeed need some replication of these seasonal differences to get them physically prepared to breed, but that has nothing to do with whether or not the temperature drops at night during the warmer months of the year.

"Cold-blooded animals last longer if you put them in the refrigerator when you're not using them."

No, ectotherms live longest and do best metabolically at the temperatures they have evolved to live in. The temperatures that are metabolically optimal can vary depending on what is going on metabolically with the animal though. For example, gravid reptiles often maintain higher body temperatures, especially in the area of the reproductive tract, as compared to non-gravid females. Those that are digesting food often maintain higher temps as well. Many hot-weather adapted reptiles (e.g., Uromastyx spp.) maintain higher operating temperatues than either mammals or birds. Some arctic fish, used to a constant temp. of -1.8 C will die of heat stress if you warm them up to ~40 F.

Besides this, reptiles are very good at behavioral thermoregulation. A Bradypodion sp. (I forget which) was documented to select asphalt and rocks on which to sleep and in so doing maintained body temps ~3.5 C higher than ambient at night. I still see no reason to think that a temperature drop at night of "at least 10 F" as is recommended is in any way necessary or beneficial to a chameleon.

Chris

Thanks. Yes, much agreed. I've known of many, many folks that buy screen cages, so as to have air-flow, only to wrap most of the cage in plastic sheeting to give them any chance of maintaining humidity. It just seems to me that so much (most?) of the methodology that is recommended to hobbyists as "required" is based on nothing but hearsay. People did X, Y, and Z years ago and succeded in keeping chameleons alive when other people had failed therefore X, Y, and Z is required in every situation. Perhaps the reasons for success had nothing to do with the methodology used (sreen cages, temperature drop, etc.) and everything to do with the actual conditions the chameleons were provided. Sure, a screen cage in Florida or southern California makes a lot of sense when maintaining warm-adapted chameleons outside. Screen makes sense when keeping anything outside though... A hobbyist in the northern half of the country, or in most of Europe, or any other temperate climate is not going to be able to provide the same sorts of environmental conditions using a screen cage as someone in a warmer, more humid climate. The key to succes is not the methodolgy used to achieve a set of environmental conditions, but the degree to which a person can create those conditions... Or at least so it would seem to me.

Best,

Chris

Most of my enclosures are neither screen nor glass, and they are living happy, healthy, long lives.
Its the temperatures, humidity, sight lines, toe/tail friendliness, etc that are most important.
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Sandra
BC Canada

Much agreed :-D

Cheers,

Chris

A big part of this "dogma" you describe has to do with the intended audience (and actually the first definition of dogma in Webster's states "something held as an established OPINION". Telling newbies that they probably can't successfully maintain a cham in a glass fish tank with one single constant temp day and night (maintained by visible lights or a UTH) is a responsible and conservative approach for a forum or caresheet to give. There are many other reptile caresheets that suggest temp ranges day and night in addition to chams. We all know that the MAJORITY of chams set up in these conditions fare very poorly, especially by inexperienced keepers who won't even know the cham is dying. What we are trying to explain is that chams are really not suited to the same setup a terrestrial lizard or a snake is in many ways. They need space, they are sensitive to air quality and temperature, they are sensitive to visible light at night, and that you can't expect one to thrive in the typical fish tank dragged in from the garage. If this newbie really gets into the hobby (as all of us did) and maintains many chams over time and discovers that the dogma can be played around with there is nothing wrong with that. Dogma is not law. Most of us have done it including yourself. Look at the fairly common idea of draping a screen cage in plastic to hold in humidity...it does decrease air flow and probably levels out the temp range a bit which seems to defeat the purpose of the screen cage. At least there is the ability to open that cage to air if needed whereas a tank isn't that adjustable. I'm sure my cages don't reach that 10 degree temp drop every night of the year and the chams are OK. Some chams don't seem to care about the temp range (such as deremensis), but a 10 degree drop is safe for most species that are more sensitive. Over time a static temp maintained by the usual heat sources will either dry the cham out too often, and if the setup is that rigid there are probably going to be bacterial and fungal problems too.

