Reptile & Amphibian Forums

has anyone talked with any landowners in Gray band country.would like to see if they have the same issues

I have gotten access to some land in Terrell and Val Verde Counties. Be prepared to sign a waiver of liability. Agree not to harm the land i.e. return any rocks, boards etc. to opriginal position. Be prepared to pay for access. Cost will vary but don't complain. If you think it is too high just politely decline. Agree not to bring any alcohol onto the ranch. Be prepared to explain the hobby and not to randomly take any herp. you come across. Dress like you live in the area when approaching landowners. Consider ranches already open to outside activities.Be extremely polite.It may take awhile but it worked for me. All I approached had initial reservations. Once a few more agree I think it will open up a bit. Remember that landowner's can accept or decline anyone at any time.
Richard Strieber

I'm working on a few. Over the long haul, we hope to have several in many parts of the state. It's gonna take some time but it will happen. Many that I have spoken with have issues with liability. We've come up with a waiver that a couple have already looked at and like it. Joe will be posting the ranches and the waiver on the HCU website. We're working on ranchers with contact info and price schemes for those who wish to herp on private land most requiring waivers. Stay tuned...
JP
-----
Snakes of Hudspeth County, Texas

Some ranches that are used to visitors have a waiver already prepared. Thanks to everyone working on this.
Richard

>>Some ranches that are used to visitors have a waiver already prepared. Thanks to everyone working on this.
>>Richard

I hope I'm wrong but it seems people are starting to get a little soft. Hopefully this isn't the case. What I mean by this is that as long as the land owners are making money off us they will never be on our side in the hunting ROW issue. Not that many cared before the law was passed but now the have a stake in this issue, m-o-n-e-y. I for one will never pay to hunt private property. It's not like private pheasant hunts that are stocked and you're guaranteed a minimum take. If the state wants us off the ROW's then they should open up the hunting land that firearm and bow hunters are allowed to use for us too. I guess ranchers don't mind the lights they claim to see and complain about at night as long as they're profiting from it. Some people like myself spend thousands of dollars every year as it is for a few nights of collecting. I have no intention on adding to that total. I'm not knocking anyone who pays these guys to walk their property but I doubt this is an answer to the root of the real problem.
-----
Steve W.

I tend to agree. I am not going to pay to hunt until we have access to the roads again. There should be roadhunting allowed for those that don't want the dangers of hunting wilderness as well as private(and public) wilderness for experts wanting a more rugged experience.

The bottom line for me is we are not endangering anybody by walking the road shoulder so it should be allowed.

We should make it clear to these landowners that much (likely most) of our herping will still be on the public roads and ROWs (I've done both and find that field herping is more fun, but road herping is MUCH more productive). Part of our outreach should be to explain that we want to herp private land for the experience and special access. HOWEVER, many of us (particularly out of staters) will have NO incentive to travel to west Texas if we can't ALSO road hunt while in the area. I'd imagine most herpers wont want to spend more than 1/3 of their time on private land (we'll need the drive time to recover and actually see more herps).

Another thing to consider is that being we're usually walking around out in the middle of nowhere, be it on 277, Juno, Sanderson and so on. Many of us are legally armed for our protection from things such as wild aggressive animals, illegals etc.. Are these ranchers willing to let a bunch of armed people on their land? I think not. If I'm going to br forced off the roads and out into the open desert at night you better believe I'll wanna be packin. I know lots of us carry for various reasons. Just another thing to ponder.
-----
Steve W.

Deer leases in Texas do not guarantee a take. Neither do dove leases. Maybe you are talking about semi-canned hunts. We are stuck with this law for at least two years. It is a simple fact that you have to pay for access to private land. If you don't want to go then don't. You misunderstand my post. The only waivers being created now are by herpers for ranches currently not allowing access for any purpose. The waivers I was referring to have existed for many years on ranches that allow access for recreational activities. They have nothing specifically to do with herps. specifically. While we disagree with the law, the fact is we are being treated like other hunters. I was among a number of people who succeeded in getting the house amendment which ultimately did not become law. Since we have met with State Reps and Senators in preparation for next session. Are you from Texas? If so you should contact your state rep and senator and either way join the efforts of HCU and other groups trying to change the law. Believe me if you had talked to west Texas ranchers recently you would know there is not a mad rush to make money off of herpers. Most don't want anyone on their land. We can complain and complain but the only avenue is to accept the law or risk getting fined until it is hopefully changed.
Richard Strieber

