Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Lets have a big fat discussion. I ask you this because your about the only one to kick my bum at times(hmmm to many times). You also have been here very long and has particapated in the subject I want to discuss. You have taken both sides in the past, so I see no one better. And the fact your so darn creative and actually a genius in that area. Of course, only if your feeling up to it. So please, ease up a little and try to make the point, and not destroy me in the process. hahahahahaahha

AS you know, so many want to think they are "scientific" and try to point out that I am not scientific. I QUESTION THAT. I have givin that some thought and have come up with a fun way of explaining why that could be wrong. I want you to defend the scientific view point, and of course I will take my old non science/actually science stance.

So to throw the first punch, I will say that these science folks have lost the meaning of science(the mission statement) And have confused science with religion. (a large bomb)

Let me clarify, in this case, its not about god as a focal point of religion. But as a subject based on faith. As in, religion is to have faith, not necessarily from proof/or results. So, they believe in science, and seem to have faith in science. To the extreme of treating science as a religion, based on faith not from the practice of.

Let me define my view of science a little bit. Science is a way of thinking, deductive, pragmatic, etc is substantiated with repeated results. simply put, science is to ask questions and have them answered in a consistant repeatable way.(applied science)

It appears to me, the possibility that some of those that argue or dicsuss this with me, use science as an approach, but do not have results to support their opinions. They base their opinions on their believe(faith in science) and not on actual recieved repeatable results(in the context of this forum, the keeping and breeding of monitors)AND HERESAY, banter from others without scientific support.

Of course with different individuals, there have been various degrees of their actual results, but in all cases, it was very limited. Science is to quantify. That is, It must be supported with numbers. Many superceeds the few. To be a little Lt. Spock like.(the needs of the many, outweights the needs of the few)

Next I will put this out. How scientific is it to argue theory(or faith) over repeated results. For instance, many argue a hatchling or ten, and a few clutches, over many thousands of hatchlings and clutches. That is not being scientific, is it? Or to argue against quantified results, with theory and faith. Again, that is not within the rules of science.

So heres what I am saying, those that do argue against my results, are doing so, not based on THE PRACTICE of science, but instead because of their faith in science(religion). Again science is not about religion or faith, its about results. Or they simply find benefit to ignore my results. which is also non scientific. Truthfully, To be scientific they should investigate my results.

As silly as it sounds and yes, to some it does sound silly, I appear to be one of the few to practice science. You see, science is not something you are, its something you practice. All my results, tools, opinions and suggestions are based on trial and error, which is a scientific approach. And the recieving of benefitual results through testing, again, scientific. Because I think like a reptile and spell funny, does not make my approach unscientific.

One of my faults is, I am poor at the language of science(hmmmmm english too) is that worse then, to use the language of science without actual science(results)? This again appears to be confusing science with, faith and religion. Its not being scientific. Science is a result, not a forumula. (That last sentence is Key to understanding this)

Let me refresh folks, there are many forms of science, such as applied science(what we do here) academic science( knowledge, teaching, theory) academics is knowledge not applied. Its in the dictionary. Of course there are many more areas of sciene, But those are the two most commonly confused on these forums. Another definition is, technological enterprises. What does that mean?

So Jobi, can you add to that? or are you going to, "hit me with your best shot" I am ready to duck. I ducking now. Thanks if you play or not. Cheers

So to throw the first punch, I will say that these science folks have lost the meaning of science(the mission statement) And have confused science with religion. (a large bomb)

What we do you and me with animals is all about science, husbandry wise when we make changes to achieve better results, this is all about science, to observe and understand an animals physiological capabilities, and to apply this understanding to our captives, is the epiphany of science, anything beyond this is madness. I don’t care if anyone says otherwise, heck id confront Darwin or Einstein about this no problem, but somehow I feel they would rather listen and learn then argue results, after all weren’t they the smarter ones?
Those folks your talking about can’t understand what we are saying, how could they?
The simple fact that they keep reading this forum says it all, they are your students regardless of there science back grounds. Whatever success they have is partly yours and mine, this makes me feel as good as it makes them angry.
In any case or any aspects of husbandry we the keepers will always be on the front line, we are progressive.
Like you I am not blinded by whatever success I have now, my husbandry and understanding will keep changing and progressing, I understand none of those science folks could ever keep up with me, they simply can’t commit the same way that I can. Eventually if I ever stop progressing I will stop keeping animals, theirs no point in keeping something you don’t profit from.
It’s no easy feat for us to have a discussion as we both see pretty much the same, it would be much easier for me to team up with those folks as I did with Byless, and confront you on your turf as opponents, but hey iv had my glory days already. hahaha