My two cents on screen caging- WHY NOT? Lightweight- easy to carry inside to outside. Easy to clean. Easy to reach in so you don't have to pull an arial assult on your cham. You can take them apart. AND......you can build them yourself, inexpensively. It's a no brainer to me, IMHO.
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1.1 ambilobe panther chameleon
0.0.2 auratus pdf's

Because, as I've pointed out, sometimes this type of caging is subpar at best for providing the right conditions to the animals.

Chris

Heres an interesting addition:

Deremensis don't seem to care. I've kept them for years without a significant drop. then they die. I've had 7 of them over the years die, strangely, after a few weeks of doing nothing. Over and over, this has happened. I had misting systems installed, I lowered food intake (even more), regardless, they died after 2-3 years in captivity, with grossly fattened fat stores and marbled livers. All females were swollen full with developing eggs.

After speaking with Josh Mease on this matter, I learned that the same problems were happening in Tanzania, at MBT farms. They brought deremensis down from the mountains, to the lower elevations of their Arusha farm. the animals were ok for a while, but without nightly drops, and without a winter cool down, they just don't live long. If what Josh said was true, Joe Beraducci has several 10 year old deremensis up there, in the mountains.

My females, in the past, always had died with 30-40 eggs developing, massive fat pads, and marbled livers - despite starving for around a month prior to death.

Now that I'm living in the mountains, my animals get a 10-30 degree drop at night. This spring, I had to feed some very ravenous animals to keep their weight up. My female laid 20 eggs. And I have NO fat deremensis. In the past, I coudln't keep them lean. Suckers just gained weight on the bare minimum.

I think they're burning calories in the thermoregulatory process (if thats' even a word), sorta like partially-endothermic animals.

My deremensis used to go on these hunger strikes - for weeks at a time. It'd drive me nuts. Now, since moving here, I've not had one refuse food, and not had one get fat.

Eric A

It's a generalization, but in my experience, chameleons live longer with a temp drop.

But please just consider all the other factors that are different besides whether the temperature drops at night. Arusha gets much hotter and drier than where Ch. deremensis live. That has got to be taxing on them metabolically. It also does not get as much seasonality, potentially messing up the animals behaviorally.

You note that your animals are doing better since you moved. Consider that so many factors may be different, none of which were measured or assessed independently. Perhaps the temp. drop at night is really rather unimportant during the warm parts of the year (e.g., 70 F is just as good as 60 or 50 or 40 F) and the big difference is the daily max. temp, or the humidity, or the cycling which allows for normal sexual behavior and development, or...so many other factors.

Chris

Well, I must agree that the majority of chameleons (as well as most other animals, actually) that come into the hands of the unwitting and unprepared usually fair very poorly indeed. Yes, a chameleon plopped in an aquarium with a dish of water and either no heat lamp or an overaggressive heat lamp from which there is no retreat and allowed to desicate is, well, doomed. But was this death the result of using a more enclosed terrarium? No, it was due to improper husbandry. If the chameleon had been housed in a screen cage the result would have been the same. I can attest that this happens in pet stores all the time. I don't care to recall the number of dying chameleons I've seen in pet stores (that didn't know what they were doing) housed in screen cages.

The design of the cage does not predetermine success or failure, but the design of the cage can certainly help things along, one way or the other.

Consider that many of the chameleons from true rain forests or seasonally wet forests see environmental conditions much like those encountered by dart frogs (Dendrobates spp., Phyllobates spp., etc.). Folks that are very successful with these frogs provide some ventilation and allow some air movement, but largely their terraria are enclosed to hold in humidity. The chances of success with animals like these would be much poorer in screened cages due to an inability to provide appropriate conditions, unless perhaps the cages were in a greenhouse. Many species of prized orchids also grow in these same mountains, and in similar climates. Folks that are serious about growing orchids do so in greenhouses--large, enclosed vivariums, essentially. Yes, for some species of chameleon that are being raised in areas where the ambient conditions are similar to their needs will do just fine in screen cages--the ambient conditions are what they need. Most chameleons, however, are maintained in climates much different from the ones to which they are native--either hotter or colder or wetter or dryer or odd combinations of the above. To provide approrpiate conditions to these animals, screen becomes a handicap, not a crutch. For many chameleons, especially those from wetter habitats, more enclosed vivaria that can hold in the humidity better probably would IMPROVE success for a lot of hobbyists.

