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This morning all six eggs from my het to het pied hatched out. This is a first, so very exciting. First time breeders for both. Well, the first one out was an awesome pied. Head and neck normal orangeish, and a tad orange before the tail. Tail is white as well as rest of body. It is the 5 others that my questions are about. The bellies are all crystal clear white. Two or three are even white up the sides alittle. Those also have the white going up the sides by the vent. One of these (at least one) have just a tad of orange connecting the white. So the question is, are these all ringers? Could the one with with alittle orange be a low white pied? And are all 5 of the normal looking ones 100% het, since they all are clear white bellies without any black anywhere. I know I seen the het markers on some of these, bordering most of the white. Not just by the vent, but up the whole belly. Or I should say more on the side. This was only checking for about a minute each, for I didn't want to stress the newbies out.
I searched ringers, and I am to the understanding that they aren't always hets. Same with the het markers. But since these are from a het to het breeding, is it more likely?
What is the main difference between a ringer and a 100% het or even a ringer and a pied? I know that statisically, out of 4 that two should be hets, one normal, and one pied, but out of all 6 of these, with one pied, all the others look really high white. Any help would be great. I am happy anyway, and plan on proving them out. Thanks for all replys.

and maybe we can all help you out!

If they have an aberrant pattern and normal head than they should be pieds. But I am not an expert,
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Brian n Chrissy

www.cb-reptiles.com/
"snakes are kind of like potato chips, you cant have just one"

If they have solid white bellies and a little white coming up the sides, it sounds like they're low white pieds. Unless their white bellies are bordered by black lines, then they're hets with good pied markers.

Post pics, we can help more if we see what you're talking about.
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~* Jen *~

Pink Lady Constrictors

I just checked them again, and most of them are bordered by straight black lines except two. One these, the black is faded and higher up the side, not right off the belly.
I was to post pics, but my olympus isn't letting me. I trying photo bucket and it isn't working exactly.
Anyway, maybe the one that slightly goes up with the black line fading is a very low pied? It is also the one with a slight orange blemish. Some of the hets/normals are brighter yellow than others too. Well, I will keep my fingers crossed. They may look different in a few weeks I guess as well.
One of the others that had white going up, now that white looks orangish also. Like a orangish white. That orangish kind off looks like it travels down alittle onto the belly. Weird.
Thanks for your help, I am still reading and looking at pics to learn more.

This is what I mean by a low-white pied with a white belly:

This is the het pied marker:

http://www.nextworldexotics.com/hghpm.htm
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~* Jen *~

Pink Lady Constrictors

Raul,

If you read this do you mind posting a picture of your 25% chance het pied girl that proved this year or her other extremely high white het pied indicator belly sister?

All,

Raul produced some 25% het pieds with extreme white bellies coming up the sides. They where from a 50% chance het pied to normal so could not be homozygous pied although one proved het by producing a very high white pied he posted here recently. I have one of his male 25% het pieds (actually 50% now that his sister proved) and while the white doesn't come up the side I have little doubt he is a het pied as he shows a very strong indicator belly.

Hopefully there is some way like the black belly borders to tell where a very good indicator belly het ends and a low white homozygous pied starts. However, I think the potential for getting the two mixed up lends credence to the white bellies being a manifestation of the pied gene when seen in hets. To me the white bellies look a lot like pied trying to creep up from the belly but just not quite making it without a 2nd pied gene to help. Why some het pieds don’t show the belly I don’t know and it’s certainly unfortunate that some normals for pied have similar ringer belies so it’s not a 100% sure thing but I still think very useful when seen in known possible het pieds.

fullhousereptile,

Congratulations on the clutch and good luck verifying more than one homozygous pied. However, it sounds like you may not have any that aren't at least hets. Although still technically any non pieds would be 66% chance in this clutch I wouldn't give any of the females away if I where you. Did either/both 100% het parents have nice belly markings?

Both Parents had the clear bellies and het pied markers by the tail. Their white did not creap up in places though. Their white also stopped completely in the middle of the belly where the scales are different. Some of these creap up to that next layer of scales going up. Remind me of mojave bellies, haha.

Any pictures of the parents? Are these ringers?
In Holland one man bred ringerxringer and the babies look like this:

White bellies and a long ventral stripe..

It sounds like you've got pretty good possible hets. I'd be holding back the females to prove them out in a few years. Low white pieds don't always have the classic wide stripe down the back, but the pattern is still abberent and they don't have black lines bordering their bellies. Here is a low white with abberent pattern...

Here is a possible het that shows the markers. It sounds like yours are ringers, though so the black lines are even more pronounced, and sometimes higher up on the body.

PiedPeddler,

Awesome way to get both belly and dorsal in the same photo! Are you using glass a few inches over a mirror? Very helpful post.

In a later post fullhousereptiles wrote:

"I just checked them again, and most of them are bordered by straight black lines except two. One these, the black is faded and higher up the side, not right off the belly"

So maybe there is another pied or two in this clutch in addition to some nice likely hets.

fullhousereptiles,

Is it a problem just getting the pics to post or getting them off the camera? Maybe you could e-mail them to someone to post for you? Exciting clutch!

I can get the pictures to download to my hard drive. But I can not get them to down load them to an internet area like photobucket or the kingsnake one. It says from where do you want to upload from? So I go to my Olympus master and then it says basically sorry, wrong area.
It might be a few days, but I might be able to get a friend to give it a try. Thanks though.

You have to download the pics to your My Pictures folder or somewhere else on your C drive, then upload from there to Photobucket. You can't upload directly from your camera with Photobucket.
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~* Jen *~

Pink Lady Constrictors

Yep, glass an inch or 2 above a mirror. I came up with that last year because I had lots of 66% possible hets to sell and everybody wanted to see the belly shots.
Paul

Sounds to me like you have a bunch of 66% possible hets. If they were low white pieds you would know - theres not much mistaken them - even the lowest white pied has a swirled body pattern and noticeable pied belly - if you have body pattern or "het markers" they are hets not pieds. White will have a tendency to creep up the belly on normal balls as well - ringers you'll have varying degrees of white with orange and pattern swirled around the general area but the rest of the pattern will be normal.

Some additional reading:

Hunters guide to pieds and ringers

Hunters guide to het pied markers

But since these are from a het to het breeding, is it more likely?

Can the het marker be passed to normals? Absolutely can normals have ringers absolutely - genetic statistics are what they are - raise em - breed em - prove em.

What is the main difference between a ringer and a 100% het or even a ringer and a pied?

Genetics and a couple thousand dollars.

Congrats on the babies and good luck!
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Tosha
JET Pythons

(CJBianco explaining the origins of the BP market.)
"In the beginning Bob created the Ball Python market. And the market was without morph, and wild traits were upon the industry. And Bob said, Let there be morph, and there was morph. And Bob saw the morph, that it was good; and Bob divided the morph from the wild trait. And Bob called the morph Albino, and the wild trait Normal. And the Albino and the Heterozygous Albino were the first investment.
-- Christopher 1:1-1:5"