>> While we disagree with the law, the fact is we are being treated like other hunters. I was among a number of people who succeeded in getting the house amendment which ultimately did not become law. Since we have met with State Reps and Senators in preparation for next session. Are you from Texas? >>Richard Strieber

I have to disagree with you on this. We are Not treated like other hunters. Other hunters have access to public hunting land. We do not. The simple fact is that we don't shoot our take seperates us from the "normal" hunter. No I'm not from Texas but i've spent anywhere from $30,000 - $40,000 there over the last twenty years averaging 7-10 nights per trip once a year. I've never been issued a summons of any kind, never caused an accident, and have never been stopped because of a rancher calling to say my light was shined onto his property. Bottom line is that many ranchers may say they don't want our money and that's ok by me because I won't use their land. But the same ranchers will take it if they need some extra dough. It just seems that some of us have lost the aggressive desire to take back what was unjustifiably taken from us. Think back, way back when everyone fought to regain our rights to once again collect. It seems that attitude is not here as it was then. Except for a few people working hard to try and reverse it. There used to be so many outspoken people that frequented these boards. Where are they now? This forum along with the alterna forum has very little activity. Seems like everyone ran scared once it was well known that LE was also reading the forums. Hopefully I'm wrong about all this.
-----
Steve W.

"There used to be so many outspoken people that frequented these boards. Where are they now?"

We probably aren't allowed to talk about that. hint, hint.

I think you have made many fine posts and I agree with you on almost everything but I have to disagree with you on this statement, "the fact is we are being treated like other hunters."

Putting aside for a moment the fact that there are dramatic differences between snake collecters and other hunters that make it ludicrous to even think the same rules should apply. Consider how we are in fact not treated like other hunters.
1) Hunters have access to public land on which to hunt - for them hunting private land is a choice not a requirement.
2) Hunters pay into the system and actually recieve something in return - studies and game management. We get guesses, the "percautionary principal" with no end in sight and blanket prohibitions without data.
3) Hunters are listened to and catered to by TPWD. Snake collecters are treated like criminals, villified in press statements and when we try to work with TPWD we get deaf ears.

I agree with you. My comment was on the law not the fairness of TPWD. I hope we can change minds and receive the same dignity given to deer and bird hunters. It is ironic that we are viewed differently since we don't kill animals pursuing herping. ( I am not against deer or bird hunting by the way)
Richard Strieber

I feel bad talking bad about TPWD because they and us should be on the same side. Hopefully that will change in the very near future.

The Texas legislature meets every two years. Many of us are already working on getting the law changed. What are you doing? What do you suggest we do since it falls on us in Texas to try to convinve the legislature to change the law? There is no public land in Texas the way there is in other states. We have some wildlife management areas where hunts are drawn by lottery.
If you have a suggestion please make it. You are doing nothing contstructive by voicing complaints. You talk about hard fought rights. What rights? There is no right to collect herps. It is a privelege just like driving. Did you live in Texas in the 70's? Did you do anything to change the ban on collecting alterna then? I did. You can disgree all you want but I am dealing with the reality of the situation. Again if you have a suggestion post it. And please at least sign your name and say which state you live in.

Sorry about the sp.
Richard Strieber

Also, what is it you have against west Texas ranchers?
richard Strieber

>>Also, what is it you have against west Texas ranchers?
>>richard Strieber

Nothing at all.
-----
Steve W.

>>The Texas legislature meets every two years. Many of us are already working on getting the law changed. What are you doing? What do you suggest we do since it falls on us in Texas to try to convinve the legislature to change the law? There is no public land in Texas the way there is in other states. We have some wildlife management areas where hunts are drawn by lottery.
>>If you have a suggestion please make it. You are doing nothing contstructive by voicing complaints. You talk about hard fought rights. What rights? There is no right to collect herps. It is a privelege just like driving. Did you live in Texas in the 70's? Did you do anything to change the ban on collecting alterna then? I did. You can disgree all you want but I am dealing with the reality of the situation. Again if you have a suggestion post it. And please at least sign your name and say which state you live in.