As I've pointed out, folks do this in Europe and no one thinks twice about it. Many US hobbyists do this thinking that they are somehow 'getting away' with something, or approaching things in the 'wrong' way. If it's good for Rhampholeon, and Brookesia and all the other fauna found in the same sorts of habitat, why is it wrong for Chameleo or Furcifer or Calumma, etc.? That just doesn't make sense to me.

In terms of providing a proper temperatures gradient--I think you'd be surprised how easy it is to do in a relatiely enclosed cage. I used to work with some monitor lizards and Uromastyx spp. which require the ability to get very hot but also have a cool retreat. With very little effort on my part I was able to easily provide basking sites in the neighborhood of 130 F and cooler temperatures on the other side of the enclosure in the 70's and all in the space of a couple feet. This can easily be accomplished for chameleons as well. Of course, only hot-climate chameleons (Veiled, Oustelet's, Verrucosus, etc.) would need that kind of range. For most species a much more moderate range would be desirable and is easily achievable all in a moderately ventilated enclosure that holds humidity well.

In fact, a major problem with screen cages is that many reptiles often cannot maintain their temperature sufficienty. It is, to them, "cold" everywhere but under their basking lamp so they bask, and bask, and bask and get ever closer until they burn themselves because if they dare venture away from that bulb they quickly lose heat and fall to an unacceptable operating temp. More enclosed vivaria allow a more gradual temp. gradient so that the animals do not have to make the choice of "hot and burning" or "too cold" and instead can behaviorally thermoregulate as they are designed to.

I really truly believe that we are all doing ourselves and new hobbyists a disservice by telling them and ourselves that screen cages are or should be "the standard" for housing chameleons (or anything else for that matter). Screen cages can be hugely advantageous in the right application, or utterly detrimental with the wrong application. Of course, this is never discussed. We are simply told and tell each other that chameleons should be kept in screen cages because, well, we've all been saying it for so long it's hard to start rethinking things now....

Perhaps we should start rethinking.

Best,

Chris

Well, I guess this makes me wonder just why all these chams being kept in the wrong conditions (screen cages) are thriving and breeding to several generations for many different keepers. I am not arguing with your ideas at all. If you have setups that work for your animals in your particular location I'm glad. At the bottom, all I can really do is speak to the chams I've kept myself. They were all kept in screen cages or free ranged in a room. They lived for years. I have not bred chams so can't claim any expertise on that.

But that is preciesly the point, using screened cages cannot be called either "right" or "wrong" in terms of the ease of providing good conditions without context. If I were keeping and breeding F. pardalis in south Florida I'd use outdoor screen cages during the warmer months and either move them to a greenhouse or make some other accomodations during the cooler months. On the other hand, if I were trying to maintain and breed Ch. deremensis or Ch. quardricornis in south Florida I'd probably keep them indoors or in a greenhouse with air conditioning. A free-air habitat makes sense for F. ousteleti in southern California, but it doesn't make much sense for C. parsonii, for example. In Michigan, where I used to live, most hotter climate adapted chameleons would have done well outdoors or with screening a few months a year, but not more than that. Beyond that and they really would do better in a more climate controlled area. Chameleons from higher elevations would be about the same--doing well outside or in screened cages during early and late summer (a bit too hot for them during mid-summer) but would need other accomodations during the rest of the year.

Screen cages allow the ambient environment to greatly and directly dictate the envrionment inside the cages. If the chameleons are being kept in a climate similar to their own (or close enough) then this is fine and I see no problem at all. If, however, the chameleons need different environmental conditions from what occurs in the ambient, then screen becomes and obstacle to providing the proper conditions, not a boon.

