Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I've read a couple of posts on this and there seems to be a pretty strong debate. I've been contemplating an alternative I haven't heard mentioned and am curious as to others thoughts. I'll start with a little background; feel free to skip ahead if you aren't into long posts.

I keep a number of boids including anacondas, burms and retics. I have only recently moved into the larger pythons after over 25 years of herping, as resources allowed. My education is in psychology with a focus on learning. I, admittedly, box feed frozen/thawed. I have done this with my boas because I keep more than one in a cage. Of course, moving an adult boa is different than the big boys (and girls) I'm raising now. I think (opinion) moving a snake after a feed does not introduce risk to the snake. I've never had a regurg from this. My retic is now about nine feet. He is placed in his box before any feeding activities take place (i.e. placing other boxes out, bringing in the bucket of rodents, etc.) A rat is dropped in and he promptly eats it. His feeding response has diminished and he often only throws a loose coil around it. He then waits until everyone else eats and is returned to their cages, about 45 minutes. I move his container next to his cage and gently usher him in with a hook, using the clear lid as a shield. There are the occasional errant strikes at the hook or shield but it is a pretty painless procedure. My reason for box feeding is to prevent conditioning him to food coming in the same place my hand often does, though I still tap him prior to putting in my hand. For me, hearing retics are one of the smartest of snakes I wanted to test some classical conditioning. I mean, if they can teach cuban crocodiles to respond to their names...

So when I finally have a nice 20 some foot female super tiger girlfriend for him will I still want to box feed? Or my anaconda, which full grown will exert in the neighborhood of 9000 pounds of pressure psi? How can I keep my hobby safe? I will always have a spotter, but not always enough, or one strong enough, to wrestle a determined boid if I'm ever mistaken for food.

Snakes can be conditioned that once tapped they do not expect food. They can also be conditioned, without effort, that food is that fast moving warm thing slid in their front door. Shame when one was just reaching in to spot clean. But a huge snake is difficult and dangerous to move.

Stealing from a trick for trouble feeders and an idea hot keepers use, what if one trap box feeds? I use Vision cages on racks oriented vertically. If a hole was cut in the side and then doored, a box ("trap box" with food inside could be rolled up to the side and the door opened. It would simulate the snake having to enter an den (granted many are ambush hunters) and remove handling the snake and conditioning it to receive food from the front doors. It doesn't seem to involved or hard for most to accomplish with current set ups. By closing the door and allowing the snake to feed it would also provide an opportune time for those with aggressive snakes to perform cage maintenance.

Thoughts? Comments? Ideas? Input? Funny flames? I'm a good sport.

Cheers,

Ryan

snakes do get conditioned to our feeding practices and especially retics. they are by far the most intelligent snake that I have ever raised. With that said, they also have one of the strongest feeding responces I've ever seen. On days of feeding handling them is absolutely forbidden in our snake room. this goes for spot cleaning, changing water or even moving them from the doors of their cages. I personally do not want any part of me or my wife affiliated with food. Once a retic is deep in a feeding mode, it is hard to get them out of it and moving one even an hour after feeding still wants to be fed (the reason yours is striking and such unless it is already a high strung animal). Also when dealing with an animal that has had a very large meal, such as an adult retic will consume, the chance of regurge or damage to internal organs increases dramatically. Just think of that 20ft retic that just ate a 30lb pig/goat or a couple giant bunnies spazzes out. How are you going to restrain it without injuring yourself, your helper or the snake. It's a chance that I'm not willing to take and most people just don't risk.
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Josh & Krysty Hutto
J&K Reptiles

Various Ball Pythons:::

1.0 striped vanilla
1.0 spider
1.2 Citrus Ghost and hets
1.2 Albino and hets
2.3 het Pied
0.6 50% poss het pied
1.1 Pastel (male has additional gene going on with him)
a bunch of normal female breeders
a bunch of normal female holdbacks and several rescued normal males

0.1 columbian boa, she's a feeding monster, controls my
over production of rats, lol
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa, another rat eating monster
1.1 corns

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

Great points. I agree with a slightly increased risk to the snake with increased prey weights (one would argue that as prey size increases in response to snake size so does the structural aspects of the snake, i.e. intestine wall width, muscle mass, bone density.) Still, as I mentioned, risk to all involved with standard box feeding regimen becomes a preventative factor with the giants. So what are your opinions on the trap box idea, which only involves the snake moving itself and removes its exposure to stimulus outside the box such as cage cleaning (with the assumption of an opaque box)?

Good points on not doing anything other than feeding on feed day. I am not consciously as strict about this but I think I'll start giving it better attention.

Thanks for the input.

Cool idea.

I am completely against removing a large constrictor to feed it somewhere else (for obvious reasons to anyone who has actually kept BIG constrictors and am surprised that people still bring it up and consider it. With hook training there's no need.

But your idea is nice if you can do it. And I like the idea of the fed snake returning to a fresh, clean home with fresh, clean water. It's neat if you have the space for that kind of setup. Really neat.

For the life of me, I cannot understand why people still think that physically bringing the animal out of the cage to feed it is good. It defies logic. They don't want to associate the hand entering the cage with food, yet they'd rather associate HANDLING with food. Huh? A hook tap on the head disengages feeding response. But a retic that's just eaten outside the cage may still want a bit more... and here you come.

Feeding response is a powerful thing. Once you've set it in gear...

B.

i can only speak for my self but there is no way i would try to feed any of my retics out of cage,mine range from a yearling albino to a 20ft het and they just dont go off feeding in an hour or two, i have a super tiger that never goes off but just a little nudge with a hook and i can pull her out, the seperate space for feeding does work well, on my 20 footer i have her in a 10 foot cage which i do have a way of blocking off one half at a time for safety in cleaning and such, also when i feed i always feed on the same end of the cage and if im going to handle i go thru the other end of the cage, retic's are very smart and they will learn from what you do if you are consistent in your ways of doing things with them.
GOOD LUCK, JIM...