OK for one my name is Steve Wit (swwit) in case you need to know and I live in NJ which most people here know. Sorry you don't know me but I have no idea who you are either. Now that we got that out of the way. I have done all I can from a few thousand miles away. Including making phone calls both before and after the law was passed and sending faxes. By the way. I know what it's like to not have enough people band together to change laws. Being you don't know me please don't judge me. And no I did not do anything in the 70's to change the laws. Being I was about 10 years old at the time it would have been pretty difficult. I started herping west texas when it became legal again. Feel free to e-mail me with anymore concerns if you'd like. Thanks.
-----
Steve W.

Steve
I am an attorney in San Antonio. I was a former board member of the National Herpetological Alliance which was active in the 90's. I don't keep any Texas herps.except a couple of banded geckos at this time. I am in this because I think the law is wrong. Unfortunately, we have to go through the legislative process to fix this. In the process we have to change the view that many at TPWD have of herpers. That is why I reacted so strongly to your post. From speaking with many State Reps. and Senators I am convinced that we have to take the high road. We are faced with an institutional mentality at TPWD that does not view us in the same way as hunters or fishermen or even falconers. If we work together we can change this. I am confident that many legislators will support reversing the ban but if TPWD opposes the change, we could have a rough time. It only took one Rep. to get the ban in place using a tactic which is regrettably common at the State and National levels. I am just as passionate as you about changing the law. What are the laws in New Jersey concerning collecting and keeping herps? You can forward any info to HCU. I am working with others to put together a data base of laws. Through some other posts I learned of your loss and I am very sorry.

Richard Strieber

While we disagree with the law, the fact is we are being treated like other hunters.
RS, 8-20

We are faced with an institutional mentality at TPWD that does not view us in the same way as hunters or fishermen or even falconers.
RS, 8-21

Richard,

See above. Can you clarify the apparent inconsistency in those statements? Oh, and please provide some detail about your role in reversing the 70’s ban. Maybe explain what it was that provided the tipping point – for those of us that weren’t around. I had asked a similar question to someone else more than a month ago and couldn’t get any details about what happened to open everything back up. Thanks.

Robert Pelaez
Phoenix, AZ

I tried to clarify my comment about hunting in another post. I was speaking to the law itself, not TPWD's handling of herpers. The law bans all hunting on ROW's not just collecting herps. The problem regarding herpers is within TPWD, however, I think there is an opportunity to change the attitude at TPWD. The Department does not distinguish between collecting live specimens and traditional hunting. This is where we need to secure a change in attitude. While some Texas state lands are open to traditional hunters you have to enter a lottery to gain access. Texas does not have open public lands like many other states do. Not all traditional hunters gain access to those state lands which allow traditional hunting because of the lottery system. When I say we are not treated like traditional hunters I am speaking to the attitude at TPWD which historically has supported traditional hunters while viewing herpers as "poachers." In the 1970's Triangulum, Alterna and numerous others were banned from collection. A list appears in Tennets original volume "The Snakes of Texas." This was done without regard to any evidence that the listed species were in need of protection. Affecting a change took several years and included on my part and that of others discussing the matter with TPWD non-game officials and discussing the methodology utilized by the department in creating the banned list. On my part this consisted of numerous conversations and letters. Additionally, an individual who was the main supporter of the ban retired and his replacement was much more open minded. The process took a long time. Right now there are individuals within the department who advocate for reinstatement of the ban on collecting "alterna" and triangulum. Their argument is anecdotle in nature and appears to be based on a dislike of herpers. I encourage everyone who is out of state to review their own state's laws and provide that info to HCU. Remember, not all states are as open minded about herp. collecting as Texas is so please don't be too critical if you live in one of those states. You should work to change those laws as well as the Texas law. It is an unfortunate fact that States can,in my view, act in an arbitray fashion when it comes to wildlife laws. Hunting of all kinds is under the law a privilege not a right. That being said,we have many good people in TPWD but those few who dislike herpers have tremendous power. My hope is that through a reasoned collective effort by the herp. community we can change the minds of those at TPWD who do not care for herpers. Along that line I recommend that any letters be polite and include background info about the writer i.e. employment status, family status etc. TPWD needs to come to understand that we are a broad section of society not some "fringe" element. Right now some at TPWD view us as a fringe element only. That is why posts which vent and complain bother me so much. Initially, I was as guilty as others but I believe that time has passed. We need a reasoned professional approach until the next Texas legislative session in two years. Bills to lift the ban on road collecting will be proposed but we have to get them passed which will be difficult if TPWD opposes them. I hope this clarifies my position.
Richard Strieber