The problem is that most of us (myself included for many years) blindly recommend X, Y and Z (X being the use of screen cages) as the "proper" way to maintain these animals when really this my not always be the best way, and may be a decidely bad way to do it much of the time. It seems to me as though the hobby is still reeling from the effects of advice 20 years old. The proponents of that advice, so long ago, were convinced that the screen cages they used somehow allowed them to do things that other types of caging did not--that there was some special requirement the chameleons had for screened cages--when in reality they only requiement the chameleons had was for proper care and environmental conditions which just so happened to be coupled with screening. This never happened in Europe, and hence folks there have no compulsion to use screen cages with chameleons.

If this didn't make a big difference to the success of people trying to keep chameleons, I don't think I'd really care one way or the other, but as I've mentioned, I've seen people killing chameleons more times than I care to BECAUSE they thought that screen was the only way to go. I've seen dehydrated little chameleons (despite a constant drip) housed at the same places that were keeping and breeding dart frogs and Uroplatus spp. geckos. Some chameleons would do so, so much better and be so much easier to maintain if their husbandry were approached in much the same way as dart frogs or Uroplatus spp. geckos or so many other species. It doesn't make sense to approach animal husbandry with the methods already decided and hope to reach the goal environmental conditions. It makes much more sense to have the goals clearly in mind and adopt the methods that make it easiest to reach those goals.

Chris

I don't frequent this forum much these days but check in from time to time to see old pals and what's going on and looks like an interesting thread. I find what Chris is saying makes sense but as has been pointed out the feasibility of a new cham owner setting up a glass enclosure there is more chance of error and death than in a screened one. Granted, not all newbies are going to listen to more experienced keepers, as Carlton, Eric and kinyonga - and even I (and I am sure you, too Chris)- know all too well after many years on this forum.

I got the majority of my knowledge from these very people in my early cham days not that long ago (2003). I am using the same 2x2x4' screen cage that I bought for my first chameleon (after starting her in a smaller one for a few months). She died at 2 years of age, not due to poor housing and not important for this thread.

I live in NH with dry cold winters and yes, the cage is in a free standing 3 sided cabinet and yes, I have plastic on three sides. I even keep it up year round. I use a humidifier in the winter and sometimes in other seasons. Cyrus, my panther, has a choice of two basking spots, a free range jungle gym out of the cage, his dripper, the humidifier when he needs it, the height for gradient, plenty of foliage a relatively cool house so he gets a drop at night year round. As it begins to get cooler – even now as we have a bit of a lovely cool snap – I cover his cage with a blanket to minimize the drop and slow it down after the lights go out, I do this with my beardie as well. This may be an extra step, but hey, scooping my cats litter box takes longer and is a lot more unpleasant but I would never dream of not doing it. We take on the responsibility of an animal, we take the extra steps. Cyrus eats, he's healthy, he's active and, allow me a bit of anthropomorphizing, he is a happy cham.

Could I maintain better humidity in an enclosure with glass? Sure. Is it a feasible thing for me? No. First, I do not have the money to purchase the needed size nor could I possibly manage to get something of its size and weight up the twisted stairs in my 275 year old house. But besides the $$, why should I bother when the plastic works just as well.

So I am not questioning your reasoning, I am just saying that if a keeper has devised something that works and keeps her chameleon healthy then I think telling a new owner to use a tank is risky. That said, if there is enough support from a keeper in Canada, the UK or elsewhere and IF the new keeper is intent on paying attention and following the advice then absolutely they should be supported in using a glass enclosure. As for experienced keepers discussing it and making changes, sure, but keep in mind that 95% (or more) of the members of this and other forums are inexperienced, new owners or ones (hopefully) doing their research BEFORE they purchase their first chameleon.