You are right, we agree to much to fake it. And your right, its more about passion plus science anyway. At times, I feel something good occurs only because I WANT it so bad. Both in the field and in boxes.

I guess my teachers were very unique, They taught me to practice science. Not believe you are science. As you know, that was the focal point of many a fine arguement. You know, from those that thought what they said was science, not from the results they recieved.

Sometimes I think these science fellas are very smart but very impatient. They cannot wait for results, so they find ways to make results out of math.

The recent "discussion" was not that extreme, I think its folks getting excited about their first successes and going overboard. In that, I have no worries, time will tell. Thanks

If you two want to toot each others horns please do it in email. We don't all need or gain anything by this ridiculous debate about how great and progressive you are while giving a swift back hand to the folks you call academics. We get to hear about that enough in your posts that are within context.

As you've said many times FR, look at the heading of this forum and stay within context.
cheers

Oh come on you can do better then that?

Try again!
hahaha

Oh come on you can do better then that?

Try again!
and again...

put something on the table for me, so I know its not a one way affair.

I'm not familiar with you Jobi I'm afraid. Can you tell me about the monitors you keep and have hatched eggs from?

I've hatched argus and have F2 cooking from the progeny i raised up. I have a lot of Ackie eggs cooking at present. 4/6 of the first clutch died late term from too much moisture. The remainder are looking great after some incubation tweaking. Four females, all producing fertile eggs, four years. I did not keep any female monitors for some time inbetween. For that, I am sorry. That's only what FR seems to care about. My captives are well taken care of and fit, but that seems to be on the backburner it seems.

I think the post got too far down. So i bumped it up for y'all:

The most simple summary is still this: a guy's monitor had a Calcium to Phosphorus ratio of 1:5 and all the classic symptoms of NSHP or CD as you referenced it. Normal (whether you know this or not) is more in the range of 3:1 to 2:1. You can refute that, call vets, whatever. I offered advice to the man and you said 'That's all huey. Who's to say what normal is.' I referenced and quoted vet-backed information. So you question veterinary medicine and lab values, not me. That's fine. I just pointed out the obvious.

I then stated that the keeper should listen to your advice on proper husbandry of Storr's. You've raised them, hatched them,etc,etc,etc. You would know. I also listed the known fact that commercially raised insects are Phosphorus-heavy and dusting bugs is a remedy-you admitedly have used it in the past with success. You still don't agree. OK. Better husbandry may have prevented the problem in the first place. That - you may be 100% correct about. But quit with the 'preschooler' name calling and such. THAT makes it personal to me. Can you discuss w/o name calling? The information is what it is for everybody to read. I don't disagree with you that better husbandry may have helped this guy, but in a critical time w/ a lizard seizuring and likely metabolizing it's skeleton - i don't agree with you to do absolutely nothing because a couple other of his lizards are asymptomatic. Please don't make me respond to this discussion any further. Let people make up their own minds.

The huey part is that need to know that, as it does absolutely no good. I also mentioned I raised up many generations without suppliments.

I do not care if you want to make your husbandry all complicated. You may enjoy that. But I am hoping to influence those what want to make it simple, and easy. The reason I say that is, IT IS SIMPLE AND EASY.

What you do not understand or appear to not understand is, That with decent husbandry and a superior ability to digest and metabolize their food, monitors can get away with consuming less then optimal food and progress very well.

Of course you question that, but YOU my scientific friend have not tested anything. For instance, not that your successful, what were the times between clutches, or the times from copulation? My bet is a month or more. Please tell us. And no its not a contest.

