Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Banded ws (Nerodia fasciata fasciata), Broad-banded ws (Nerodia fasciata confluens) or Florida banded ws (Nerodia fasciata pictiventris)or some hybrid?

http://www.herppi.net/gallery/albums/userpics/12578/ramses%7E0.jpg
http://www.herppi.net/gallery/albums/userpics/12578/maija-ramses.jpg
http://www.herppi.net/gallery/albums/userpics/12578/kokovertailua.jpg (on the left side)

Banded ws (Nerodia fasciata fasciata), Broad-banded ws (Nerodia fasciata confluens) or Florida banded ws (Nerodia fasciata pictiventris)or some hybrid?

It just looks like a normal fasciata to me. It certainly doesn't show any evidence of being a hybrid (between fasciata and another species). It might be an intergrade between two subspecies of fasciata, but for that you will have to check the field guides/keys.

I have seen a lot of confluens in eastern TX and it really doesn't look like one of those to me, but maybe they look like that further east or north?
-----
Chris Harrison
San Antonio, Texas

Ok =) My baby of those two snakes in the last pictures look like this, also normal looking N. f. fasciata?

I seldom disagree with Chris, but the belly markings make me say the snake is confluens.

~~Greg~~

Greg,

I think you misunderstood my use of fasciata. I was implying it is 100% Nerodia fasciata as opposed to a hybrid, not the subspecies N.f. fasciata.

It doesn't look like the confluens we get here in eastern TX, but as you move east, I bet you see more and more inclination towards the N.f.fasciata pattern. I suspect it is a snake from somewhere along the gulf coast where those two subspecies come together.

I find confluens to be quite beautiful snakes, that one isn't. Here's a couple of east TX fasciata for comparison

-----
Chris Harrison
San Antonio, Texas

Yes, I know it is a Nerodia fasciata. When I said "hybrid", I ment intergrade hybrid. So that one is probably not N. f. confluens and porbably not N. f. fasciata either? Maybe hybrid between them?

Well then I have an other question, about my snakes mother which have been bred with that who's ID I just asked.

I didn't find any good pics, but here's a couple. Does it look like a fasciata or pictiventris?

http://www.herppi.net/gallery/albums/userpics/12578/mooses.jpg
http://www.herppi.net/gallery/albums/userpics/12578/kokovertailua.jpg (on the right side)
http://www.herppi.net/gallery/albums/userpics/12578/mossu-sy_.jpg

Anthon,

Sorry, I guess I misunderstood. Hybrid is a term that is usually reserved for cross between two separate species while intergrade usually implies a cross between subspecies.

As for the identity of your snake, I don't have any idea more useful than what you could get out of any field guide. However, remember it is quite possible that your snake isn't N.f.fasciata, N.f.pictiventris, or N.f.confluens. These three subspecies intergrade over a large area, AFAIK, and so there will be a lot of snakes that can't be pigeonholed into one particular taxon.

Do you know where they are from?
-----
Chris Harrison
San Antonio, Texas

Okay, Chris. I was just going by field guide pix myself, & the belly markings look too much like confluens to rule it out. It must indeed be an itergrade, but of course knowing where it came from precisely to begin with would have made this whole thing a little easier.

~~Greg~~

LOL!!! precisely!....that's why I didn't really want to get involved.....the post went on for quite a while without any mention of where the breeding stock came from!

Both of you guys had some valid points,.....in central Florida when I go fishing with my buddy, I've spent more time grabbing Nerodia than fishing!!....I see them swimming from a distance, then run around the lake to go were I think they will be by the time I get there. Then just wait motionless to wait for them to swim right up to me at the waters edge......then BAM!! every time.

Also, many of them have a myriad of color and pattern differences in the same lake!.....they intergrade so freely it's rediculous........fasciata/pictiventris, and anywhere thereof, they are all just watersnakes to me.....although pictiventris does quite literally mean "painted/pictured belly!!LOL

Take care guys!

~Doug

-----
"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Both of those snakes came from a local pet shop, so I(and the breeder) don't know where are they actually came from. I'm asking this because I'd like to know (even approximately) and know how tho write my snake's (which is a crossbreed between those two snakes whose ID I just asked) scientific name (may it be an intergrade hybrid like Nerodia fasciata fasciata x Nerodia fasciata confluens, or even [Nerodia fasciata fasciata x Nerodia fasciata confluens] x Nerodia fasciata fasciata or maybe just Nerodia fasciata fasciata)Here is a picture of her, once again.

Pic

Well, just like you, I too like to know EXACTLY what animals I own to the subspecific level. Your watersnake is a very tough call due to the lack of locality and all the extreme variation they can exhibit.
But as far as I can tell, especially with the pic when it was young,....that it is "pictiventris". I say this because of the dark spots between the bands on the side(less so in fasciata), and also because of the red worm-like checkering on the belly.
Don't take this as me saying it is "pure", because it could VERY WELL have influence from other gene-flow. There's just absolutely know way to know,....period!

Like I said, there could be intergradation there, but it is in no way a "hybrid",....that technically is an animal derived from two unrelated species or genus, not subspecies,....especially two subs that are in an "overlap" zone.

In any case, enjoy what you have!......it is what it is.

I don't claim to be a taxonomist, but that's the best I can do, others will always disagree on things like this, but that's usually expected!!LOL

best regards, ~Doug
-----
"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"