Just my two bits

Btw – hi everyone!

lele

>>But that is preciesly the point, using screened cages cannot be called either "right" or "wrong" in terms of the ease of providing good conditions without context. If I were keeping and breeding F. pardalis in south Florida I'd use outdoor screen cages during the warmer months and either move them to a greenhouse or make some other accomodations during the cooler months. On the other hand, if I were trying to maintain and breed Ch. deremensis or Ch. quardricornis in south Florida I'd probably keep them indoors or in a greenhouse with air conditioning. A free-air habitat makes sense for F. ousteleti in southern California, but it doesn't make much sense for C. parsonii, for example. In Michigan, where I used to live, most hotter climate adapted chameleons would have done well outdoors or with screening a few months a year, but not more than that. Beyond that and they really would do better in a more climate controlled area. Chameleons from higher elevations would be about the same--doing well outside or in screened cages during early and late summer (a bit too hot for them during mid-summer) but would need other accomodations during the rest of the year.
>>
>>Screen cages allow the ambient environment to greatly and directly dictate the envrionment inside the cages. If the chameleons are being kept in a climate similar to their own (or close enough) then this is fine and I see no problem at all. If, however, the chameleons need different environmental conditions from what occurs in the ambient, then screen becomes and obstacle to providing the proper conditions, not a boon.
>>
>>The problem is that most of us (myself included for many years) blindly recommend X, Y and Z (X being the use of screen cages) as the "proper" way to maintain these animals when really this my not always be the best way, and may be a decidely bad way to do it much of the time. It seems to me as though the hobby is still reeling from the effects of advice 20 years old. The proponents of that advice, so long ago, were convinced that the screen cages they used somehow allowed them to do things that other types of caging did not--that there was some special requirement the chameleons had for screened cages--when in reality they only requiement the chameleons had was for proper care and environmental conditions which just so happened to be coupled with screening. This never happened in Europe, and hence folks there have no compulsion to use screen cages with chameleons.
>>
>>If this didn't make a big difference to the success of people trying to keep chameleons, I don't think I'd really care one way or the other, but as I've mentioned, I've seen people killing chameleons more times than I care to BECAUSE they thought that screen was the only way to go. I've seen dehydrated little chameleons (despite a constant drip) housed at the same places that were keeping and breeding dart frogs and Uroplatus spp. geckos. Some chameleons would do so, so much better and be so much easier to maintain if their husbandry were approached in much the same way as dart frogs or Uroplatus spp. geckos or so many other species. It doesn't make sense to approach animal husbandry with the methods already decided and hope to reach the goal environmental conditions. It makes much more sense to have the goals clearly in mind and adopt the methods that make it easiest to reach those goals.
>>
>>Chris
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Chameleon Help & Resource Info
1.0 Nosy Be Panther Chameleon - Cyrus
0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
1.1.1 Side-blotched lizards - Ana and Stan
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skippy
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh, Died 4/21/06
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha, donated to science 4/4/06
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

Hi Lele,

You said that, "I find what Chris is saying makes sense but as has been pointed out the feasibility of a new cham owner setting up a glass enclosure there is more chance of error and death than in a screened one."

Why is there more chance of "error and death" in a more enclosed (not necessarily glass) enclosure than a screen one? What I have found, and what I would argue, is that a screen cage in many climates and many situations actually makes it much more difficult to provide healthy conditions to the chameleons and therefore makes "error and death" much more likely.

"Could I maintain better humidity in an enclosure with glass? Sure. Is it a feasible thing for me? No. First, I do not have the money to purchase the needed size nor could I possibly manage to get something of its size and weight up the twisted stairs in my 275 year old house. But besides the $$, why should I bother when the plastic works just as well."

I'm not necessarily arguing for glass enclosures or aquaria as preferable (indeed, for larger enclosure and chameleons this does NOT seem like the way to go to me). An enclosure made of weather-proofed wood on most sides, perhaps with a glass or acrylic viewing pane and modest ventilation, makes a lot of sense to me for many chameleons. This would make it much easier for many people to provide appropriate humidity and an appropriate temperature gradient, more similar to what the chameleon would encounter in nature. Besides, many chameleons really do become stressed if they are able to see their reflections, making glass or other similarly reflective material a less than ideal option for some species.

I recall that, years ago, Douglas Dix was keeping Ch. quadricornis in small "family groups" in modified shower enclosures. This made it much easier to keep humidity high and provided plenty of space to the animals. He also had much more success than many folks at the time with a number of montane species.