Richard,

It did. Thank you for the detailed response. I had a feeling that was the case, but needed clarification just to be sure. The new law treats herpers and traditional hunters the same way in “where not to hunt”, without mitigation for statutory differences in what they hunt, when they hunt and how they hunt. As for the Sinclair, Wagner, and MacDonald types at TPWD – who consider themselves learned individuals, I really hope they do not consider the vast majority of herpers to be “poachers”, because for the last twenty years, nobody’s poached anything unless they took from state and national parks, or private land without permission. However, in the event that did occur, it had to have been a statistically minute sample of the overall Texas herping population.

BTW, are you privy to inside information? You mentioned “individuals” in the Department, but I know of only one game warden who advocated a ban on alterna and triangulum, and thank God he‘s not considered much of a critical thinker by his peers – or anyone else for that matter.

Robert

Thanks for your post. Let me make clear that to my undertsanding Matt is not among those wanting to return to the 70's although I haven't spoken with him in ages. The problem seems to be within the enforcement division and appears to extend beyond one individual. It is based on a dislike of herpers not on scientific grounds.
Richard Strieber

As I recall it if the cocho water snake had not been on the list we would still have the 1970s law. The state wanted the Stacy dam and the water snake was in the way. They could not remove the water snake without saying the whole study was flawed. That’s why the lyre snake and a few others were left on the list but my memory may be a little off as I am in my 50s

In The 80s Sweet Water had a petion going around that said because the state was over 90% private lands that they could never hurt the wd.The snakes are sold many times now not just 1 x to sweetwater the same snakes may show up in ok for its round ups.Its all about the money today nothing else.This is going to be a long hard fight we dont seem to have public support Ive talked to a few ranchers @ Pandale and Langtry They say if the road hunters had stayed on the public roads and left the land as it was they would have less objections to road hunters.1 rancher went as far as to say. he was glad they changed the law now maybe he could get some sleep in the summer.He also said he lost 3 cows to the trash the road hunters left seems his cows liked styro foam cups.He is willing to alow day hunters but not night as long as all trash is packed out

How many styrofoam cups does it take to kill a cow? I am really curious. In 11 years of herping Texas I have seen only 3 person tresspass and 2 of those times were in the unfenced, abandonded drive-in west of Sanderson during the day. The place looks like a public dump already. I also find it really hard to believe herpers are littering as I have never seen it happen in my 11 years other than a few cigarette butts, but I see tons of alchohol bottles, old blankets, cloths, etc. Maybe herpers are suffering a bad rap from the days when alterna were worth $500 each and all sorts of people were attracted by the lure of easy money. This isn't the case today and I find it pretty insulting. Today most herpers are more likely to pick up other peoples trash than to leave their own.

I haven't seen any trash being tossed in the road by herpers either. I've seen plenty of the local boys tossing beer cans and bottles many times on 277 and Juno. Just this year we took a ride up Pandale paved road and as you drive up north, there is a nice well lit ranch on the left/west side of the road that had a couple guys hanging out in front of it with beer cans all over the road. Along with the ones in their hands. They weren't herpers, just some locals.
-----
Steve W.

Sounds to me like its easier to blame the snake hunters . It has to be them .The locals would not do such a thing.i dont know how many cups it takes to kill a cow .I got blamed once for a cow eating a shot gun shell.Proved that it was not my shotgun shell.

Honestly I think it's just because we are "outsiders". I do think it takes a certain character to run a ranch in West Texas. If I had one I would probably be leery of outsiders too. I also think TPWD has put as much bad publicity out about us as they can and that has affected local attitudes as well. I was checking into a trailer at Stillwell's and when the lady found out we were snake collecters she said a warden told her our kind had already taken all of the snakes out of Black Gap so we probably wouldn't see any.

I saw a truck, had to be DUI driving towards Lajitas... kinda slow and not to steady.

The funny thing was after I spun around and followed his trail for a while I could tell you how many beers he had from about the windmill to the teepees... there was a can every 2-3 miles laying on the road.

Herpers do not litter, it is that simple..

Once on RR I saw fresh cigarette butts appear every couple hours. They were the same brand so I am fairly certain it was a herper. That is the ONLY time I have ever seen a herper litter in 11 years. Plus I see that as more of a smoker issue and not a herper issue.

Only herpers use styrofoam cups?

That is just an example to the stupid we have to fight here. We have every bad thing laid on us as herpers while everybody else is a Saint?

I am sure that no mules or coyotes ever cut a fence or left a gate open to bring drugs or illegals across, it must have been herpers.

I am also sure that herpers are responsible for all the cow tipping, it could not have been bored teenagers or anything.

These ranchers have a lot learn, at least as much as TP&W about where to place some blame.

Lance

>>Steve
>>. What are the laws in New Jersey concerning collecting and keeping herps? You can forward any info to HCU. I am working with others to put together a data base of laws. Through some other posts I learned of your loss and I am very sorry.
>>
>>Richard Strieber

First and most importantly, thank you for the kind words concerning my Dad. I appreciate it very much.

The laws in N.J. are most likely the worst in the country. You can't collect "anything" in this state. They only issue scientific collecting permits to people doing work with a certain animal. They will not issue permits to hobbyists. The only thing legal to collect seasonally is snapping turtles, bullfrogs and green frogs under a fishing license. Unfortunately this is a bad state for two of my hobbies, herps and firearms. Both of which permits are needed. I have to register each and every herp of exotic animal with the state. Including my parrot's leg band number. This is a very blue state and they won't even entertain the idea of changes in the laws. Not a good place to live if you're a herper.

-----
Steve W.

I have aquired access to 6 ranches in the TP; 1 in Pecos county, 1 in Val Verde and 4 in Brewster county. I also was invited by another rancher to come down and visit him to talk about herp collection on his 10,000 acre ranch in Val Verde county.
I would suggest asking for permission first without mentioning $. All I have spoken to have not required any waivers or payment. Most hate snakes and want all removed or killed. They have all requested certain requirements, some of which I presented to them when we first spoke. Some of these are:
1) No offroad except on two tracks or roads
2) any visitors must accompany me with a limit of 4 people
3) no smoking/campfires
4) cleanup all trash
5) no alcohol
6) I must let them know any time I plan to come down ( I always ask permission on every trip. One time a ranch had a group of hunters out on opening day and they asked me to come out the following weekend instead).
7) close any gate you open
8) leave livestock alone

I always offer to come and meet them face to face, some are impressed by this and others don't require it. I shake their hands and introduce myself, state where I'm from, etc.
Any time I meet with them I explain the different herps I'm looking for and ask for tips on where to find them. Most everyone I've talked to are familiar with herps when they have seen them in my field guide and they are happy to point me in the right direction.
I usually do not carry, but those travelling with me do. It has never previously been an issue with ranchers- we saw a bear in June on a road near one of the ranches in Brewster county- ranchers know these threats exist. You may even want to disclose that info after you have been given permission to trek the land.
I always try to be polite and thank them if they give permission. I have reported injured or dead livestock, down fences, etc. My last trip, I was able to report to the rancher a hairline fracture in an oil pipeline. After calling, they thanked me because this could have led to a large contamination of the environment.
All of these things build trust and help to secure a spot to hunt until roadways and cuts are reopened to us.

Great!! This has been my experience as well but I have paid small access fees to some.
Richard Strieber

One question: how do you generally go about figuring out what's where & who you're supposed to ask? I haven't wandered TX too much, but there are plenty of places in NM where I might see an outcrop I'd like to check out, or be able to cross a ranch to get to public land on the other side, but there's no ranch house nearby & I haven't got a clue who runs the place or where they are.

I too used to collect lincoln natl. forest areas and Guads/sacrementos. Much of the land is deeded (private land passed from generation to generation). Some is BLM or Forest service. I spent my days driving around and asking anyone who owned this place or that, while my buddies slept in the tent or motel. Most oilfield workers didn't know personally, and occasionally I'd see a feed truck (flatbed w/grillguard) and a rancher or foreman inside. I'd introduce myself, state what I was doing and ask if they knew any good spots. If they seemed open, I'd ask if they'd mind me looking. Again I've never talked to a local who did not want snakes removed or killed.

Just today, I spoke to a landowner whom I'd never met, his neighbor allows me to look on his place. I called, asked for a good place to look- he didn't know. I asked him if he'd mind if I went on his place. I could tell he was somewhat reluctant when I mentioned crotalids, but he accepted if I'd sign a waiver of liability (this is only the 2nd time I've ever been asked to sign a waiver). I agreed and we will meet this weekend.
Yes it will take time, but once secured,permission usually extends year after year.
p.s. you can buy plot maps online that give you owners names and property lines(of a place you've scouted that looks good) and then contact them through people search.
Good luck!

>>2) any visitors must accompany me with a limit of 4 people

This is the whole problem. I have access to ranches all over west and south Texas and can take people with me when I go too BUT I can only go a few times a year as I'm guessing you can too. The problem is that there are people all over the country that don't know you or me that would like to go snake hunting. They also do not have time to drive down and BS with a bunch of ranchers to try and get access. Most folks only get a small amount of time off a year to go pursue their hobby. When they get off work and want to go snake hunting, the last thing they want to do is to go out at random trying to find a rancher that will let them him/her have access. This is the whole premise behind HCU's rec. program. We get a bunch of ranchers that are willing to let folks go out for a nominal fee, put their info up on a website and when members feel like planning a trip, they can contact a ranch in the area of their choice, make arrangements and when they come down go right to where they want to go. The, "just go with me" idea is great if everyone knew you and had the same days off as you. I've tried arranging times for folks to go with me many times. Unfortunately I work LOTS of hours with little time off so it rarely happens. I would ask that if you have access to these ranches and have already developed a report, get them on the program in anyway you can. If you can get them to do it for free, I'll owe you a steak dinner. I hope you take me up on the offer. I personally think that a nominal fee like $20-30 while not making a rancher rich, would certainly help pay his property taxes if he gets enough business. I wouldn't mind paying this amount one bit for some hassle /traffic free photography.

Don't get me wrong, we are working very hard to get this BS law changed. We're talking to reps, trying to raise money for donating to campaigns, have many plans for being the biggest pain in the A for HH as we can and working as many other angles as can be thought of. In the mean time, we have to make do with the hand we are dealt. If a person wishes to go out and do the civil disob. thing, feel free. I won't think any less of you as I think this law is the most ignorant BS that’s ever been passed.

The gun folks, deer folks, duck hunters, and just about everyone else has figured out how this game works. There is power in numbers and unfortunately money talks. Why do you think that the hunters get access to the WMA's and the like? They organize and talk to the powers that be with a unified voice. It would seem many (not all) in the herp community would rather remain complacent, gripe allot and do nothing, or have the attitude that it doesn't affect them so they're not getting involved. It affects all of us. I suggest that we support everyone who wants to fight this whether it is Jeff's lawsuit, HCU, or anyone else. Talk is cheap...lets step up to the plate..

Oh well enough blabbering...
-----
Snakes of Hudspeth County, Texas

I understand your points. Hopefully roadcruising will open up soon and end this mess. Until then we are left up to accessing
lands legally through invite or lease.

My experience is the same. $25 seems to be the going rate. I am hopeful we can get more ranches open. I have had to really explain the hobby but once I do most are receptive. Please everyone support HCU.
Richard Strieber