We commonly see eight to ten days between clutches in many individuals. And commonly have monitors such as Ackies, storrs, tristis produce clutches every two weeks.

No its not a contest. What it tells me is, they HAVE to be running at different speeds then ones that have clutches every month. Or every other month. Or once or twice a year. You see your the one who is not thinking. Producing clutches, produces information. Producing them in different condition sets, changes the results

With that said, monitors producing clutches every two weeks MUST have more efficent metabolism.

Which points to this, it appears those formulas you point out, because obsolete at that rate of metabolism.

To understand this better, I have seen wild monitors having half their tails and the entire top of them burnt off. And heal and survive. I do not believe a captive could do that, vet care or not. I have a lacie that had 20% of her side and parts of the front leg get burnt off and she healed, but its taken two years.

This may indicate that wild monitors may have metabolistic abilities we flat do not understand. As is clutches in eight days to you.

You see, it appears you are like the others, you do not want to talk about monitor. Oh you do, as long as it shows you in good lite. The problem is, none of us are in good lite. We all suck. So why not be honest and simply have fun and have decent discussions.

You see, you think to get eggs or babies is the end. As in end result. I say that because you think thats all I care about. You know what, ITS ONLY THE BEGINING. They're are a billion levels of information(success) That start with recieving eggs and babies. In all reality, F2 is the very start of capitive monitors. The start not the end.

Years ago, I often stated, I did not learn about a species until f5 or so. The reason was, about then I stopped doing the unnecessary and actually started concentrating on the necessary.

U know, thats what makes me so mad, you seem to know so much more and you have only recieved a few eggs.

Nothing against you, I have always said you appear to be doing great. I do understand it must be hard to think past your own experience level. So please understand, its very hard for me to think below my experience level. Cheers

(((I'm not familiar with you Jobi I'm afraid)))
Then my friend you have it all, why complicate things?

(((4/6 of the first clutch died late term from too much moisture)))

Really? Nonsense!
Your reasoning is why they failed, step back and be objective a little.
Don’t try to convince yourself or others on the why MBD or how your clutches have failed, simply ask yourself the right questions.

Your eggs didn’t fail from excessive moisture, they failed from restrictive breathing. Most keepers suck at egg husbandry, they suffocate eggs in over saturated and sealed containers. Why is it that in nature eggs can and do go thru floods, temp variation, fluctuating moisture and still hatch strong?

You like many focus on the how many species and how many eggs have you hatched, again the wrong questions. The right question is what can I teach you?

Answer as much as you are willing to learn.

i have to agree with Jobi, WHY NOT ADD SOMETHING. why just say silly things.

You see I am interested in progressing husbandry, by actual application of successful techniques.

You seem to be only interested in snide remarks. Cheers

Science would go something like this; find the parameters of an egg ( highest temperature it will hatch and the lowest temperature it will hatch, flood some and dry some out (find the parameters of an egg) study why an egg in the wild has success with less than ideal conditions floods and high/low temp. Take chances since, egg temp fluctuates in the wild that should be one of the parameters we should test? The argument would be why allow some to perish and my argument if you know why they perish you will know the parameters in which you work. By sacrificing a few you might have a knowledge base that will allow for un-paralleled success in the long run. I think too often people are scared to think for themselves and common sense is lacking. If an egg is flooded on the bottom where there is no air space will it parish? What is the pH in a burrow where the eggs are laid? Is it an old rodent nest with rodent pee in the soil what would the pH be? How much calcium is in a wild egg verses a domestic egg? Guess I could do what works or what everyone else does but how much fun is that?
-----
"Life without risk is to merely exist."

Reptilian Incubation
Basics * Guidelines * Experiences
by Gunther Köhler
Translation by Valerie Haecky
Contributors:
68 Color Photographs
20 Black and White Photographs
66 Drawings and Diagrams
Theirs plenty of studies on reptile eggs, the latest is the excellent boo I mentioned above, it was released in 2006? Got mine in 04 as pre-print.
Also many keepers have tested many aspect of egg husbandry, starting with female ovulation, nesting options, and incubation techniques. What we have learned is a fragment of what’s left to learn, our understanding is barely acceptable in comparison to what mystery unsolved. Maybe sometime in the future we will find today’s method barbarous?
I can say already from my perspective the above book is boring and flavorless to me.
Iv learned more about incubation from a gardening forum, funny how some plants behave exactly like eggs when not properly potted, I guess some peoples understood the value of soil breath ability a long time ago.
I clearly see all that iv been missing from my past husbandry, by wanting the best for my eggs, I was in fact weakening them from the start, those air tight plastic containers sure looked sweet in my incubators, its really amazing how tough reptiles really are to endure such physical abuse and still develop hatch and grow.
Eggs are tough from the moment they are nested or dropped, they are way more tougher then anyone could imagine, hears an other of my stories for those interested. Some time ago I was asked to tack charge of 8 eggs dropped on the bottom of a pet shop cage, this was from a fresh gravid import, I was to incubate them and keep a pair for myself, when I arrived at the shop the eggs where in a plastic container literally soaking wet in sphagnum moss, I took them out in no particular order, and deposited them on the counter while I went to squeeze the excess water from the moss, on my return as I was putting the cover back on and enjoying a conversation at the same time, I dropped the container to the floor and off when the eggs bouncing on the cement floor, of course I haven’t lost a word and kept my conversation actively, much to the horror of the owner who immediately abandoned all hope and offered to trash them on the spot. Well 80km farther I got home and set them up, I checked on them every few days, all appeared normal, 6 hatched strong 2 died full term, these 2 hade deformed tails, all others where normal both physical and mental. So those this experience means I know more then others? Yes and no!
No because others have hatched such eggs before, was it a fluke? Or the fruit of expertise? Who knows?
Yes because that allowed me to test new ides, like more air less restriction, temp variation and moisture, soon my views about how delicate and fragile eggs are, changed to how tough they are, how I could handle them and spray them without adverse effect, how some iv rotated by accident kept on ticking and hatched, no more are the days when swelled like a ping-pong from over saturation and collapsed when the cover was opened, heck sometimes I walk in the house to answer the phone with an egg in hand, this is not only out of the box, its out the incubator, reptile room and voila new house environment. This have also caused me to question about egg retention, egg dropping, and nesting, retention might be caused by really wrong conditions, but dropping could be a natural occurrence some species may be forced to occasionally do by nature? I can see how the monsoon can affect monitors in the nesting process, maybe predatory reasons could lead to this too? Surly the stress of capture and expedition do, I am only speculating.
So in summery what do I really know? Nothing at all, I only post to entertain.

Oh and by the way, calcium absorption is an obsolete subject in modern husbandry (progressive) it’s on the back burner along with UV’s and wormers.
Got to go take my Centrum’s I feel pain in my neck.

Ps. Why not keep some earless lizards and breed them, you may even multiclutch them while talking to your pears on the cell?
Of course then you will know the value of those researches.

As an experiment last year I left 24 eggs outside 8 were laid under a flowerpot with a huge hole in the side and the ballance were laid in a sump that was 2 feet underground. There was no substrate in either one. Care to guess which one was a perfect hatch? you got a 50/50 chance. You get no information on what species since your egg info was general in terms.
-----
"Life without risk is to merely exist."

I posted some pics on our forum of some eggs laid in a water valve box. They were laid on the ground at the bottom, with a tiny bit of leaves. We got a heavy rain and I opened the box to see the eggs floating in there. Later I opened the box again to see the eggs hatching.

But, both your example and mine, are out of context to hatching monitor eggs in captivity.

Monitor eggs are totally different from many other lizard eggs. Many species(our local stuff) lay eggs very near the surface, you know like beardeds. They incubate quickly and hatch normally within a givin season. Monitor eggs are normally deep deposition. That is, they are placed in a more secure place and often take several seasons(spring, summer, fall, winter) to hatch(larger species) Our own gila monster, nests very similar to varanids. Deep with medium incubation times. Also most all varanids diapause. Something all our local lizards do not do.

As one who has seen varanid nests in nature. And many many other reptiles species nests, I have found that our incubation is nothing like what they do. At all. But what we do, works. You can make it simple and have it work very easily.

As I often mentioned, I have had eggs incubating continiously, without missing a single day, since June of 1991. If it was complicated, I would not have done that. Basically speaking, I put eggs in the incubator and take out babies. No muss, no fuss.

It appears folks love muss and fuss, and killing eggs, they must, if not, they would just copy someone whos makes it look easy,(and that is not just me) There have been many commerical breeders from the Pete Kuhns(really good at hatching eggs) to the Original Rare earth, to many others, who have no problems.

Again, I would have to think that those with problems, WANT THEM. or else they would simply do what works and has been shown to work. YES? Also it appears EGO is very much envolved. Why else would someone kill wonderful monitors(in the eggs) in some attempt to invent a new way to do something thats already known to be easy????????????????????????????????????? Cheers

They excel at digging up eggs (easy lunch) consequently they put more efforts in nesting them, other lizards especially some forest agamids may not see a need to nest deep, first eggs aren’t on there menu and second they don’t stick around to witness the genocide. But are these eggs any different?

From what I know nesting is not constant, they will nest deeper in dryer times, they may also nest in other places to avoid floods at some time, so they aren’t restricted in media or location choices.

This we both understand, however where you are losing me, is when you say eggs are different from one specie to an other. I understand about diapauses and long incubation, but its these very qualities that makes them tough to variables. I remember Walter telling me about him circling a komodo nest with a kiddie pool lignin, you know the exterior metal wall, he knocked this wall 6in deep all around the nest site to protect it from predation, one day after a heavy rain the dang thing filled with water, as a result those eggs hatched 2 weeks before the neighbouring nests, funny considering he tot they have drowned.
Opposing stories of very dry nest and babies hatching from syringed eggs on komodo have been documented.

You advocate about nesting options, but you know as I do witch options they will choose, so its unfair as we can provide a narrow band of options, we can almost pin point where they will nest, in fact we manipulate our caging in this optic. You also advocate mass when it comes to incubation, this comes from an understanding of what these eggs require to strive, mass kinds of buffers our mistakes of husbandry.

Those guys who kills them don’t understand about options, they use shallow Rubbermaid’s with no mass and no breath-ability, its amazing they hatch some eggs in those conditions, proving how tough they are.

When someone post about his eggs dieing from excessive moisture, I find it odd, if eggs where so fragile millions would die off from the first rainy day, next is when I hear about dieing eggs from incubator power failure, this is also odd as there are strong temperature drops all over this world, same goes to hotter days, enough variation to make reptiles go extinct if we refer to our captive eggs. But no they make it thru alright, is there something we are missing? Yes absolutely, I thing we are killing them with love, they don’t need us to foster them as we do, from the first day we put them in these terrible stagnant containers, they get weaker by the day, there immune system gets crippled and the egg membrane starts to lose its functions, resulting in full term dead or fungal infection, weak hatchlings or mentally disturbed not to mention deformities.

You being on the front line of varanids husbandry should agree that egg husbandry is still in the infancy stage, I agree many good peoples have don excellent work, but this wont keep me from pushing the limits and trying new ideas. I have broth to your attention not long ago, that I think these eggs could be moved and even shipped, but you rejected this idea, perhaps you see no need or value in this?

Your stubbornness in your ways has allowed all of us to reach higher goals then tough possible, however you are progressive and because of that will test these ideas and bring new possibilities in the process, witch is all good to me. If I wasn’t learning something from you I would not come here.

What I really meant to say was, I don’t think varanids eggs are any different from other lizards, I don’t think deep nesting has much to do with environment stability, in my opinion its more about predation of the eggs.

Of course I am not saying this to annoy you and your experience, I understand your logistic, and from any point of view deep nesting for stability on long term incubation makes sense, in fact I feel out of place with my statement, but I have reasons to believe otherwise, surly enough to keep looking. I am like you in the sense that I have nothing and nowhere to seek guidance or answers to my questions, witch are much more numerous then the few answers.
So pleas I ask that you put a few eggs in a basket and try something different then what you already do or did.

And I agree. Lets say, all soft shell eggs appear to be very much alike. And are hatched at the very same principles. Longer, shorter, so what, hey? Also, diapause without question can be effected by a change in enviornmental conditions(rain)

After seeing odatria nests in nature, it will take rain for the babies to escape the nests. For instance V.storri, their burrows are in ROCK hard dirt in the dry season, They lay eggs(sept,oct) in the begining of the Dry. Without rain, I wonder how the neonates dig out. Maybe the mother digs them up, like freshies.

And yes, the depth they nest is very much determined by conditions. With me. They nest shallower in winter, and deeper in summer. But, they always nest deeper them the shallow nesting lizards.

ALso. I agree, those that are having problems, must not want to hatch them. Because, there are so many keepers that have no problem and most to those have no problem sharing.

In my little incubator room, we hatch, torts, turtles, colubrid snakes, pythons, local lizards, and monitors of many kinds from small to large. And all under the same exact conditions. With turtles and torts, we hatch part on the top shelves and part of the lower shelves, just in case that does effect the sex.

Anyway, I think, many have a big ego and do not want to copy. And as you know, they want it to be theory, so if they have success, they can take all credit.

Me, I copied, me, Dave and Tracy Barker and Ron Tremper. Thats all I needed to do. Everytime I see one of them, I thank them for the help.

The pic is me in a freshie croc nest. All nests I found in this area, have both infertiles and full term dead babies. The dead babies were at the bottom of the nest, which was very very wet. It may be possible they gave their lives for the rest o the clutch.Cheers

My guess would have been the eggs in the sump should have had a perfect hatch but it was the eggs under the flower pot. My reasoning was that the eggs in the sump , even without substrate, should have drawn moisture from a cooler environment similar to a can of beer in a refrigerator drawing moisture. The second reason was the eggs in the sump had a stable temperature variance. So I post this to learn why did the eggs with wild temperature and moisture fluctuations have a perfect hatch? temperature fluctuation was 102 to 74 A few eggs in the very bottom of the sump failed from excessive moisture. I would like to hear your theory and I will give mine. I live in Kansas and time of year was July. Here are the eggs and flower pot.


-----
"Life without risk is to merely exist."

I've always wondered why I've never heard anyone mention hatchlings from natural nests instead of human incubation methods. I've seen you mention purposefully not digging up clutches and I wonder, "Don't any of them ever make it?"

Is it known that some monitors dig up their hatchlings and/or some hatchlings dig their way out?

Has anyone incubated monitor eggs in soil, alone, kept in a controlled environment (incubator, etc...)?

Thanks!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

Not sure of your questions. Yes, I have incubated monitors in sand. Also, yes, we have had indoor monitors hatch in their cages. Only two types. Caudolineatus(several times), which have a short incubation period. And Ackies, the ackies have to be laid in the spring, so they can hatch before winter. All eggs have died in our winter, inside and out.

Outside, we had flavis reach 2/3's development before they died. And One single baby storrs, popped up in a cage. Only heaven knows where that came from, as I could not remember ever having adults in cage.

But then recently I had a golden greek tortoise hatch out in a timor cage. Without knowledge the adults were ever in there, very surprising I tell you. My son reminded me that I put them in there for a very short time.

I am hoping to see some lacie hatchlings in a cage some day. Once I had lacie eggs incubate halfway outside. I dug them up after many nights in the low 20's, some hatched. Cheers

Just the other day I was looking in my western Hogs cage to see a newborn racer! I put a racer in that cage for a couple of days and then moved it. But that cage has been dug up, moved in the back of a pickup, been in cold (low 50's) and in hot (Hi 90's). I was completely shocked... mostly that the Hogs didn't eat them.
Jason
-----
"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

> > > Not sure of your questions.

Haha! You nailed 'em.

Frank, I posted a Q for you & jobi in a thread from the other day. If you've got a minute and don't mind helping me work the kinks out of my sexing ability, I'd really appreciate your input on it. Here's the link: forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1375517,1378670

Take care!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American