"So I am not questioning your reasoning, I am just saying that if a keeper has devised something that works and keeps her chameleon healthy then I think telling a new owner to use a tank is risky."

Again, why would it be risky? To me it would seem that providing improper conditions is "risky" If it is easier to obtain the proper conditions with screened cages, then for goodness sakes, use screen cages. If, however, it is easier to provide healthy conditions by using mostly-enclosed cages, then why would we want to use screen? The easiest and most likely method to provide the right conditions should be the one used, no?

Mostly enclosed terraria vs. screened terraria are no more nor any less functional in the right situation. If the ambient conditions are like those the animal requires, then use screen. If they are different, a modestly ventilated cage can make it much, much easier to keep the chameleons healthy and happy.

You wouldn't grow orchids outside in NH during the winter, but they can do wonderfully if kept in a greenhouse. Likewise, it just doesn't make sense to keep most chameleons in low-humidity houses (either heated or cooled with AC) in free-air habitats most of the time. It would be easier and most folks would be more successful if ventilation were limited, allowing proper humidty and temperature to be maintained in the cages. It would, frankly, just be a lot less work and frustration to get the right conditions, and anything that is easier to do is inherently more likely to be done.

Anyway, my two bits

Chris

In general, I've found screen cages to eb the most usable in th emost situations. Easy to keep clean, light, sturdy, good ventilation, plus, you can modify them to adjust humidity.

I've found glass tanks to be the least usable, as they are heavy, hard to clean, and need to be very large (hence VERY heavy and VERY hard to clean) in order to keep larger species properly. The main reason is that tanks are TOO insulative, leading to a single temperature range. This impedes thermoregulation, meaning that it must be left up to the keeper, not the lizard, to regulate temperature (room for error).

Almost all my cages have plastic on the sides, to retail humidity. For veields, I find that it's not necessary, a few potted trees or plants tends to keep it plenty humid, when proper mistings are used.

I guess, the reason so many will say "screen is needed" is because of the retail options. You either buy a screen cage, or a fish tank.

this is one of the reasons I like to explain WHY a screen cage is good, and a tank might be bad - let them understand, and make a cage suitable for them.

Some of the best chameleons cages I've seen were glass front and back, screen top and sides. They were large, and the chameleon couldn't actually reach the glass. The problem with glass (NOT tanks, just glass in general) is the animals don't understand it's there - they try to get through it. Prevent them from accessing it, and that's not a problem. As long as ventilation is achieved, glass is excellent, in my opinion. Reflections are usually not an issue, as long as the room and cage are properly lit.

I'm planning on making an entire room for my animals in the basement. The enclosures will consist of a waterproof/resistant material (Fiberglass Reinforced Plastic probably) for the back wall (a continuous wall), with wooden framing supporting screen on the top and sides, with a solid bottom, drained, and screen or glass/plexi fronts. For my deremensis, I'l probably going to go with glass or plexi. For my melleri and veileds, probably screen. They seem to like more ventilation.

In my opinion, the reason a lot of this stuff is explained as it is, is because it's generally regarded as the "safe" way. As in, the instructions that newcomers are least likely to screw up. It is unfortunate that so many people have adopted this as the "only" way, or the "right" way.

People that frequented this message board ~7-8 years ago (I believe I used to post under Pluto77189) might remember me talking about my friend Pete Mackevich in PA, who kept adult chameleons in 20 gallon plastic tubs. He screened the top and one end, and that was it. The guy had very healthy and long lived animals. Didnt' do much for me - I like nice looking, planted cages - but it worked. It worked extremely well, in fact. He had veileds living longer than they were "supposed" to live back then.

Chris,

I meant that it is more risky due to the general audience that is reached here and on most forums: new owners who are generally less apt to pay close attention to heat and humidity build up in a glass tank.
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Chameleon Help & Resource Info
1.0 Nosy Be Panther Chameleon - Cyrus
0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
1.1.1 Side-blotched lizards - Ana and Stan
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skippy
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh, Died 4/21/06
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha, donated to science 4/4/06
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet