Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I just got a monitor and know I should leave it alone and allow it to trust me over time. I've read and talked to lots of people and I understand why we need to earn their trust over time. Husbandry is fine, got the basics down(130 basking, 85 ambient, hides throughout-nice and tight, humidity, water bowl, temp substrate for now-cypress mulch, night time in low 80's,).
The thing is, I've read some people's experiences and they have gone a different route. They've handled constantly, and recommend it because of their success at molding a "pet". The question I ask myself is: Do I want a monitor that acts like a monitor or a pet. Not to say I will ever have a "pet" regardless of what I attempt to do.
Why is it that we feel we need the interaction? Why is it that we feel if we don't "handle it" they will never allow it in the future?
I'm just going through the "new monitor phase" of owning a monitor. Someone please knock some sense into me!!!!!!

P.S. No I haven't been messing with it,,,,just got the urge.....

With the exception of niles that I used to have (and one peachthroat), I have always handled all of my monitors (to an extent).

This depends largely (but not soley) on the species. What type of monitor did you just acquire? I have always handled all of my previous black roughnecks, argus and kimberlies, etc… but each species is different and will react differently to you and therefore must be treated differently. For instance, I have had a good number of black roughnecks, all were obtained as babies and all were handled throughout their growth. None ever seemed to mind being held and all of them readily took food from me. None ever seemed afraid or concerned that I was there and pretty much ignored me when I cleaned out their cages or water bowls.

The Kimberly rocks monitors that I raised were a bit different. Most were a bit flighty and were left alone outside of cleaning out the cage, weighing them, etc… However, there was several that were unlike the others in which did not mind being handled and one even used to walk right out onto my arm freely.

Argus/flavi’s that I have kept would squirm when handled, in typical argus fashion. They did not seem afraid of being held, but just did not like it too much so they were respected in that way. I had one flavi-argus mix that would bite lightly when held so that was his way of telling me to leave him alone. I had another from the same clutch that was the opposite and would freely come out of the enclosure and walk on my arm, etc…

Additionally, I once had a full grown mangrove monitor (back in 1990) that did not mind at all being handled and also ate directly from forceps. The same year I had a peachthroat that would try to bite me when I changed his water bowl or clean his cage.

Niles, every nile I had hated being handled and I was bitten by each and every one of them at some point. I did have one that never bit until one day when he started getting bigger, wham! I was not surprised, as getting bit is a part of nile monitor keeping at one point or another. Great monitors but must be respected!

So, it depends on the species, and two, keep in mind that there are individuals within each species which can be different from the rest.

Monitors are really not pets, and really should not be sitting on peoples arm when walking around the house, watching tv, etc… -just my opinion. I have heard many stories of people losing their monitors when trying to engage in such activities with them. To me monitors and captive reptiles in general are more of a chance to study and learn from these interesting animals.

Should one hold their monitor? Sure, depending on the individual monitor and as long as the animal does not seem stressed or upset by it. And yes, when you first obtain a new monitor, it is always a good idea to give it time to get used to it’s new surroundings. For instance, I just got a new baby melinus about a week and a half ago, and for the first day it was a bit nervous and stayed out of the open, but after a couple of days and after getting accustom to it’s new home it is very calm and does not hide. Even though I do not handle it often (since it is very young), it does not mind at all being handled and does not run or move away when a human hand enters it’s cage. It has established it’s daily routines, is very active, dug tunnels, etc… and will even take a cricket right from my hand.

Best of luck,
Lou

I have never liked handling reptiles. But i cant say its horrible unless i have tried it. I do enjoy it but they dont seem to enjoy it.

I have been working with my little storrs. They love to eat. So I did what FR said. You feed them. Get their trust. I didnt handle them for a year but i hand fed them. Then i started to put the crickets in my hand. Thun up my arm. Then they had to climb on my hand when they want to eat. Luckily they are small so they wont really hurt you. Now they crawl on my hand whenever they are hungry. Now its kinda a pain hahaha. You put your arm in there to change the water or other stuff and they are on your arm. So you have to kinda untrain them.

By the way, ambient temps should be lower. Also wood chips suck.

Cheers,
Sean

ambient temps could be lower, sure. but cypress "sucks"?

it is a distant second choice to a good soil, but it is better than a poor soil, and works very well for lots of things, especially young monitors. it isn't ideal, but it doesn't "suck".
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

I use good, clean soil with a nice layer of ground coconut substrate on top. Wood chips can be swallowed and cause impactions. The coconut substrate holds moisture nicely for humidity but also dries out fast in-between watering.

what causes impactions? what wood chips? cypress is a shredded product.

cypress does MOST of what you need. it doesn't nest well, but folks here are talking about KEEPING monitors, not always breeding. breeding is for the 1% of 1% of keepers here.

we have kept thousands and thousands of monitors on cypress, it has worked well for a very long time. you can literally take it out of the bag, toss it in the cage, and be off and running.

a good soil is better, but what is a good soil? i don't see you posting that info...

i would bet that 7 out of 10 keepers that try a soil substrate get it wrong again and again. getting a good soil is a MUCH harder task and is a subtle and nuanced accomplishment.

it is just silly to say cypress "sucks". especially when you go on to talk about "wood chips" and "coco bark". cypress is better, and different, than either of those.

astro turf sucks. straight play sand sucks. there you go.
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

In my opinion yes. That stuff stinks for monitors. Its harder for a burrow and its bad nesting (if your monitor does nest). I dont think monitors like it much. You can test it out. Compared to dirt(correct dirt) or leaf litter or even a mixture of it, it does suck. I can see if you mixed it in with sand or something. If you use it correctly it wont suck. But how many people do?

Cheers,
Sean

Hey Sungazer,
Cypress mulch is good for baby monitors that are in transition of being acclimated. That's why I wrote temp-substrate.......Once all is peachie, it will go into a more long term enclosure with a soil/leaf litter substrate. Thanks for your thoughts....
Grimly

excuse me if I overlap what others have said, as i do not have time to read them all.

But your approach is good. Maybe a little cooler nighttime and cool end in the day.

About a pet. I love monitors that are my pet. I train them to trust me and use positive reinforcement. That is, I gain their trust by including me it their needs. I have a lot of monitors, so normally I work with one for a while, then another, etc. Sooner or later, all have some degree of trust in me.

As far as I can tell, monitors are a perfect subject for positive reinforcement. They will do anything for food. They also feed on small items, which means you can use repetition.

Also their natural ability to remember what got them food, is a real plus. For instance, if you feed in one corner, they will go to that corner(very simple yes) If you feed out of a white bucket, they know their being fed when they see the white bucket. If you have a feeding routine. Like going to a place to get a thing, then going to another. They will pick out the little details that differ from feeding time, to other times.

With the above understood, WHY WOULD ANYONE WANT TO FORCE A WILLING ANIMAL. They are so easy to condition, why would you want to use negative reinforcement(forced handling)

Again it boils to this. There are easy ways and hard ways, DUD! pick the easy way that has no ill effects on the monitor. There are fun ways and forceful ways, DUDE I take fun everytime.

The problem is, so many people think they have to overpower a lesser animals. To control it. To force it. In order for them to feel better about themselves.

All in all, monitors want to work with you. Not need to force your worthless self on them. You see, when you force yourself on them, you are worthless to them. With positive reinforcement, you have value. You have something they want. In that, even when your not giving them food, your of value, because they need you.

Enjoy the pics. Cheers

Thanks FR.
I needed to be smacked up side the head. It's those damn human tendencies that get in the way of good intentions for our monitors. I was feeling weak and wanted to have the monitor on my terms, but it's over. A temporary lapse of reason. I know better, but these urges happen. I pick the easy way..........

I had a female lacie that liked me. I treated it no different then any other monitor, except, it was on of my first hatchling lacies.

For some reason, she liked me. Everytime I went into her cage, she would come over and lay on me and sit there. Hmmmmmmmmmm I liked that. I cannot believe anyone wouldn't like that. She did it own her own accord.

But yes, I understand wanting a monitor that becomes one with you. I just don't understand forcing them. Cheers

People are naturally controlling and impatient. Force handling, they think, gives them the instant gratification they seek. They are not willing to put forth the effort and take the time to gradually win trust. They would rather beat the beast into submission.

i use dried human fecies as a substrate for my monitor....just kidding. i use that 'eco earth' add water and it expands and dries substrate, and it works well. i believe its coconut bark?
anyways about the whole 'forcing' the monitor to be handled rather than conditioning it....wouldnt it still be conditioning the animal if you are constantly(daily,weekly etc...) forcing it to be handled? dont take this the wrong way (that its the humans way or no way) but if you keep handling the monitor i think they are smart enough to realize that eventually it is okay, and will become more of a 'pet', just as they are smart enough to be conditioned with food. in no way did i buy a monitor strictly to become a pet though. i know better.

im currently experiencing the same with my sav and letting her tell me if shes gonna let me handle her or not. she does alot better with being handled in the mornings, (probably cause she is groggy and still half asleep lol) but it is a start, and i think she trusts me, and eventually she will be alot less timid than she is now. she eats non stop and im currently constructing a large enclosure for her. by the way....how can i tell if it is actually a 'her'?

balls and choads-

rappstar609